The stages of Training to Reach Collection - Page 4 - The Horse Forum
 64Likes
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
post #31 of 55 Old 06-21-2013, 12:06 PM Thread Starter
Green Broke
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 4,045
• Horses: 0
Quote:
There is nothing wrong with wanting to train a horse to move with greater collection. Most do that to some minor extent. I have, with Mia & Trooper, and I'm a beginning rider who doesn't compete in anything. But the degree to which I need it is minimal, to the point that it doesn't require a training scale or significant effort.
And the day when you decide to put in significant effort and you get on that horse and your do a maneuver and it feels like all you did was think about it and you and the horse did it.. you will know why people who train horses put in that significant effort. I hope you get that chance because at that moment you will become more than Xenophen.. more than anything.. you will be a centaur.

Not to disparage your work or your thoughts but this explains a LOT about your posts. Learned from reading (which I do applaud) and observing (which is also admirable) but not from doing.

I made a bit of living on horse back and training young horses (starting them and then letting them go on to someone else to be finished). This is not to say I "know it all" (that would be boring) but I know a good bit.

Going back to the beginning. That nice working cow horse. He does not have the same "classical frame" as a dressage horse but if he is efficient and balanced, he will have learned a good bit of "dressage" but it will be less obvious.

Look at these two videos. If you cannot see both horses have learned the same lessons watch them again.. and again... and again... The western horses have learned to collect, and to balance and to work off their hind quarters and raise the root of their neck as have the dressage horses. Interesting when the riders change horses in the one video...



Sahara and Skyseternalangel like this.

There is something about the outside of a horse that is good for the inside of a man. ~Winston Churchill
(or woman!!!! ) Dinosaur Horse Trainer
Elana is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #32 of 55 Old 06-21-2013, 12:37 PM
Trained
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: southern Arizona
Posts: 9,060
• Horses: 4
"And the day when you decide to put in significant effort and you get on that horse and your do a maneuver and it feels like all you did was think about it and you and the horse did it.. you will know why people who train horses put in that significant effort."

Sorry, but I HAVE put significant effort into training a horse (5 years), and been happy with the results, without using a training scale designed for dressage. I do not train for collection because the terrain I ride in doesn't reward collection. Nor do my goals require collection.

Not all training does or should include training for collection. That is the point of the debate.

" Learned from reading (which I do applaud) and observing (which is also admirable) but not from doing."

On the contrary. Most of what I know has been learned by doing it with my horses, and seeing how they respond. Frankly, what I see in many experienced riders is that they accept what they were told when learning without questioning - particularly among dressage fans.

Riding a horse with contact on the bit is not required. A natural headset, as used by the Cavalry, is a "proper" and "balanced" way of riding. Neck reining is a "proper" way of riding, although not 'on the bit'.

"The western horses have learned to collect, and to balance and to work off their hind quarters and raise the root of their neck as have the dressage horses."

And if someone wants to teach them that, it is OK. It is not required for a horse to move balanced, or be responsive, or strong. It will not increase their lifespan.

Science trumps tradition. So does logic. A horse moving with suspension is working harder to move than a horse without. If the goal is to look pretty, that is fine. Ballet is fine, but it isn't how I move around in my life. Too much work, too little reward. I don't want my horse to work hard covering a little ground. I don't want them to carry themselves in a way that works best in an arena. I want them to move fluidly, and efficiently.

What puzzles me is why some dressage fans think a horse moving inefficiently is more desirable, OUTSIDE OF SOME SPORTS, than one moving efficiently and fluidly.

BTW - I also don't train my horse to do sliding stops. Nor do I train them to do 360 degree spins. Reining is fun to watch, but doesn't apply to the world my horses and I live in.





In our world, anything that makes the foot land harder is bad. A horse that doesn't think where it is about to put each foot is bad. In this environment, the horses LIKE pavement. Pavement is easier on their feet. Pavement is level. Trails are not. Pavement doesn't have gullies. Trails do. Pavement doesn't come with cactus inches from your legs. Trails do. It is hot, and there will be no water for the horses until we get back. Efficiency is critical. Looking impressive for the spectators...not so much!

This is not the world of jumpers. It is not the world of dressage. It is a world that requires strength, balance, control, responsiveness - but not collection.
FaydesMom likes this.

"People can teach us the rules, but only horses can teach us the art of riding."
bsms is offline  
post #33 of 55 Old 06-21-2013, 01:31 PM
Super Moderator
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 38,999
• Horses: 2
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kotori View Post
I've read through this twice and I'm still confused. What are you guys debating exactly?
Posted via Mobile Device


That is a good question. I am not sure we are all debating the same thing.
Beling and Skyseternalangel like this.
tinyliny is online now  
post #34 of 55 Old 06-21-2013, 02:32 PM
Yearling
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 791
• Horses: 0
In a nutshell:

BSMS - collection is only relevant in an arena on a dressage horse and has no real use or value on the trail.

Elana - all horses can benefit from the basic training foundation that the principles of dressage are built on.
Sahara is offline  
post #35 of 55 Old 06-21-2013, 02:34 PM
Super Moderator
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 38,999
• Horses: 2
thank you. That sounds pretty comprehensible. I got lost in the details.
tinyliny is online now  
post #36 of 55 Old 06-21-2013, 02:48 PM
Super Moderator
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: CT USA an English transplant
Posts: 22,567
• Horses: 3
Forgive me if I'm getting this wrong but Elana began the thread so those of us interested in using the basic concepts that are the foundation of the dressage sport horse can discuss how useful they can be in other riding disciplines and also how they are already used and often without people realizing it
If people aren't interested or see no point in it - then they can say so and move on - no problem with that but I'm struggling to see the point in someone repeatedly making their own case for why its a waste of time when they have likely never even ridden a horse that knows how to work in a collected frame so cant make a comparison.
I bought a horse a recently that had no clue about collection or using her back end and she was dreadful out on the trails, her 'jog' would shake your teeth out and rattle your bones, a year later with some basic dressage schooling she's as smooth as can be and a pleasure to ride - also 100% safer.
bsms - we get it - you don't see any point in!!!!
updownrider likes this.
jaydee is offline  
post #37 of 55 Old 06-21-2013, 02:51 PM
Trained
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: southern Arizona
Posts: 9,060
• Horses: 4
From my perspective, the debate would be on the question:

"Does 'training a horse to have the balance and muscles to collect will improve that horse for ANY discipline.. from trails to reining to barrel racing to jumping'?"

It could be rephrased:

"Does a "diagram [that] shows the stages of training to go from a green horse with rhythm to a horse that understands how to raise the root of his neck and get his hind quarters under him" apply to all horses? Should all horses train to carry more weight on the rear with a rider than they do without a rider?

Or it could be rephrased as "Does training in ballet help you when jogging?"

"People can teach us the rules, but only horses can teach us the art of riding."
bsms is offline  
post #38 of 55 Old 06-21-2013, 03:12 PM
Yearling
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Maui
Posts: 899
• Horses: 0
...maybe not jogging, but I remember when ballet was supposed to improve basketball playing.

I think the attitude bsms has is, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it" is fine if all you want to do is be carried around on horseback. Let the horse be himself, let him figure it out.

Same as, high school being unnecessary for someone who lays bricks for a living.

But formal schooling, like following a training scale, is more than just the tasks at hand. There's discipline involved, a heightened ability for communication, and other intangibles, aside from enjoyment.

Maybe it's just about the quality of life.
Beling is offline  
post #39 of 55 Old 06-21-2013, 03:20 PM
Super Moderator
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: CT USA an English transplant
Posts: 22,567
• Horses: 3
I don't think that you can answer the question
Will some basic dressage training improve my horse in other aspects of riding - including trail riding
Unless you actually see the difference for yourself by giving it a try
To totally simplify things - Its not that much different to asking someone if they prefer apples to oranges when they've never eaten an orange or someone saying they hate apples but have never actually tasted one
jaydee is offline  
post #40 of 55 Old 06-21-2013, 03:59 PM
Super Moderator
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Chapel Hill, NC
Posts: 16,315
• Horses: 0
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kotori View Post
I've read through this twice and I'm still confused. What are you guys debating exactly?
Posted via Mobile Device
Now, I have NO idea. Bsms won't use multi-quotes so his post is very difficult to follow and he seems to be talking in circles.

My post to him was directly addressing his post that said, and I quote;

Quote:
Dressage is not thousands of years old. Dressage is hundreds of years old, and was intended to train a horse to look good on parade grounds.
I posted to say that "dressage" ie training, was around MUCH longer, and was meant to make a horse (originally) more supple and responsive for war use.

Not sure where he went after that.....
jaydee likes this.
Allison Finch is offline  
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the The Horse Forum forums, you must first register.

Already have a Horse Forum account?
Members are allowed only one account per person at the Horse Forum, so if you've made an account here in the past you'll need to continue using that account. Please do not create a new account or you may lose access to the Horse Forum. If you need help recovering your existing account, please Contact Us. We'll be glad to help!

New to the Horse Forum?
Please choose a username you will be satisfied with using for the duration of your membership at the Horse Forum. We do not change members' usernames upon request because that would make it difficult for everyone to keep track of who is who on the forum. For that reason, please do not incorporate your horse's name into your username so that you are not stuck with a username related to a horse you may no longer have some day, or use any other username you may no longer identify with or care for in the future.



User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in









Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.


Old Thread Warning
This thread is more than 90 days old. When a thread is this old, it is often better to start a new thread rather than post to it. However, If you feel you have something of value to add to this particular thread, you can do so by checking the box below before submitting your post.

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page



Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
How do I get him to reach in the canter? MudPaint Dressage 6 09-08-2011 06:55 PM
The 8 stages of riding franknbeans Horse Talk 6 04-19-2011 07:53 AM
Training for collection AQHA Horse Training 8 06-22-2010 04:31 AM
collection training prince Horse Training 1 05-19-2009 10:44 AM
Stages jknight Horse Breeding 5 06-12-2008 12:28 AM

Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome