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Teaching a horse to "think"?

3K views 50 replies 17 participants last post by  Yogiwick 
#1 ·
#2 ·
Yes, we do this. Babies drag lead ropes around, get taught to yield to pressure in the stall and then tied next to mom, so they see that she does not panic, and they should yield to pressure.
Mine are taught to stand ground tied in the barn, little bits at a time, which requires thinking about me, to get hooves picked and trimmed, and for grooming.

Horses have plenty of self preservation, imo, and rather than trying to TEACH horses things that are instinctive, it is more likely that WE muck it up by trying to preserve them!!
 
#4 ·
Ditto ^^^^everyone. It isn't a new concept, as my granddad was using that principle when I was a kid back in the late 50's - early 60's:)

The article is well worth the read not only for new horse owners but a good refresher for us old time/long timers:cowboy:

It's a well-written article and actually one of the few that is readable (the writer isn't all up in herself - just states the facts in a simple manner) :loveshower:
 
#5 ·
Glad everyone agrees! Just thought I would check with all the wise horse people here before doing it with my mare.

I'm dealing with a horse that is supposed to have been trained (Kodak), but has a lot of holes in her training, so this sort of thing is useful to me, if only to check to see if she understands this. She tends to spook and be very headshy so I am cautious about doing anything that makes her feel trapped, but I'm thinking it would be a worthwhile exercise to teach her to think rather than react. I would have another lead on her so if she walks on the first one and panics, I still have some measure of control. Will let you know how it goes!
 
#6 ·
A useful tip that I learned at a desinsitizing clinic was "Lead your horse to water". The leader of the herd controls the water, and so, we may be able to exert a little more control by getting our horses thirsty, and then leading them to the water.

My local Mennonite community has no running water, and the boys bring the horses in, one by one, to the barn water trough, twice a day, for water. When the draft horses come in from working, they automatically go, still harnessed, but loose, to the trough.

This clinic was done by the man who trains the police horses for the 4th largest city in the US.

Just another tool in the toolbox....
 
#7 ·
Yes. And I think her point has validity beyond stepping on a lead rope. You introduce a horse to progressively challenging situations, where a bad decision by the horse won't cause too much harm, and then let them make decisions. Like humans, good judgment in horses comes from experience, and experience comes from bad judgment. By allowing the horse to make decisions - which means you have to honor those decisions - you get a horse with good judgment. You start off small and work your way up to prevent any catastrophic bad decisions.

That is why "horse sense" used to be a synonym for "common sense" or "practical judgment" - because a horse can learn to use good judgment and to be a thinking partner. Two of my three horses arrived here believing they were not allowed to make decisions. I find that sad.

I also agree that horses who feel trapped, unable to preserve themselves, are the ones who will explode and thus are more dangerous to ride.
 
#8 ·
I'm curious about what you all think of this: Three Lessons For Young Horses Part 1: Teaching Them To Think | The Chronicle of the Horse

Basically, you let a horse step on its lead rope in a controlled environment to teach them not to panic, and to stop and think about how they need to release the pressure (step back). Would you do this? Seems sensible.
Yup.

This is kind of how I approach ALL things I desensitize a horse to. Of course, you are not going to be able to desensitize them to everything in the world ;-) so my goal of the training isn't necessarily to get them unafraid of that one single object, but rather to TEACH them to analyze and THINK about an object, before simply deciding to be scared of it. Teach them they can investigate it first, at their own pace, and realize it's not scary at all. Or, such as in the case of getting a rope around their leg, to simply stop moving and think about it, and usually the "pressure" will stop once they stop moving.
 
#10 ·
It is something that we used to do with the youngsters - though the end result can be different depending on the horse. I've seen some that would stand on the rope and still be standing there an hour later when you happen to notice them and go to their rescue, I've seen some panic and over react no matter how many times they do it and I've seen others that would figure out very quickly that if they just moved their foot they were free
 
#12 ·
I tried the exercise tonight. Turns out there is a fourth type. The "I won't step on this rope even if the barn is on fire and my life depends on it". No matter what I did, I could not get her to step on it. She would side-step it, she would step over it, she would step in front of it, but never on it. When I tried to put it in front of her over and over again, she just looked at me like "why are you trying to trick me mom?" and avoided it again. After a few minutes, it felt like I entrapment, so I gave up, took off the dragging lead and we trotted around a bit happily. I think she thought she had passed some kind of test :)
 
#11 ·
What worked with my (previously traumatized) horse was to place two feed pans a moderate distance away from each other and put her in the middle with a trailing leadrope. Gave her the incentive to figure it out and not freeze or panic when she stepped on her rope. It was in a safely enclosed space where she couldn't get up a lot of speed if she did panic.
 
#13 ·
I always let me horses graze in an area with a lead rope. Two things they seem to learn: if stepped on they don't panic and figure out how to release themselves, and two, how not to step on it to begin with.....lolol. Also comes in helpful in those weird, 'how did I let that happen?' Moments when they step on their reins.

I will still let the lead role drag on mine and he has learned to get it on one side of his body or the other and watches where he places his feet, or he will position the rope between his legs and graze that way. Smart little white devil.

I was pondering your statement of attaching two lead ropes; one that drags and a second you would hold on to to offer her support. So, I was pondering, are you teaching the horse to think for itself and figure things out if you are still there holding on to her with a second lead role? Or is it best to let her gaze in an enclosed area and you sit back and let her work it out?
 
#14 ·
I think the idea of the second lead rope is safety. If a horse should panic, it would allow you to (hopefully) move it off the dragging lead rope.

But any lead rope attached to Kodak means something to her. Either stand still (she's awesome at ground tying) or follow me if I am holding it. So she wasn't just behaving like a foal who hasn't learned to be led yet, which may be why the exercise turned out the way it did.

I could let her graze with a lead rope dragging to see what happens I suppose. Chances are, she's figured it out enough to know that she needs to back off. Having grass to eat might make her forget about the lead rope, but I've tied her to a tree before with a very loose lead and let her graze. The whole time she was there (maybe 20 minutes), I kept watching to make sure she wouldn't get tangled and she didn't. I'm betting this is something she's already figured out, but I'm still glad I did it with her because every exercise I do with her helps me identify what she knows and what she doesn't.
 
#15 ·
I guess I am thinking if she really, really panicked over stepping on the lead rope you and your weight wouldn't be able to 'hold' her since she is way bigger. I. Fact you could get dragged....ask me how I learned that one, and why the human mind insists on NOT letting go of the freakin rope!

I would let her in the little paddock area with a few piles of hay and let her drag the rope. Be there somewhere near if she needs you.
 
#16 ·
I guess I've inadvertently done this type of training because I hand graze Gatsby often and he has stepped on his own rope many times. He doesn't panic; he just moves his foot after discovering the surprise of what he's done. I think it's a very good thing when horses stop & think & don't immediately panic when they hit resistance.

Turning her out into the pasture with the rope doesn't sound like a bad idea to me. If she does panic, won't she eventually move her feet and set herself free? Although, from what you've said here in & in your post about poles, it sounds like she's pretty aware of where she puts her feet!

Did you read the second article in the series? That one was good too. I really enjoy many of the COTH articles, especially the "amateurs like us" series.
 
#17 ·
We had every single weanling drag a line. The biggest reason was it made teaching them to lead a breeze!

Re: the two lead lines…I would not do this. You don't want to put them in a straight jacket by "helping" which is what you would be doing if they step on the line, tighten up and then you pull the second line. You want them to figure it out on their own. They will eventually move their feet. I guarantee it. Maybe not as soon as you would like, but then, you are not the one learning what to do/not to do, they are.

And I mean "you" in the generic sense...not anyone personally!
 
#18 ·
I too let them drag a rope. Something else I did with the foals when they were a few weeks old was to take a pull on the rope if they stopped when leading them. The moment they gave to me the pressure was relaxed. It taught them to tie.

I remember dropping two yearlings when I tripped going through the gate. They took off with ropes trailing and when I went to catch them they both had the wind up their tails and were playing silly beggars so I left them to get on with it. When I went back it was poring with rain and they wanted in so came trotting to me - both had learned to turn their heads to the side so the rope was dragging alongside rather than between their legs.
 
#20 ·
Ditto to others, tho I haven't read the second page yet. I've always done this sort of thing. A rope(for starters), then thin baler's twine around the legs can help teach them the correct response & not to panic if they get their foot caught in wire too. I've had cause to be thankful of those lessons on a number of occasions now, having horses on properties where there was old fencing around, or walking into concealed wire on a trail ride for eg!!

Re Jaydee's
I've seen some that would stand on the rope and still be standing there an hour later when you happen to notice them and go to their rescue, I've seen some panic and over react no matter how many times
The use of the second lead, and being in control of the situations yourself, for the first lesson or 2, rather than just letting the horse teach itself by going loose dragging a lead, is so you can help them learn correctly & not be 'overfaced' and end up panicking. Eg. the horse who just stands there, head 'stuck' & doesn't move, you can actually get him to move that foot the first time or few. The horse that might panic about any pressure, a) needs to first learn how to yield to halter pressure far better before being put in that situation, and b) perhaps you wouldn't actually attach the dragging lead firm, but in a way that it will 'run' a bit, so the experience stops short of panic.
 
#22 ·
...And It's good to see so many open to different practices such as this here. On another (English, if that makes a difference) forum I was on, I recall mentioning I did this & I was shot down in flames by everyone for being so dangerous & irresponsible!
 
#23 ·
I always start my foals with about a foot long lead attached to the halter and let them get used to it flapping around. Once they're ok with that, we move to a longer lead that can drag the ground but not by a lot. They step on that one a few times, scare themselves and run around the paddock with the lead 'chasing' them and spanking them a little, until they figure out that if they stop it will not keep chasing and spanking. Then we go to a regular length lead and let them figure it out with that one, usually only takes once, and they no longer get upset if they step on the lead or if I drop it and they take off they don't get hysterical about the lead flapping and slapping them.

When I bathed Skip the other day, he messed around with the rope I had tied to the big tree and got it to loosen up and get longer. He was cropping the grass at the base of the tree while I washed him and I saw he got his foot over the lead. Not a problem, he stayed with his head down and stood still while I unclipped the lead from his halter and then hooked him back up, shortened the rope and tied it a bit higher with a knot he couldn't undo. He TRIED to do it a second time but I had retied the rope in such a way that he couldn't undo it, anything to keep from getting hosed off, LOL!
 
#24 ·
They step on that one a few times, scare themselves and run around the paddock with the lead 'chasing' them and spanking them a little, until they figure out that if they stop it will not keep chasing and spanking.
I do see that you've done this progressively, said you make sure the horse is OK before taking it further, but for the sake of people that don't understand the importance of that, I want to emphasise that bit. And also that allowing it to go to a level of significant fear can lead to problems, such as Jaydee mentioned - for one, it's not a *reliable* way to desensitise & may just cause the horse to be more afraid. Discussing 'flooding' & the likes on the (marathon length) 'Willing Compliance' thread too...

I have unfortunately caused terror in a horse a few times myself, in the name of 'desensitisation', such as when I was working on a station, learning how to 'break' horses, and the idea then was the 'buck 'em out' method; tie the little handled horse up, down, around... so he can't possibly escape, put the saddle on & do it up nice & firm, then let the horse loose in the arena to buck it out until he 'accepts' it. Then do the same with a rider... that's not likely to come off(I didn't fit that particular part of the bill, thankfully!), then pronounce the horse 'green broke'. That is but one eg of 'flooding' & disregarding(or actually meaning to cause) serious fear in the name of training. Won't go into detail, but I strongly disagree with doing this.

As with the above eg, where a horse may never get over that initial fear of being saddled/ridden, I've also seen horses who were mortally afraid of ropes and trailers, for the same sort of reason - it's just been forced upon them until they 'gave up'. While they may well give up, it's not the same as *learning* to *accept* something, and down the track it might take very little to 'suddenly, out of the blue', trigger that panic reaction again. And bad things can happen in the process of this 'training' too - I've seen horses with ropes 'chasing' them run until they fell down in exhaustion(then eventually get up, see the rope move & do it all again!), run through fences(that one mangled her legs in the process) and jump gates onto public roads. I've seen horses in trailers try to escape through the little 'escape doors'(never leave them open unattended!!!) or through the front windows(unfortunately attended a horse with terrible injuries from that one, who subsequently had to be put down), or turn & try to jump the tailgate in trailers...

So I reckon it is VITAL in whatever you're working to desensitise your horse to, that you use 'approach & retreat' methods, to push their 'boundaries' just a little at a time, and work gradually towards whatever goal, to avoid causing significant fear.
 
#28 ·
"The horse that might panic about any pressure, a) needs to first learn how to yield to halter pressure far better before being put in that situation, and b) perhaps you wouldn't actually attach the dragging lead firm, but in a way that it will 'run' a bit, so the experience stops short of panic."

I've seen horses panic in that situation. It lasts <2 seconds and stops the second the horse is "free" (which would be before they hurt themselves.

So no, I wouldn't hesitate to do it that way or consider it flooding. For most horses of course, always a disclaimer!
 
#29 ·
^I shouldn't have even written that:redface:, realise it's 100% unreasonably stereotypical to even suggest. It was also a little 'tongue in cheek' too. Just that most English(as in Pommy, not style - I'm 1/2 Pom myself...) riders *I* have met, and the people on the English forums I've been on have been rather 'set' on 'proper' and conventional ways to do everything, and anything out of the box is wrong. ...Not that there aren't plenty of those type in other 'walks' too...
 
#33 · (Edited)
Hey, you have to realise that the US is rather insular. Heck, they have changed the English language both spelling and meaning!

Until the film Goldfinger came out they thought that the name of Honour Blackman's character was fine, not knowing the intends Ian Fleming had made. :grin: Now it is a banned word!


One of the funniest things I heard was when collecting someone from the airport, they were coming from Australia.

People were coming through from customs. A family of five were together, Dad pushing a trolley and his six year old son by his side. The child, in that high pitched voice that carries so well asked, "Dad, is this the place where all the crims came from?"

He had a point!
 
#37 ·
Oh goodness, this is way off topic! The only thing it has to do with the original post is that it makes one think!

Pome or pommy is an Austrialian derogatory name for a British person, stemming from the days when anyone caught doing wrong and this could be for murder or stealing an apple, they were deported to Australia. Many were also deported to the states too.

As the US call them fanny packs in Aus and U.K. They are belt bags the term fanny can be a girl's name (very old fashioned) or, a woman's body part. Honour Blackman was the females star in Goldringer and her name was Puss y Galore. I have never worked out why fanny is allowed in the US but puss y isn't.
 
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