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Striking Out At Lunge Whip Help!

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  • Do you ever hit with lunge whip?

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    12-02-2012, 06:03 PM
  #11
Yearling
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cherie    
I think you are only pecking at him -- you know -- nagging and threatening him but with no intention of actually making him respond correctly.

The worst behavior you accept is the very best behavior or response you have any right to expect.

You have only threatened, nagged and pecked and he is going to get more and more disrespectful and very possibly, aggressive.

Do not bother to wave a whip at a horse unless you intend to hit him hard enough to get the proper response if he just blows you off. The instant he responds (in this case by moving briskly forward) you lower the whip and take pressure off as long as he continues to go forward until you ask him to stop.

I have had to deal with quite a few horses that had learned to NOT obey a handler instead of responding correctly. It takes a lot more pressure once one has gotten spoiled this way.

It is important to not ask for one to go too long or too fast in the beginning. Just make sure YOU determine the stopping point. You may have to get after him pretty hard since you have taught him that he does not have to do the right thing at all.
I kind of take offense to that. "threatening him but with no intention of actually making him respond correctly." I have every intention of making him respond correctly. I've dedicated three years to it. I do get after him pretty hard, I apply physical contact when I feel it needs to be applied. He kicked out at me, I took the whip to him and he hasn't done it since. He strikes out at the whip not me, which makes me think he is afraid of it. I hardly see how hitting him with it would leave a positive impact?

I do eventually get him back out on the circle and I don't stop chasing after him until he does. It kind of sounds like you are assuming I wave the whip at him and when he doesn't do anything I give up, which is not true.
     
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    12-02-2012, 07:00 PM
  #12
Trained
^^Cherie doesn't like whips & it seems she assumes they're only ever used badly.

What is it you want to lunge him for & are aiming for with it? Eg. I use lunging to teach/reinforce my horse for responding to me at a distance & reacting in fear is not desirable. Agree with those who said to desensitise him to it first. If he's afraid of the whip, then you're definitely not up to asking him to lunge with it, IMO.

*Assuming* he is actually afraid of it, I wouldn't even think about hitting him with it *generally*, but I do agree with Cherie that *if* he were kicking at it in the attitude of 'you & who's army' it's likely that you're not being effective & I would probably 'up the ante' but I'm not convinced that's what's going on here or that it would therefore be the right approach.
     
    12-02-2012, 07:14 PM
  #13
Foal
Just poking in here, but lunge whip aside, if he does kick out at it, if he is going at your angle or even lifting a leg in your direction at you like that, would it work to chase him around as though you’re going to kill him, as some say? I know one thread suggested that, make him think you are about to MURDER him and when he stops after about a minute, give him a rest so he’ll be thinking that is the last dang thing he will ever want to do.

But then again, I don’t know him and I’m aware some horses - if he is like this, to the following statement, mind you - take physical action like that as opportunity to run you over, true...or they get more aggressive with this approach.
     
    12-02-2012, 07:42 PM
  #14
Yearling
Quote:
Originally Posted by loosie    
What is it you want to lunge him for & are aiming for with it?
I lunge him to exercise him prior to riding and for the nights I don't ride at all
     
    12-02-2012, 07:44 PM
  #15
Super Moderator
Quote:
I've only ever touched him with the whip once, last summer,
I'm not trying to offend you, but you said you only "touched" him once last summer. That sounds like you either just use the whip to threaten him or you tell me what you use it for?

Loosie is right. I do not like whips. I do not think they are necessary 99% of the time. I see probably 20 people misuse them and get the wrong response (like the anger you are seeing) for every person that gets the correct response and gets respect. If a person is not prepared and able to use a whip correctly or is going to quit when they get the wrong response, they are better off not using one at all. JMHO

If you are going to use a whip around a horse, you must first get the horse to understand that the whip is not going to hurt him and that he MUST move from it WHEN ASKED (not before). So, the first thing I do with a horse that does not respond correctly to a whip is teach it to not fear the whip.

I will hit the ground repeatedly and hard all around the horse. I will keep it up until the horse accepts this. If it is really stupid about whips, I will use 'approach and retreat' until it is cool with the whip. Then, go to hitting the ground. Then, I will rub the horse all over with the whip. Next, I teach it to move when I tap it with the whip and smooch. One session usually does it with a short refresher the next couple of days.

I teach a horse to move from a whip like I do about every other lesson I teach a horse. It is really as simple as 1, 2, 3, 4.

1) I make sure the horse is ready and able to do what I am going to ask.

2) I make sure I ask in a simple, plain and concise way so the horse has no doubt what I am asking it to do.

3) I will ask twice, being more firm the second time.

4) If the horse does not do it, (or make a decent effort) I make him wish he had listened the first time I asked.

When you train a horse effectively, you teach it very early that it needs to listen and it needs to respond correctly. The sooner you establish this relationship, the less they argue and 'push back'. They know nothing you ask is unreasonable and they know compliance is not optional. That is why we never have a problem with horses loading into any trailer, accepting about anything we want to do and they try really hard to do what we want. They just never get the chance to argue with us.

Oddly enough, they are a lot happier, too, when they know exactly where they stand and that they need to do anything and everything we ask. I cannot even remember that last time a horse tried to bite, or threatened to kick or just stood there when I asked it to move. They love structure and 'sameness' and want to know who is in charge. They really prefer it when we are in charge. They crave a strong leader and not an equal.
     
    12-02-2012, 07:51 PM
  #16
Green Broke
Quote:
Originally Posted by BornToRun    
I kind of take offense to that. "threatening him but with no intention of actually making him respond correctly." I have every intention of making him respond correctly. I've dedicated three years to it. I do get after him pretty hard, I apply physical contact when I feel it needs to be applied. He kicked out at me, I took the whip to him and he hasn't done it since. He strikes out at the whip not me, which makes me think he is afraid of it. I hardly see how hitting him with it would leave a positive impact?

I do eventually get him back out on the circle and I don't stop chasing after him until he does. It kind of sounds like you are assuming I wave the whip at him and when he doesn't do anything I give up, which is not true.
Do I understand correctly that you've worked with this horse for three years and it is still green and you have a perceived problem with it's "work ethic?"

If so, why not get another trainer involved?
loosie likes this.
     
    12-02-2012, 07:56 PM
  #17
Yearling
Quote:
Originally Posted by boots    
Do I understand correctly that you've worked with this horse for three years and it is still green and you have a perceived problem with it's "work ethic?"

If so, why not get another trainer involved?
He was left a stallion until he was six, and the previous owners left him in a field, then sold him to me under false pretenses. Because of financial problems I had board him at my grandparents who don't live close to me and I could not get out to see him very often.

I have two trainers.
     
    12-02-2012, 08:26 PM
  #18
Trained
Quote:
Originally Posted by BornToRun    
I lunge him to exercise him prior to riding and for the nights I don't ride at all
OK. Has he actually been taught to lunge? Do you know how to go about it? - Teaching him &/or right way to go about lunging generally? And your 2 trainers, what do they do/say about him?

I missed the bit that said you'd been working with him for 3 years. If that's the case, I think you need to change your tactics, as they're obviously not effective, for some reason or other.
boots likes this.
     
    12-02-2012, 11:02 PM
  #19
Started
Care to show a picture of how you have the line? "Through the bit and over the head"?
Posted via Mobile Device
     
    12-02-2012, 11:29 PM
  #20
Weanling
Do you have access to a round pen? If it were me (and I've had a nightmare arab gelding who was a stud till he was 10, green broke, and left to sit for 8 years before I came along :/), I would get him moving in a round pen before I attached him to a lunge. This little gelding I was working with also had an AWFUL work ethic- he figured if he got away with not working for 18 years of his life that he wasn't about to start with me! A round pen would allow you to get him moving forward without being attached to a line and worrying about him changing directions or bolting away from you. I worked with mine in a round pen first, added the lunge whip (which when used well is merely an extension of your arm/body) and he got the idea that when the whip/arm moved toward his hip his job was to GO. With a little time and patience, he slowed down and stopped overreacting and bolting forwards. They only time he came in contact with the whip was if he swung his butt towards me or threatened to kick- he would get a good slap on the butt within seconds, then I backed off and stood there like nothing happened. I would ask him to move off again, and 9 times out of 10 he walked off calm with the whip pointed at his hip, which drove him forward. It would be pretty tough doing this on a lunge, and I can see how your frustration would build with him learning that if he switches directions he essentially screws the process up by stopping all forward movement. Overall, I teach a horse forward movement from my body (a whip too if I don't want to be too close) in a round pen first. Then adding a lunge line later tends to be easier. Hope this helps!
     

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