Round Pen/Longing-To Turn (In) or Not To Turn (In) - Page 2 - The Horse Forum
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post #11 of 19 Old 11-26-2013, 07:22 PM
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For me it depends on what I'm working on and if I'm lunging in a round pen or on a line. In a round pen I use both turn in and turn out. I use turn out to teach the horse to sit on their haunches and roll back. This is used in a lot of western disciplines under saddle. I teach the horse to go off of different ques for different turns and stops. If I want the horse to turn in I give them lots of space, if I want the horse to roll back I step into them. I also teach the horse to stop and stand. If told to "whoa" the horse is to stop and stand still in the direction they are moving. This allows me to either ask for forward motion again, a turn either in or out, or for the horse to come to me.

If I'm using a lunge line I always ask for a turn in so the rope doesn't get messed up. On the line I teach the horse to move the shoulders both directions so they can stop and turn quickly if asked. The horse is never to step into my space unless asked there first. If I'm asking for a turn they are to do it at the end of the line and just sit back and turn their shoulders around (this takes lots of practice on shorter ropes before it can happen on the end of the lunge line). Again if they are told "whoa" they are to stop and stand facing the direction of travel until told what to do.
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post #12 of 19 Old 11-27-2013, 09:11 PM
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Originally Posted by dznyntnh View Post
turn towards him completely...when they finished working a side on the longe line or in the round pen. He told me that this showed that they were listening and you had their attention.
If they stand at attention, or move when & how you ask them, in whatever position, they're obviously paying attention to you, not just when they are facing you.

It's not any more 'aggressive' IMO than it is 'disobedient' for a horse not to turn & face you when you request. Like thinking of a horse walking either beside or behind you(take your pick, depending on who you've listened to... or a dog walking through a door before it's owner) is 'disrespectful'. It's just what they've learned - or not. IMO the horse may well be 'disrespectful', 'aggressive', whatever, but it's got nothing to do with that particular behaviour.

Another girl who works at the ranch was helping me to longe different horses and she said that turning in was a 'Western thing' and stopping in place was an 'English' thing.
I think that's more accurate. So maybe my approach of teaching the horse to go/do/stop however I ask, be that facing me, out on the circle or otherwise is an Australian thing?? I teach lunging as an extension of other basic training - it's about teaching/reinforcing responses at a distance. Just as I want my horse to 'face up' & approach me when I come to the paddock or when I signal it, but I want him to stand squarely side-on when I want to mount, I teach this when lunging too.

I also don't have a problem with the idea of a horse turning away from me on a circle *assuming I cue it & the horse isn't trying to escape or some such*. I want them to learn to move in whatever direction, regardless where I am in relation to them. I also drive horses, do lots of bush riding & walking and frequently lead more than one horse, sometimes on narrow, windy trails, where one's in front & one's behind, so I do find lots of 'purpose' for that principle.
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post #13 of 19 Old 11-27-2013, 10:40 PM
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As far as I'm concerned, whether you have a horse stop without turning toward you or whether you ask them to stop and face up is a completely personal preference. When I'm lunging a horse, I want them to face toward me when I ask for the stop but they are not permitted to approach at all. I've had too many customer horses come through that had been taught "when I ask you to stop, then I want you to turn and walk toward me" and when they blew up under saddle, their first instinct was to come right at me. Most the time I was able to either drive them away or get myself out of the way, but I do have scars and I ended up with a lot of bruises from horses that would not be dissuaded from bucking right over the top of me.

As for changing directions, on a normal lunge line, I want them to turn toward me but they aren't allowed to cut the circle. I expect them to stay on the same line when they turn around as they were, much like a reining rollback. However, if I am long lining them, they have to turn away from me. BUT, by that point, they are normally beyond the stage of "maybe thinking about kicking".
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post #14 of 19 Old 11-28-2013, 01:10 AM
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Hope this helps;[/I] whether you are round penning or lunging the horse should turn in and face you. If it is a very agressive horse that you are not familar with you may turn it to the outside otherwise the horse should turn in.

1. Drive away to the left in one direction [sub ordinance]
2. Maintains direction - 4 turns around the pen to the left [focus & leadership]
3. Establish a dialogue begins turning to the inside, facing with two eyes (trust)
4. Turns to the outside [disrespect]
5. Turns to the inside [respect]
6. Drive away to the right in one direction [sub ordinance]
7. Establish a dialogue begins turning to the inside, facing with two eyes (trust)
8. Turns to the outside [disrespect]
9. Turns to the inside [respect]
10. Establish a dialogue begins turning to the inside, facing with two eyes (trust)
11. Shakes Head from side to side [disrespect]
12. Kicks out when ask to change gaits [disrespect]
13. Lowers head to ground, mouthing or looks in to the handler [communicating]
14. Control his speed at a trot & canter (communication)
15. Turning to the inside and changing directions to the Right trust & communication]
16. Turning to the inside and changing directions to the Left trust & communication]
17. Joining behaviour [communication, trust & leadership]
18. Following behaviour [communication, trust, respect & leadership]
19. Control the gaits; walk, trot & canter [communication & leadership]
20. At the end of session - Stands still & accepts halter [trust, respect & leadership]

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post #15 of 19 Old 11-28-2013, 01:47 AM
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^^^Also, a pet peeve of mine. I don't want a horse to come into my space uninvited.
Whoa means whoa, so when I tell them to stop I want them to stop not approach me.

So in lies the madness, the pursuit of the impossible in the face of the complete assurance that you will fail, and yet still you chase.
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post #16 of 19 Old 11-28-2013, 03:11 AM
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Agree mobiletrainer, that your list can indeed mean those things. I disagree that they *necessarily* do though, so don't like the idea of putting an emotional lable to specifics on a list like that. It's inaccurate pigeonholing IMO. Also have a bit of a problem with the lables & concepts 'respect' and 'disrespect' because for one they mean different things to different people, and don't find they're particularly helpful in te aching people why or how.

Just a few possible alternate reasons for the exercises on your list to consider...

1. (escape/fear)
3. (because it's been taught)
4. (because they've been taught or for escape)
5. (because they've been taught or 'aggressive' or dominant attitude)
11.(dominance 'games')
12.(frustration, confusion or fear)
13.(giving up)
17.(has been taught)
20.(has given up, resigned or shut down)
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post #17 of 19 Old 11-28-2013, 09:12 AM
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OP -Your right there is a whole lot of grey in training. There are correct ways of doing things, but if it isn't getting the desired results then you need to improvise.
I would keep things simple at first. Work on one thing like turning in then once you've got that down add something else.

So in lies the madness, the pursuit of the impossible in the face of the complete assurance that you will fail, and yet still you chase.
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post #18 of 19 Old 12-02-2013, 05:29 PM
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My dressage instructor likes the horse to stand on the line, the cowboy/trainer/horseman (whose methods I follow) likes the horse to turn in and face me, but not to come into my space.

I did the dressage way (I am a dressage rider) didn't work for my 4 yr old. The turning in is much more effective in getting a horse to pay attention to you and learn that at all times you are leader and eyes are on you.

Cowboys know how to train for behavior and manners better than anyone I've worked with. Listen to them!

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post #19 of 19 Old 12-03-2013, 10:55 AM
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I like for the horses I train to turn in. I believe I have their attention and respect when they have their eyes on me awaiting my next cue. I wouldn't allow any horse trained or untouched to point that double barrel at me XD
However turning in doesn't mean I want the horse to approach me, I establish respect and make them stand at distance to await my next cue(direction change). If I want them to come in to me I invite them into my space by drawing them in.
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longing , round pen , stopping , training , turning in

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