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Saddle Breaking horses REALLY young........

23K views 217 replies 60 participants last post by  madeline97 
#1 ·
Another thread brought this to mind, but instead of getting off-topic on someone elses thread I thought I would start my own.

There was an article in Western Horseman a little while back, which I don't have in front of me, but I think it might have been December 2011. Anyway, they were interviewing trainers on their thoughts on riding long yearlings. I mean actual yearlings that wouldn't turn two until the next spring. No one was flatly opposed to it. They all sort of said "if the horse is mature and you take it easy, yadda yadda, yadda."

It kind of makes me wonder, are they wrong in their thinking or is everyone on the internet wayyy too sensitive to the subject?

Now I certainly think riding long yearlings is risky and they are too young to really carry a rider. But how can that be so common in the stock horse industry if the horses are going crippled right and left? Same with race horses. I KNOW it is not in the horse's best interest to start them before they are two, and yet it happens pretty regularly. Are we all just too sensitive? Or are people really sacrificing soundness for show and racing careers? Is it really that bad?

I'm not trying to knock anybody. Heck, I've sat on my (almost) two year old a couple of times. Just sat there bareback for a few seconds while he was standing next to the fence.

I'm talking about folks saddle breaking horses in the fall of their yearling year. I had no idea that even happened. And if it did, I though it was a taboo subject, not something Western Horseman would have an article on in a positive light.

So that leaves me to ponder.......does it really do that much harm? Are these horrible people putting money before the horses? Or are we all overly sensitized here in Internet land?

On this forum the moment someone mentions they've ridden a 2 yr old the collective "we" jumps all over them. But here professionals are doing it as the norm, sometimes before they are even two years old. Thoughts? Did anyone else read the article?
 
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#85 ·
Lack of focus and lack of memory retention. Horses learn by repetition...CONSISTENCY in your way of "asking" and the horse's ability to respond consistently. In the case of my mare, she was extremely busy minded, and youngsters have an attention span....some longer than others. Her attention span was short. So all training needed to be done in short spans of time...and QUITTING before she lost focus. My gelding, quite the opposite....he always had a work ethic and attention span that was eons long. The 3 YO WP prospect I have now, has the same type of focus and attention span, yet...she's going through a growth spurt....so physically, we are paying attention to that.
 
#86 ·
I think breeding plays a BIG part in this debate.

Remembering many breeds mature at a slower rate cold blooded breeds especially.

As for me personally Ella is a wb and I wasn't getting on her till she could go from a gallop to halt to calm walk on the line. I needed her to cope with herself. Because of this method I had to wait.
In the mean time we did other groundwork extensively.

The plan was to start her at 4 But she had an argument with a fence and lost!

She was started at 4y 9 months. First 3 months were w/t month 4 we started cross rails ( 30cm ish) at trot. Halfway through month 5 she started feeling ready for canter so popped a bit if leg on over a jump and got a beautiful canter.

We've started doin some work in a contact as well as a loose rein. Another 4 months and I'll look at mouthing her ready for Pre season hunts next year,

Her age has created a mature horse. Our second ride we got caught in a mini twister complete with flower pots and rocks smashing into us and I couldn't see her head. She stood. Stock still. A year before that would have ended badly.

Of course not everyone should wait as long as I did. I'd prefer to start at 3.5-4 the method I use produces quiet horses so what of I have to wait a year.
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#89 ·
This topic always amazes me....there just is not a definite answer.

Going back to Futurities, they did not end up like they were intended to be when they started, that is for sure. When the original Snaffle Bit Futurity was started, it was intended for showing the same horse and show his progression. For example, the first year you showed a horse in the snaffle or the hackamore, then the next year(if he was ready) you showed him in the two-rein, and finally the bridle, but all with the same horse. It wasn't started just to be a big money marketing deal, it was to showcase a horse and his progression in training.

Anyhow, not all trainers that show in futurities are big money mongers only thinking about fame and fortune, forgeting the welfare of the horses in the process.
(Bob Loomis used to bring his babies in sack them out, turn out until next year, as two year olds they get started, then turned back out until they were ready to be rode)
Some will start colts as two year olds put about 10 to 20 rides on them and make an assessment. The trainer will make a decision on which ones to go with that might make a futurity horse, some may get turned out again but may make a derby horse or culled completely.
HOWEVER, just because a horse is culled, doesn't mean that he goes to the kill pen or that he's not going to make a good horse. He just isn't ready mentally or physically. But will be great later on. Usually those horses end up being great horses for anyone, feedlot riders, ranch horses or pleasure riders. I know of a few "culls" that went on to be great barrel horses or whatever.

The situation differs if the trainer does not own the horse. The owner may have bred their own futurity prospect or bought one for the trainer to train for a futurity. I believe the trainer and owner must be realistic about the expectations. It costs thousands of dollars in training and entry fees to get to a futurity.You can't force a horse to be a winner. He must have the talent and love what he is doing. And just because he isn't prime futurity material doesn't mean he wont make a good derby horse or perfect for a owner to show.

So going back to starting two year olds, I have started a fair pile of two year olds in my career. I have yet to cripple one....knock on wood. It depnds so much on the colt and what he can handle, it is my responsibility to know those limitations. My sessions are very short. I do not spend a lot of time in a roundpen, it is boring for a smart horse and it makes them sticky. As soon as as I see an improvement, I get off. I do that with my older horses as well...no need to drill into the ground. Again they get bored and resentful.


I have seen futurity horses that were started as two year olds go on to lead successful show careers, pack non pros around as well seasoned show ponies then retired as pleasure/trail horses with no problems. I have seen ranch horses started as 5 year olds crippled at 10.
To say that one is better than the other is kinda ridiculous.
 
#90 ·
I don't think it's so much when you start a horse (if done sensibly) as dependent upon it's soundness through it's life as the nature of it's job. You use the horse as an athlete, it will probably has soundness/soreness issues, as most human athletes do. We deal with it, treat the symptoms and keep on in the sport. Some horses deal with soreness differently, some shut down & can't even stand to have a few hairs crossed under their saddle pad, while others like their sport & suck it up, just like humans. Obviously no one here is condoning running the snot out of a baby & jumping oxers, but how we train our athletes is a personal choice and for some trainers, it's a financial choice, it's how they make a living, whether we think it's ethical or not. If you feel racing yearlings is wrong, don't support it, don't go the track, don't watch the triple crown on tv and don't watch the movies about such horses, if everyone did that, you would see things change. Same with futuries, don't watch them or buy them or use the trainer, they will get the message. Pretty much your only power to change things.
 
#91 ·
All I know is I want my horse to be able to be comfortable, happy, sound and still competing FEI dressage when it is 20+ years old and if that means I have to wait until it is a 3 y/o to sit on it, then I will happily wait. (Figuratively... since I don't own a youngster and purposely buy older horses to save myself the wait.)
 
#92 ·
Putting a little dressage spin on it to go with IslandWave's post.
In dressage we're starting to get a huge surge of popularity towards young horse classes. We have FEI 4, 5 and 6 year old tests. The 4 year olds are expected to perform a basic preliminary test, which certainly isn't out of reach for a late 4 year old. The 5 year olds are expected to ride between a novice/elementary, with counter canter, loops, walk-canter-walk and other similar movements. The 6 year olds are expected to perform a medium level test.

Now, when you look at the young horses that are out there doing well in these young horse tests, give them a few years - where have they gone? Funny that the FEI horses tend to be those who did not compete or do so well in the young horse classes.
Some 4 year olds might well be ready for these classes, but most of the warmbloods are not. And many are pushed through before they really should be.

My own youngster, now 20 months, looks hugely like a baby still, I can't even fathom getting on him at this age. I have no problem putting a roller or saddle on, mouthing him etc. But he won't feel the weight of a rider on his back until he is at least a late 2 year old and more likely into his 3 year old year. I have no great desire to show him in the young horse tests - I'm more interested in keeping him physically and mentally sound, keeping him happy and working at the pace he is ready for.

So many horses are ruined along the path of trying to push them into young horse classes, they could be potential FEI horses, but have their brains blown before they turn 7. I don't want this for my youngster.
 
#95 ·
While I uder stand what you are getting at and maybe it is the differeance in breeds or how they are trained as young horses. But Reiners also show FEI and all those horses who compet at that level where Futurity horses so started at 2. They do very well compet getter and better as they get older. Would be interesting to see what the difference is between the horses and how they are trained. B/C those basic test are very very easy in compairison.
 
#94 ·
I can add some input here, coming from a background of starting TB's and reiner's.
Now I just train my own ( and my very bestest friends...LOL)....horses.

Sophie is six, and wasnt started AT ALL. That was 31 days ago.

Because she has physical and mental maturity, she is learning at an amazing

rate.

Because she has physical and mental maturity, any problems that arise during

training, are harder and more dangerous for the rider (me) to fix.

I think working with a young horse periodically during it's formative years, with

lots of pasture time to build wind and limb, is ideal.

I will not give specifics, as this amount of time will vary from horse to horse

and from breed to breed.

I do not think saddle breaking a 2 year old makes them lame, it did not

make my TWH lame, he has many, many miles on him.

But he was ridden just 30 days, walking and turned out until 3.
 
#96 ·
Early hard work can reshape their bone structure. My OTTB had a discernable bow in his back cannon bones from racing at the "accepted" age of 2yo and 3yo. I'm betting you'll get similar stories from others who own off the track racehorses, TB's and others.
IMHO, young horses should be handled and worked with short, regular GROUND WORK. They should also have plenty of turnout with horses their own age, and a herd (minus stallions) so that they have free movement, beneficial to their Mental health, and the mares teach them respect and desensitize them to strange (to them) objects and noises.
You cannot go back and reshape their legs, or fix back injuries that start bc of early and physically demanding work like this.
I am Sure that this is a knee-jerk reaction to all of the dangerous spoiled brats out of the market right now.
 
#98 ·
My OTTB had a discernable bow in his back cannon bones from racing at the "accepted" age of 2yo and 3yo.
You don't happen to have any pictures of his cannon bones handy, do you?

The reason I ask is my gelding was born with a warped cannon bone. I'm sure they look different, but I would be curious what your horses cannon bones looked like.
 
#97 ·
I tend to think that the problem with OTTB has more to with the way they are being bred then being started at 2. Take a look at the lack of bone in many of them. Speed has taken over and to get that something has to go and in this case it has been bone.

If you say that that type of work or any hard work at 3 dose that to a well bred well conformed horse with good bone then you would be seeing this in more QH and you do not.
 
#99 ·
The reason I have an issue with horses being started young mostly stems from the race track I believe. I personally think racing 2 or 3 year olds is wrong and I see the results on a regular basis. TBs around here are a dime a dozen. I often see TBs that did very well in their careers, won their owners lots of money, and now they are 4 and lame or just crazy so are up for sale very cheap, sometimes free. That just makes me angry.

I personally started the only horse I've ever raised as a 3 year old. We did tons of ground work with her before then and I definitely think horses can learn a great deal from that. She didn't start having longer rides till she was 4. Teaching her everything was so simple. It honestly felt like she already knew everything! No bucks, no bolting, and no spooking. Great stop and voice control. Very giving to pressure. And because she knew all that everything else was SO easy to teach her.

BUT... today at around 10 she's only ridden walk trot because a conformation flaw got the best of her...


I think wisdom needs to be used and horses not pushed beyond what is beneficial for them to do. At any age.

And I think stabling young horses so they can't have freedom to move around 24/7 is less natural and far worse for their growing joints than reasonable work started younger.
 
#101 ·
Again I under stand what you are saying and I think it is a differance between English type mind set and western type mind set. I say this b/c with reiners for example out 3yo futurity horses are running the same paterns and being scored the same way that the 4,5 and 6yo derby horses are, and they are doing the same as all the other horses regardless of age. So I am just trying to figure out why a horse would have a problem doing a lower level test and then keep going into a higher level test. Even though the maneuvers in reining do not have all the maneuvers has at the higher level of Dressage they do have all the same things you discribed. Change of pase lead changes and then you add in the stops turns and rollbacks and such. Not to mention what the horse dose at home to refine these maneuvers for the show. So again I am just trying to figure out why our futurity horses are still showing when they get to the FEI level and the younger dressage horses are not.
 
#102 ·
I think it is very much to do with how they are bred - as I said before. The young horse class horses, tend to be bred with enormous, flashy paces in mind with a back that doesn't swing. The horses bred to be superstars in the higher levels, are bred for good paces yes, but we also want swing and adjustability within the paces - not just going hell for leather in a big flashy trot constantly.

Also, the nature of dressage training. It is something that is developed over many, many years. A dressage horse or indeed a warmblood, is not considered mature until at least 6-7 years of age. We want to work them gymnastically, developing each step of the training scale. Perfecting each step before progressing. It is very much a sport for the perfectionist. To develop enough strength and balance for a horse to perform a movement such as the piaffe, or passage - and perform it true to its description - lowered croup, hocks closer to the ground, low stepping hind legs, high stepping fore legs, remaining on the spot or very slight forward movement etc etc etc takes years upon years of careful and correct training.
I believe the warmbloods are also less 'hardy' than your quarter horses - they seem to break down much more easily! As much as I hate to admit it, but warmbloods are not bred with hardiness and soundness in mind. Hence, we take things very, very, very cautiously to keep a horse sound at a high level into its teenage years.
 
#103 ·
i bought my moms horse last year and the guy said he turned three last month and broke him then and a month later hes home with me. he seems a little young yet.. to me he looks 3 to 3 and a half.. right now a year after we got him. so they could have broke him at 2 and then we got him i am going to have my horse dentist to look at his teeth to tell me but his teeth are really little yet and his ankles fused this winter and he still looks young.. ive been barrel racing him for 10 months now.. and working on jumping..
 
#104 ·
Some soundness issues may have been caused by breeding/stabling in race horses, but the work they are asked to do under saddle at a young age is crazy. on the farm we have
miss - arthritis in her back and front end, started at 2 on the track
cat - big boned gelding, started at 2, knees messed up by 3
raz - arthrisis, severe mental issues from over stabling at 7
S - Had to be put down at 8, arthritis, navicular

But if you want some western examples:
digger - Western pleasure, started at 2, hocks ruined by 4
Silver - Started for cutting at 2, severe arthris in the front end, hock issues, he's 11
Barn that trains for reigning and cattle work periodically runs 9-10 head throught the auction as "broke but sore". Started at 2, sold to the meat buyer so arthritic they could hardly walk at 5-7..

I'm not saying starting young is the only cause, but I think it definately contributes alot to young break downs. Young human athletes have similar problems when they compete too hard too young.
 
#107 ·
In all of these examples....sounds to me like commonsense was NOT used. I could go through one of the barns I board at and do the same thing, for horses that weren't EVEN shown, started later, and the owners haven't done proper horse maintenance on their horses...because all horses ARE athletes and need maintenance.
 
#105 ·
For every 1 of those I can give you 1 started at 2 that are now in their teen and20s and are fine. Again how are those horses started? That and other factors including maintenance goes into a lot of it.
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#106 ·
i also think there's a big difference between backing v. starting v. riding. i backed my QH at 16 mos. but he's not yet started, nor ridden. i backed my WB at 2.5 yrs, but he too is not yet started nor really ridden as his joints are very open still.

backing to accept weight (lean across, eventually sit on, maybe walk a few steps, get off) once every few months (as in a total 3-4x per YEAR) i have no issue with and i find with a more temperamental or opinionated horse it can definitely be beneficial to get them used to the concept of being sat on while they are still younger. fully STARTING (training to accept aids) takes far more time imo than 3-4x of sitting on the horse for under 3 minutes a year, and is something i feel should be reserved based on individual horse, their development, and maturity with a specific focus on their joints and growth plates.
 
#110 ·
We rescued an appendix filly who is supposed to be 2-3 yo and she grew 4 inches in 3 months this spring. We are not riding her, just working on ground work and ponying. We have placed empty packsaddles and saddles on her, but that is it so far, and as long as she is still growing, we plan on waiting another year at least. And its tempting because she is such a SWEETIE!
 
#112 ·
Question You see 2 ads:

"Nice horse for sale, Reg QH Mare 15.2 hands, 4 or 5 years old, not broke or started. Not Shown. Clips, loads, bathes. UTD on shots, coggins, and farrier. asking $5000"

"Nice horse for sale, Reg QH Mare 15.2 hands, 3 years old, Shown in QH shows at 2. Does very well in WP and can hold her own in HUS classes. 90 days professional training, still with trainer, you can also speak to them. Clips, loads, bathes. UTD on shots, coggins, and farrier. asking $5000"

Both are bred well. Both have decent conformation. Even say both will pass a PPE. A lot of you are saying you would pick the 4 or 5 year old over the 3 with training and show experience FOR THE SAME PRICE?

Just curious....
 
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#128 ·
Definitely the first, but I'm in it for horses, because I love horses. If I were in it for prestige & prizes, I'd probably think the second a better deal... & if I had that sort of money to spend on a horse & prizes mattered more, well I could just throw it away & get a new one when it broke.

Futurities and young horse classes sometimes feel like watching "Toddlers and Tiaras"...
I can't watch:wink:
 
#116 ·
Definitely way late to this thread and I have not read anything but the first page so bear with me.

Anywho I will start colts are two. I mean sure if it's a little before that and I start getting them used to the saddle my 110lb self laying (not riding, laying) on them isn't going to hurt them. At two years old they start work, knowing what legs are, flexing and bending, etc. There is SO MUCH you can di with a two year old without even getting out of a slow trot. I don't work two year olds hard. I generally do all the leg work, walk/trot and a little brief canters. That way they are getting experience and geting in shape too. Then we just progress as the horse does at the colts pace.

Now I would not start an Arab, warmblood, or anything along those lines that young with work, but my paints and QHs are a totally differant breed. They are sound enough to learn at that age. I don't expect them to lope for hours or slide 30 feet, nor do I expect them to run the barrel pattern or jump... Just know how to move off my leg, frame up when I ask, and have a solid foundation. That does not take as big a toll as people think. The majority of the time we are at a walk learning these things.
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#121 · (Edited)
Whoa whoa WHOA. I have shown at APHA worlds and I ride rail classes still and I have NEVER once ripped on my horses face. I borrowed a really nice WP colt (Zips Chocolate Chip lines) and i can guarantee he NEVER got his face ripped on. Granted my rail class career was short lived as two shows and I did not show rail classes at worlds (I showed a halter colt back in the day before I discovered speed classes) but I spent almost all day watching those classes and the warmup pen included, and the majority of the people at he barn I work at show pleasure.

You train the body, the head will naturally go into frame. For some horses it is lower than others. Now, however, it says in the rulebook that a correct headset and frame is with the head even with the whithers.

Do me a favor and stop taking stabs at other peoples sports. I don't show rail classes anymore nor was I a huge fan, but sayin that ALL people in the breed rip and yank on the faces is wrong and uneducated. Whatever you have been watching is incorrect training and must not have been anyone worth a penny. End of story.
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#124 ·
All I ask is for people to stop making total stereotypes. I don't even show pleasure anymore and I am highly offended. That's like me saying all jumpers beat their horses to make them jump or all TWH people sore their horses, or all barrel horses are crazy. I'm done with this thread too, I can't handle listening to this total off set information feast.
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