Rude and disrespectful horse. Any suggestions? - Page 2
   

       The Horse Forum > Training Horses > Horse Training

Rude and disrespectful horse. Any suggestions?

This is a discussion on Rude and disrespectful horse. Any suggestions? within the Horse Training forums, part of the Training Horses category

    Like Tree1Likes

     
    LinkBack Thread Tools
        09-25-2008, 10:35 PM
      #11
    Weanling
    I hate to ask this because I don't know you personally but its kind of...mandatory I guess, when you stop her are you pulling the reins up towards your chest or down near your mid-drift? She might have a sensitive mouth and IF you are pulling up towards your chest she might be reacting to get rid of the uncomfortable feeling, my horse used to do the same thing if I angled the reins a bit to high, he never gave me a burn but he would try to get rid of the feeling.
    If you are pulling towards your mid-drift try pulling gently then releasing then a TINEY BIT harder then release until she is at a complete stop.
    You could also check her bit and see if it is pinching her when it moves around in her mouth that could be something.
    Does she back up for you? If she does is it a good back or an 'i-dont-want-to-but-i-will' back? Is her response to the bit immediate or delayed? I guess would be a better question...
    Mmm...i can't really think of anything else...except my own opinion on the whip issue but I would rather like to keep that can of worms unopened for...argumental reasons I suppose lol
         
    Sponsored Links
    Advertisement
     
        09-26-2008, 12:57 AM
      #12
    Green Broke
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by iridehorses
    Beating a horse is not a substitute for proper training. A crop or whip is used to enforce an cue not for discipline.

    Repetition is the way to train a horse, not fear. Personally I don't learn by being bullied or smacked.
    Sigh. No, a whip does not "train" a horse, but it can be a very effective tool for reinforcing your aids, or as punishment. How do you tell your horse that the behavior is unacceptable? "No horsie, that's not what I want..." I don't think he's going to understand, lol.

    Of course the whip is not your first line of defense, but if the horse is behaving so badly that the rider is nearly jerked off the horse, or ends up with rope burns, then something must be done. Ground work is great, but this person says her groundwork is pretty solid. If that is so, then this horse has some learned behavior that needs to be corrected. Not all of us have 2-3 hours a day, 7 days a week to "train" our horse. Some of us work, have families, and other responsibilities. So, a quick SMACK with a whip when an undesired behavior manifests itself is just the ticket!

    Also, to the other poster, a horse's hide is a lot thicker than your own skin... Hence why they aren't so easily injured with they kick or bite at each other.

    Parelli, or whatever guru you two are using, is NOT "the god" of horse training... I use many NH methods in my day-to-day training/handling of my horses, but "traditional" methods work too. They're not "traditional" for nothing. None of my horses are head shy, whip shy, or otherwise "shy". They nicker with they see me, meet me at the gate, and seem to enjoy our time together, in and out of the saddle.

    Horses are NOT a partnership, not 100%. Horses, just like people and other animals, need LEADERSHIP. You cannot attain leadership AND a partnership at the same time. You can have a willing 2nd in command, which is a type of partnership, but with you in a superior role. A true partnership ends up with the human at the bottom of the pecking order, unless you're lucky enough to have a horse that doesn't want the leader role (or is just too stupid or lazy to take it). The OP's horse sounds neither stupid or lazy 8).

    A horse cannot reason or understand like a human. To personify a horse is pure folly. A horse is an animal. They can be loving and should not be mistreated, but they are still an animal. We as their handlers/trainers need to understand the horse as an animal, using their own behavior as a guide as to how we should treat them. Horses use pressure release and punishment on each other. Punishment comes quickly from the herd leader when pressure-release doesn't work. It comes in the form of body language, goes to running the offending horse off, then escalates to physical punishment. It's not rocket science, it's just common sense & herd observation.

    Again, there are many, MANY ways to train a horse. Learn from all avenues and take what works for you; keep the rest tucked away for future reference .
         
        09-26-2008, 01:05 AM
      #13
    Green Broke
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by SonnyWimps
    Horseback riding is a partership....a 51%-49% partnership...you have the most so you ARE the lead horse, but you also have to learn to respect your horse. Your horse will respect you if you respect the horse. Same with your relationship with your parents...as long as you respect them, they will respect you. If you get mean and cruel to them, they won't want to take you out to the mall or so you can hang out with your friends. The MINUTE you get mean and harsh with a horse, you are no longer a partner or friend...you are a predator!!
    First, I understand what groundwork is.

    Second, how do earn your horse's respect if you're not willing to "act like a horse"? Bore them to death with endless "games"? My parents got me to respect them through fair praise and punishment. You don't raise good kids with praise alone... You end up raising whiny kids that get everything they want and no one likes...

    I don't know about you, but when my daughter was 3yrs old and under and she ketp touching something I didn't want her too, she ended up getting her hand smacked! After a couple of smacks, she soon got it all figured out. A horse is like a 3yr old child. They cannot understand logic or reason, you can't put your horse in "time-out", so you have to make your desires PERFECTLY CLEAR. You praise/reward good behavior and punish/discourage bad behavior. It's a pretty simple concept that should be embraced in any good training regiment. What works for your horse and your situation for both the praise and the punishment is up to you to discover, but one type does NOT work for ALL horses.

    This is a public forum. I am sharing my POV, as are you. Just because my advice may differ from yours does not make it any less right or valid; it's just different.
         
        09-26-2008, 02:29 AM
      #14
    Weanling
    I only get physical with my horses when they physically endanger me. When my mare came within inches of kicking me in the face, you bet she got beat with the whip. 1000lbs of hoof coming at your face is going to do a lot more damage to me than I could ever do with a whip to her. She has never tried to kick me again. Biting, Kicking, Rearing, Bucking, depending on the circumstance all get punished. The punishment, also should be immediately (within a few seconds of the incident). However behaviors like bucking and rearing can present themselves for other reasons, poorly fitted equipment.. lack of communication, in those cases punishment is not only unfair but cruel. It's important to know your horse, or have someone more experienced for a second opinion.

    Also, horses do get physical with one another, but generally it is to establish the pecking order and respect. "You disrespected me, now I show you who is superior." Respect between horses and people can be established several other ways, particularly bonding and kindness. I rarely have ever gotten physical (more than the occaisional whip to get his attention) with my gelding, and he will follow me like a lamb. I did not establish that relationship by beating him when he snatched the reins from me (and he has, he doesn't anymore).

    I think there is a line you draw when choosing to use punishment, the punishment has to fit the crime. If my mare is getting pushy with me, she gets a yank on the lead or a slight tug at the bit and she straightens out. It's not fair to use horse's behavior in the wild literally, because horses in the wild do not deal with people, wear bits, or other equipment. If a horse's action is in response to an unnatural variable in their environment (in this case the bit), punishment is not a fair reaction. However, if they are treating you too much like a horse and risking your safety (because they are 10 times+ your weight and have even more strength) then physical reaction IMO is necessary and justified.

    Okay I'm done with my tangent :)

    Jerking the reins however can be solved by other means. Softer hands, a softer bit, groundwork, etc.

    I would first make sure your hands are not too harsh on her mouth, that would be my initial reason why her response to you is snatching the reins. Someone mentioned intervals of pressure to ask her to stop and using your seat and legs more, which are both good points. Then if softer hands does not the solve the problem, I think a softer bit is in call. What bit do you use currently? Because she has been getting away with this from her previous owners, simply softening your hands and changing the bit may not solve the problem. I would go back to the basics then, lunging or long lining with a bit and see if the same problem presents itself. If it does, I would figure out a series of actions you can take to minimize the behavior. When she tugs at the reins, pushing her into a circle until she accepts the bit and becomes supple. Or when she finally halts, asking her to back until she brings her head down and doesn't fight backing. You can also keep a stronger grip on the reins or use a running martingale to give you a little leverage, but I would make sure the problem is not the bit itself first! I would personally use a martingale, but I don't know how experienced you are, and applying that leverage unknowingly can cause a harder mouth on a horse who sounds like she has a relatively soft mouth. If you use a martingale, I would use a second rein (attached to the snaffle) and run it through the martingale, like a curb rein. I would only use the second rein for a little leverage when stopping or turning to help teach her to accept the bit and make it harder for her to fight it. Again, be careful with this, and its only a temporary remedy until she learns not to fight the bit, once she stops trying to snatch, you can take the martingale off and hopefully the issue will be resolved.
         
        09-26-2008, 06:59 AM
      #15
    Weanling
    Luvs2ride, I agree with you completely!
    What I am hearing you say is this: An unruly horse, who is bigger than you, and much stronger than you needs to be *disciplined immediately because they can not reason like humans and needs to know that you are the alpha in the herd.

    *Disciplined is NOT beating a horse, but can mean physical discipline.

    Have you ever watched a horse in a herd? Have you ever seen one of them "discipline" another horse? It is much, MUCH more severe than a mere whip smack. There is NOTHING you can do with your bare hands, or even a whip (with the exception of hitting the face) that can hurt them. Short of a 2 x 4 I couldn't hurt them if I wanted to. (I don't)

    We recently got a new draft cross that is aprox 15.1 hands and about 1400 lbs (he's a bit chubby) We have learned that as far as ground manners go, he doesn't have them. He also is very high on the pecking order. When I go out to feed, I bring a crop with me. And if he deserves it (or any of them) they will get a smack with it to "back off" I CAN NOT HURT ANY OF THE HORSES WITH THE CROP.

    I am all for NH. I have attended several demonstrations, we have a nice wooden round pen, and I use it. But, there are times when a roundpen isn't all that handy. Like out on the trail. Besides the fact that you have 3 seconds to "discipline" a horse. By the time you get to a roundpen they don't know what they did "wrong" I do believe that many things can be corrected with groundwork, but sometimes you don't have time for that.
         
        09-26-2008, 08:05 PM
      #16
    Banned
    Quote:
    Sigh. No, a whip does not "train" a horse, but it can be a very effective tool for reinforcing your aids, or as punishment
    iride never said it's used to train horses, she said it's used to re-enforce cues...it should NEVER be used as punishment, ever.

    Quote:
    but this person says her groundwork is pretty solid. If that is so, then this horse has some learned behavior that needs to be corrected
    If her horse still has a bad behavious her groundwork is NOT solid.

    Quote:
    Not all of us have 2-3 hours a day, 7 days a week to "train" our horse
    It's not a "do this everyday for 4 hours" groundwork....it's a simple working with the horse on the ground before riding, or using the groundwork instead of riding for a day. I definitely would not work a horse 2-3 hours a day 7 days a week even with groundwork.

    Quote:
    Hence why they aren't so easily injured with they kick or bite at each other.
    Horses in the wild know where to aim...yes they don't always hit where they want to, but that's because the other horse moves. THey know the strong parts, and what parts of weak.

    Quote:
    . None of my horses are head shy, whip shy, or otherwise "shy". They nicker with they see me, meet me at the gate, and seem to enjoy our time together, in and out of the saddle.
    Whether your horses are shy of you or not does not mean that your methods of training are right. If you honestly think that beating a horse with a whip because they did something wrong is correct then I fell totally sorry for your horse and hope that you can see how cruel that is. Yes I'm a Parelli fan, but even when I wasn't I would NEVER EVER hit a horse with a whip because he was doing something wrong.

    Quote:
    Horses are NOT a partnership, not 100%
    Maybe you don't picture your horse as a partner, I didn't either if you would have told me that 3 months ago....I was into traditional riding (minus the beating with a whip), and I could see how unhappy my horse was. My horse would NEVER relax, he's ALWAYS spook (ask any one of the girls that I used to ride with) and he would fight back when I asked him to do something. When I estabilished him as my partner not only did he relax, but he wasn't spooky, and he'd listen.

    Quote:
    Horses, just like people and other animals, need LEADERSHIP
    Yes horses need leadership, but they need partnership, love, affection, and friendship. What makes a good leader? One that listens, understands the follower(s), and compromizes so each "wins".

    Quote:
    but with you in a superior role
    Yes you do have the superior command.....never said we didn't

    Quote:
    A true partnership ends up with the human at the bottom of the pecking order, unless you're lucky enough to have a horse that doesn't want the leader role (or is just too stupid or lazy to take it).
    I have a partnership with my horse, and I'm not at the bottom of the pecking order. He respects my wishes and listens....but he knows that if he can't physically do something I ask him to do I'll compromise with him so he can do what I ask at an easier level.

    Quote:
    should not be mistreated
    Glad you believe that...but how can you believe that but still suggest to whack a horse with a whip?!

    Quote:
    A horse cannot reason or understand like a human
    Don't underestimate a horse

    Quote:
    Second, how do earn your horse's respect if you're not willing to "act like a horse"?
    I never said I didn't know how to "act like a horse". But you don't just go up and hit them because they don't do what you ask. You should respect your horse. I mean honestly...they ARE 1000 lbs (usually) and if they get really upset at you they could kill you with one blow...and there is NOTHING stopping them from doing that. If you treat them as respect they'll respect you and want to do everything you ask them to do...why? Because they know you won't hurt them if they don't understand, can't do something, or you are doing the wrong but not realizing it.

    Sorry but hitting a horse with a whip will NEVER fall in my "right" folder.

    Also, would you slap your daughter when you asked her to do something but she didn't stop, because she didn't understand? Would you hit and punish your horse because he didn't understand what you asked of him? Yes some horses get bored and lazy, but that's becaue they need motivation...and the rider is not giving them any motivation.




    Quote:
    I only get physical with my horses when they physically endanger me. When my mare came within inches of kicking me in the face, you bet she got beat with the whip
    DId you even stop to see why she kicked "at you"? Why she was acting like that? What her reason was? Did you ever stop to see if maybe you were acting like a predator? That YOU (yes you) asked for it? That YOU did something wrong that made her do that?
    Yes, my horse has slammed me up against a wall when he started getting frighened in a stall (because someone was up in the hay loft right above him), but I did not beat him because he put my life in danger. I SAW/heard the reason why he slammed me up against the wall, he wasn't trying to hurt me, he was frightned. Horses are prey animals, and will do anything they can to get away from what frightens them. Just like a kid will tune out a parent if they continue to yell at them, a horse will tune out his owner when he gets frightened. I did not hit him to move, I asked him the same as I would if I was just standing next to him (and not wedged againt the side of the wall), when he didn't respond, I put more pressure until he did move. Once I got out, I praised him for tuning back into me and moving.

    Quote:
    Biting, Kicking, Rearing, Bucking, depending on the circumstance all get punished.
    But as I've said before....a horse HAS a reason for doing this and they don't just say "hey well there's my mom...I think I'm going to bite her arm off today".

    Quote:
    am all for NH. I have attended several demonstrations, we have a nice wooden round pen, and I use it. But, there are times when a roundpen isn't all that handy. Like out on the trail. Besides the fact that you have 3 seconds to "discipline" a horse. By the time you get to a roundpen they don't know what they did "wrong" I do believe that many things can be corrected with groundwork, but sometimes you don't have time for that.
    A roundpen is NOT for discipline and neither should groundwork be used as punishment.





    Back on the real topic: try a one-rein stop. My horse wouldn't do quick stops to save his life, but when I asked him for a quick stop with a one-rein stop, he did it perfectly (so perfectly I flew off his back lol). A one-rein stop will dis-engage her hind-quarters and make her stop[/quote]
         
        09-26-2008, 08:49 PM
      #17
    Trained
    Quote:
    Hence why they aren't so easily injured with they kick or bite at each other.
    I would just like to say that I know of a mare that got in with a stallion and kicked the stallion in its leg and broke it.

    I also put my mare in a paddock with 2 other mares and 1 gelding. Vega got beat up pretty bad and It would have been worse if my BO was not up when she was.

    At my barn there was a rather submissive horse out with 2 other geldings. They were fine for a while until the submissive horse beat the crud out of another gelding. My BO thought she was going to have to call the vet to put the gelding down! That's how bad it was!
    (He has since made a full recovery and the submissive horse was moved to another pasture)

    Horses are capable of serious damage to another horse if they so choose to.
         
        09-26-2008, 10:22 PM
      #18
    Green Broke
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by SonnyWimps
    Yes horses need leadership, but they need partnership, love, affection, and friendship. What makes a good leader? One that listens, understands the follower(s), and compromizes so each "wins".
    Horses in a herd do not "compromise"... The leader is the leader, period.

    And I never said to "beat a horse with a whip." I said, "a good smack/whack". That implies once.

    Okay, I think we can all understand where we disagree here. Let's not continue to beat a dead horse (har har 8) ). Let's let the OP decide which method(s) she learns here and elsewhere will work for her and HER horse.

    There are many ways to train horses. A good trainer/handler learns from all avenues and uses whatever action (or inaction) is best in each situation s/he finds her/himself. All horses and people are different. What works for one person and one horse won't work for all people and all horses.
         
        09-26-2008, 10:26 PM
      #19
    Green Broke
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by appylover31803
    Quote:
    Hence why they aren't so easily injured with they kick or bite at each other.
    I would just like to say that I know of a mare that got in with a stallion and kicked the stallion in its leg and broke it.

    I also put my mare in a paddock with 2 other mares and 1 gelding. Vega got beat up pretty bad and It would have been worse if my BO was not up when she was.

    At my barn there was a rather submissive horse out with 2 other geldings. They were fine for a while until the submissive horse beat the crud out of another gelding. My BO thought she was going to have to call the vet to put the gelding down! That's how bad it was!
    (He has since made a full recovery and the submissive horse was moved to another pasture)

    Horses are capable of serious damage to another horse if they so choose to.
    Well of course they are! All of those situations you mentioned were created by PEOPLE! If the submissive horse(s) had somewhere to run, they would have avoided major injury. It's up to the person responsible for housing the horses to ensure a stable and appropriate herd environment. Mares unknown in the breeding shed should always be kept in-hand and hobbled. It's unfortunate that the stallion owner or handler had to learn that the hard way... If the mare jumped the fence to get in, then the housing arrangement for both was inadequate.
         
        09-27-2008, 01:34 AM
      #20
    Weanling
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by SonnyWimps
    ground work ground work groundwork
    ANY and every problem with a horse can be fixed on the ground.
    If your horse is pulling on the reins, make sure you two aren't pulling too hard on the reins.

    Definitely do NOT take a whip and whack her when she doesn't stop...it's cruel in my opinion. Horses have a good attention span when they are truely in tune with the rider and the rider in tune with the horse. A whip is not a training tool IMO and I never use one nor ever will. There are humane ways (like groundwork) to teach a horse respect besides whacking them with a whip to get their attention.


    Some simply groundwork for respect will solve the problem.
    Also don't simply pull back on the reins...that actually engages the hind-quarters and doesn't particually make them stop. Instead use a simply one-rein stop, not only will that disengage their hind-quarters, but it disengages their mind also so they don't "want" to go forward
    IN MY OPINION:

    I beg to differ...if a problem is "fixed" on the ground, it must also be "fixed" in the saddle. One vantage point does not automatically transfer to the other. You CAN have a dream on the ground and a PIG in the saddle or vice versa. Horses only have the attention span you demand of them...some get very good at teaching YOU how they want to be ridden. And the "one rein stop" isn't a cure all...believe me, I have seen plenty of horses zip around and around because the one rein stop was overused - or they learn to brace and bolt - sometimes with their head completely turned toward the rider's shoe blindly running straight ahead.

    I think the horse we are discussing is a spoiled horse...not a confused horse.
         

    Thread Tools



    All times are GMT -4. The time now is 03:18 AM.


    Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.5
    Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
    Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.6.0