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Saddle Breaking horses REALLY young........

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  • Horse too young for bit

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    07-04-2012, 08:12 PM
  #211
Yearling
Don't worry Oh Vair Oh, I also start my pleasure/hus horses at 2, and I am also not a face ripper offer, torturer, or beauty pageant rider (my butts too big )...

One day we will meet at Worlds or Congress and share a beer over the misguided opinions on this thread - in between showing in hus, wp, and the pattern classes on our cared for, well rounded, well trained, well bred babies.

Now ON WITH THE SHOW !!
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    07-04-2012, 08:22 PM
  #212
Green Broke
I have to admire the dedication..lol

Quote:
Originally Posted by Black Beauty 94    
SHE has a ton of examples for you
A couple of examples out of how many hundreds and thousands of horses....let's do the math...

Just curious BB, how much showing have you done or have you worked around showhorses? It sounds to me like you or basing you are not basing your opinions on

experience.
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    07-04-2012, 09:11 PM
  #213
Weanling
Quote:
Originally Posted by xxdanioo    
Are these horses generally born earlier in the year too? So come time to show they are 2 and a bit?
Yes. If people are breeding with the hope of getting a futurity horse, they try to have them born as close to January 1 as possible.

The show that the two's are at is held in November. They are not permitted to start showing at breed shows until June or July. I don't remember which. So before most of these horses ever hit a show pen, they are over two years old.


Going off on a tangent now....

There are a ton, TON, of horses that are bred specifically for the breed show events that don't make it as two year olds. If they aren't ready, they don't go out because the very last thing anyone wants to do is put a horse out there before it's ready.

One of the things that I think is really disconnected from people that show regularly on the breed circuits and those who own horses just because they like them and are happy trail-riding and such is that breed show people seem more aware that there is a possibility that we will sell the horse. (Long, run on sentence.) We take our horses out where they are seen by trainers and fellow exhibitors who may at some point be shopping for a new horse. If I put my horse on the market, I don't want her being remembered for being a bad loper. So she didn't hit a QH show until she was a strong, able loper.

For example, there is a young up-and-coming stallion who is with a very big name barn whose owner's original intent was to have him show in the 2's at Congress. He wasn't ready. So they sat on him a year, and this spring put him out with an introductory fee and a video of him being ridden at home. And mare owners booked their mares to him because they could see the potential and the quality there. It doesn't hurt at all that he is a sibling to two very, very successful horses (one gelding, one mare). Had he been shown as a two-year-old before he was ready, would he have had the mares booked to him that he did this year? Would people be talking about him as a horse to watch? No, they would remember him as the horse who couldn't lope despite what his famous siblings could do.

Part of the issue when it comes to pleasure horses is that the average Joe's mental picture of a horse is a horse running around with it's mane whipping in the wind. Face it, that's true. People ooh and ahh over pictures of horses that look like that.

Our pleasure horses don't look like that when they come in the pen. We have them going round and looking through the bridle. We cut their manes off. It's not Spirit, or Hidalgo, or Black Beauty or any sort of Hollywood depiction of a horse. There will never be a movie about a western pleasure horse, let's face it.

Unfortunately, for most of the horse-owning population, there is a distinct lack of education as well. The number of people who are showing their horses at the breed show level is very, very small compared to the number of horse owners out there. Let's face it, the average Joe horse owner is someone who rides maybe weekly or a few times a week. They own the horse because they enjoy it. They may take lessons occasionally. They probably enjoy going on trail rides and beach rides. They don't compete or ever plan to compete.

They have basic horse knowledge and since they are not interested in the upper levels of competition, they don't bother to educate themselves about it. Maybe there is some resentment toward the people who do ride at the breed levels (or USEF hunters, or FEI dressage, or whatever) because they don't have the horse-power or the finances to be able to do that. I don't know. But, the bottom line is there a lack of knowledge and often no desire to learn about something with an open mind.
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    07-04-2012, 09:11 PM
  #214
Started
I simply cannot believe this thread is still going.

I know people in racing (firsthand) who don't start their horses too hard too young, race them right, retire them sound, and ALWAYS have the best interest of the horses at heart. I wish they weren't the exception, but the rule.

I know people that love and own and show TWH with a foundation in solid, natural training and don't perpetuate or support the Big Lick showing and style of training with the heavy, unnatural shoes.

I know people and ride dressage myself who do not use short cuts in training and are against rollkur and work their horses properly for lightness and suppleness without overuse or force such as rollkur. I wish people who trained with rollkur never won a show - but the reality is they do, just not all the time, or all of them.

I ride eventing and jumpers. I know high level jumper riders and trainers that train balance and suppleness and responsiveness to the aids and don't believe in big bits and gadgets but prefer the slow and steady and will drop a horse down a level or sell a horse to a lower level rider if they feel it's not in the horse's best interest to stay at GP - EVEN when that horse has won GPs and made it to numerous jumpoffs. Is every jumper rider like this? Unfortunately, no.

I know hunters that believe in balance and rhythm and style, without use of drugs or riding on the fore or just "buying their way into the show ring" by riding horses with poise and balance and movement. Again does that mean every hunter is like this? No. There are hunters that ride on the fore doing the "bump bump release" to get their horse to look "long and low" and relaxed for the flat classes, and use dex or other drugs or inject hocks "just because". But again, that's not everyone.

The list goes on. Halter bred QH. Hatler arabs. Sport arabs. "dumbbloods". I mean really, people...

Any time you make a massive generalization about any discipline, you are grossly misrepresenting YOURSELF as a knowledgeable horse person. ANY horse person worth their salt imo knows that there are two sides to every coin, and good and bad to every discipline. For every positive training method, there is a negative one. For every honest trainer, there is a dishonest one.

Let's do all of ourselves a favor and stop bashing any breed or discipline as overall good OR bad. There is - simply put - NO SUCH THING. That's every bit the same as me coming in here and making racial slurs or religious generalizations. And everybody knows that doing something THAT rude is well, just plain unacceptable.

Come on folks, let's move on.
     
    07-04-2012, 09:15 PM
  #215
Weanling
Quote:
Originally Posted by Black Beauty 94    
Those QH/paints didn't poof into the world moving that slow and painful. The things that are done to those horses to get them to be that way are alot more horrible.
You have no freaking clue what you are talking about, but you will make wild accusations and comments.

This is exactly what is wrong with the horse industry.


And for the record, my trainer's son shows a gelding that is in his twenties and was started as a two.
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    07-04-2012, 10:13 PM
  #216
Green Broke
Quote:
Originally Posted by COWCHICK77    
I have to admire the dedication..lol



A couple of examples out of how many hundreds and thousands of horses....let's do the math...

Just curious BB, how much showing have you done or have you worked around showhorses? It sounds to me like you or basing you are not basing your opinions on

experience.
Well I screwed that sentence up...lol!
What I meant to say was-
"It sounds like you are not basing your opinions from experience"
     
    07-05-2012, 08:50 PM
  #217
Super Moderator
I am stepping in here with a warning. We are done with the back and forth attacks here. If you can't offer constructive comments about the original topic, stay away. We are done with the dramatics. This thread will be kept open a little longer in the hope of going back on topic. If not, kiss this thread good bye.

In the meantime, surgery may be performed on this thread.
     
    07-10-2012, 10:19 AM
  #218
Foal
The one this I don't like to see is such low head carriage, it just seems more like submission to me, but I guess if it is what is sought after in classes such as these, then it is fine so long as it is gained by NATURAL methods, not ropes pulling there heads to their ankles. But its not sad guys, this is what these horses are bred to do? People don't say "Awww that's so sad. Those TBs are out there running their hearts out!" because the majority of those horses LOVE what they do, and to me, WP is the same. Most of the horses competing at this level are talented, natural horses, and you can't force an unnatural horse into this frame and make it this far.
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