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Teaching horse respect

3K views 23 replies 13 participants last post by  hollyculver 
#1 ·
I am currently working with a 7yo hafflinger gelding. The pony either seems to just hate me or hate me because I am the one that rides him often. Whenever I try to catch the horse I can lead him calmly for about 2/3 strides before he head buts me out the way and pulls a strop. If I try and take any kind of dominance by asking him to back up he reacts worse and will charge at me and rear an inch from my face. When it comes to this point I have to let him loose again otherwise it's unsafe for me. I usually then try some kind of free schooling to implicate more dominance but he is clever and will turn his front to me and just continue charging at me. I can only get him to do a few circles of trot before this happens, the one thing I can manage with this horse is to get him to back up but this requires a large amount of effort. I'm not sure whether to take a more friendly approach as he now associates me as the one that scares him and attacks him but doesn't get anywhere or whether to continue with the groundwork. There is no way I can lunge him he won't go in a circle. Hacking is fine on the odd occasion I can catch him but that's all I can get out of him at the moment. What techniques can I try? Am I being too agressive?
 
#2 ·
I am currently working with a 7yo hafflinger gelding. The pony either seems to just hate me or hate me because I am the one that rides him often. Whenever I try to catch the horse I can lead him calmly for about 2/3 strides before he head buts me out the way and pulls a strop. If I try and take any kind of dominance by asking him to back up he reacts worse and will charge at me and rear an inch from my face. When it comes to this point I have to let him loose again otherwise it's unsafe for me. I usually then try some kind of free schooling to implicate more dominance but he is clever and will turn his front to me and just continue charging at me. I can only get him to do a few circles of trot before this happens, the one thing I can manage with this horse is to get him to back up but this requires a large amount of effort. I'm not sure whether to take a more friendly approach as he now associates me as the one that scares him and attacks him but doesn't get anywhere or whether to continue with the groundwork. There is no way I can lunge him he won't go in a circle. Hacking is fine on the odd occasion I can catch him but that's all I can get out of him at the moment. What techniques can I try? Am I being too agressive?
Horses don't normally hate people.. they just know who they can push around.

In my opinion you're not being aggressive at all :/ I would take a whip and give him a good pop on the rear end or if he goes up a whack on the poll...
Honestly I would let him off the line in the paddock take the whip and make him feel like hell hounds are on his tail.
Does he charge but stop before he hits you or just keeps going?

This is just my opinion I am sure someone more experienced would have a better idea.
 
#6 ·
Horses don't normally hate people.. they just know who they can push around.

In my opinion you're not being aggressive at all :/ I would take a whip and give him a good pop on the rear end or if he goes up a whack on the poll...
Honestly I would let him off the line in the paddock take the whip and make him feel like hell hounds are on his tail.
To be able to hit a horse on the poll as it is rearing is nigh impossible, you would have to be standing in front of it which is the most dangerous position to be in.

If a horse rears when you are leading it the best place to whack it is across the front of its hind legs, this is attacking his only point of stability amd is far safer.

As for letting him off line, that is rewarding bad behaviour, and to chase a horse for long enough and fast enough once he is loose will exhaust you far faster than the horse!

Handling and sorting a horse like this is easy for someone like Cherie or me despite our age and accompanying aches and pains, because we can 'read' what the horse is going to do and this usually stop it before it starts. Of it progresses than we have the experience to have out timing right for correction and be aware of what the horse might do if he objects to that correction.

To the OP I say get experienced help, always wear gloves and a helmet when handling him from the field.
 
#3 ·
I am currently working with a 7yo hafflinger gelding. The pony either seems to just hate me or hate me because I am the one that rides him often. Whenever I try to catch the horse I can lead him calmly for about 2/3 strides before he head buts me out the way and pulls a strop. If I try and take any kind of dominance by asking him to back up he reacts worse and will charge at me and rear an inch from my face. When it comes to this point I have to let him loose again otherwise it's unsafe for me. I usually then try some kind of free schooling to implicate more dominance but he is clever and will turn his front to me and just continue charging at me. I can only get him to do a few circles of trot before this happens, the one thing I can manage with this horse is to get him to back up but this requires a large amount of effort. I'm not sure whether to take a more friendly approach as he now associates me as the one that scares him and attacks him but doesn't get anywhere or whether to continue with the groundwork. There is no way I can lunge him he won't go in a circle. Hacking is fine on the odd occasion I can catch him but that's all I can get out of him at the moment. What techniques can I try? Am I being too agressive?
The first part I have bolded is telling me that you have effectively trained him to behave this way. You took all pressure off and rewarded him for acting badly when you turned him loose right after he after so badly.

Let me explain how horses think and respond. The last thing the horse did right before someone released any pressure they had put on the horse is what the horse was rewarded for doing. That is how you teach a horse to do about everything you train him to do. So, you have taught this horse to be aggressive.

This situation has nothing to do with 'being friendly' and I assure you that he does not associate you with a reason to be fearful. He is simply above you on the proverbial 'pecking order' and he is trying to 'put you your place'. He is just one small step from full-out attacking you by savagely biting and pawing you. Have you seen one horse attack another for trying to get a bite of their grain? Have you seen horses with big bite marks where another horse has bitten them? That is what will be next for you if you do not teach this little monster that you are above him on the pecking order and that he needs to do exactly what you want him to do with no argument.

I can better tell you how to go about fixing this dangerous problem before you get hurt badly if you answer a few questions:

First of all -- How old are you?

Is there someone around that can help you?

In the meantime, I would recommend that you leave him completely alone until you have someone work with both you and him.
 
#4 ·
I am currently working with a 7yo hafflinger gelding. The pony either seems to just hate me or hate me because I am the one that rides him often. Whenever I try to catch the horse I can lead him calmly for about 2/3 strides before he head buts me out the way and pulls a strop. If I try and take any kind of dominance by asking him to back up he reacts worse and will charge at me and rear an inch from my face. When it comes to this point I have to let him loose again otherwise it's unsafe for me. I usually then try some kind of free schooling to implicate more dominance but he is clever and will turn his front to me and just continue charging at me. I can only get him to do a few circles of trot before this happens, the one thing I can manage with this horse is to get him to back up but this requires a large amount of effort. I'm not sure whether to take a more friendly approach as he now associates me as the one that scares him and attacks him but doesn't get anywhere or whether to continue with the groundwork. There is no way I can lunge him he won't go in a circle. Hacking is fine on the odd occasion I can catch him but that's all I can get out of him at the moment. What techniques can I try? Am I being too agressive?
The first part I have bolded is telling me that you have effectively trained him to behave this way. You took all pressure off and rewarded him for acting badly when you turned him loose right after he after so badly.

Let me explain how horses think and respond. The last thing the horse did right before someone released any pressure they had put on the horse is what the horse was rewarded for doing. That is how you teach a horse to do about everything you train him to do. So, you have taught this horse to be aggressive.

This situation has nothing to do with 'being friendly' and I assure you that he does not associate you with a reason to be fearful. He is simply above you on the proverbial 'pecking order' and he is trying to 'put you your place'. He is just one small step from full-out attacking you by savagely biting and pawing you. Have you seen one horse attack another for trying to get a bite of their grain? Have you seen horses with big bite marks where another horse has bitten them? That is what will be next for you if you do not teach this little monster that you are above him on the pecking order and that he needs to do exactly what you want him to do with no argument.

I can better tell you how to go about fixing this dangerous problem before you get hurt badly if you answer a few questions:

First of all -- How old are you?

Is there someone around that can help you?

In the meantime, I would recommend that you leave him completely alone until you have someone work with both you and him.
I have only been working with him for just over a month, he's not mine. For most of this time I have just been hacking with his owner who rides the horses field friend so he is happy to go out however only twice have I tried riding him alone. This is the outcome when I have tried. I understand that taking the pressure off and releasing him is the wrong way to act after him attacking me however in the situation where I can't get away from him and am being kicked I have no choice but to do so. This is why instantly after letting him go I try chasing him to show him punishment but it's a struggle due to him having little fear of me. When he charges at me he will stop if I come back at him and I can then get him to back away but that's all and then it just goes round in circles of me trying to chase him away and him charging at me.
I'm 17, I do have the option of help and I'm going to try working with him with a friend of mine who has more experience with horses like this, I came on here to look for broader opinions and ideas. Currently I'm just grooming him and letting him trust me however I think dominance is the key issue that needs to be addressed. How would you suggest going about this?
 
#5 ·
I 100% agree with Cherie, this horse is potentially dangerous for you to be handling.

The very last thing in the world I would ever think about when a horse is trying to boss or be aggressive, is whether or not I am being to aggressive back!

I can assure you that of he did that to me he would be in no doubt that I was the more aggressive of the two of us and if he tried that nonsense again he would be dead.

He would be touching his forelock with a hoof saying "Yes ma'am."

If he starts by shoving you with his head make sure that he cannot do it by having him walk alongside you and you can hold him near his head and prevent him from shoving you.

I would have a long line on him and be wearing gloves and carrying a long whip in my left hand. The moment he stopped he would have the whip across his backside.
If you do this expect him to leap forward, which he should do if you whack him hard enough.

I can assure you that by toughening up and treating him very firmly and fairly he will respect you far more than if you try to be 'nice and friendly'
 
#7 ·
1. I was told the poll or the stomach but I can see that the hind legs would be an easier target and obviously more expensive for the horse to lose I'll keep it for future reference.
2. The chasing you don't have to necessarily chase a horse so much that it exhausts you but enough to send it running. Not everyone is taught the same thing but that is what I was taught.


I agree get someone experienced to help its getting to a point where it is going to get ugly real quick.
 
#8 ·
I can see why taking an agressive approach works as I recognise horses behaviour. A year ago I would have been fine with taking this approach and probably be much better at asserting dominace. However I'm now not as comfortable with the idea of beating a horse into submission even if it is the only way around the problem, I don't believe a horse should be forced into working for us. Due to my attitude I'm probably not the best for him if this aggression is what he needs, it's not necessarily due to my lack of experience I recognise what he needs done I'm just not willing to beat a horse into doing what I want it to do. Thank you for the thoughts. If anyone has any different ideas please share.
 
#9 ·
i also agree completely with Cheri
I also think you are enabling the horse to act the way he is, and I certainly would not want you handling him-period.
No one is telling you to beat the horse into submission, but to allow a 1000 ib animal to consider himself dominant to you, thus free to charge you, ect, is well, plain irresponsible in the least, and dangerous in the extreme
Not only are you putting yourself at risk, but also allowing this horse to become spoiled, so that he can transfer this 'negative training', to other people, or at least attempt to do so.
I think your reasoning is messed up.
You never get after a horse in anger, hold a grudge or pick at a horse, but you do correct him as strongly as needed, then go on and treat him like nothing happened.
Perhaps really think on these words by Tom Dorrance; 'be as gentle with a horse as possible BUT, also as firm as needed, to make that horse a good citizen
No horse, even a stud is ever allowed to act aggressive towards me
The only advise I can give you, based on your position, is stop handling this horse period. Your mis guided idea of firmness, is actually cruel, as more horse wind up un wanted, allowed to become dangerous, though this type of thinking
 
#10 ·
I don't think anyone is advocating to beat this devil of a pony. Think of it this way: if this pony did the same exact thing to the lead horse in the pasture, what would that lead horse do? Two things more than likely, bite him, hard, or twirl and double barrel the devil pony.

No nagging, no beating, no on and on punishment. It is swift, hard and then done. They will probably be grazing together after a few minutes. No hard feelings, just boundaries having been set.

That is what you should do, because you have given him and you no other option.
 
#13 ·
Hollyculver, I believe you should STOP working with this horse unless you can get help from an experienced horseman(person). You have no real idea what you are doing, even if you mean well. You are ruining the horse and have put yourself in extreme danger of getting hurt. Also, it will get to the stage with this horse where anyone else that goes into his paddock could be attacked by him. For both your sakes get some real help. Do nothing with him that you can't follow through with. Leading, riding, brushing, anything
 
#14 ·
Agree 1000% with others. Op you need to realise what a dangerous position you're putting yourself in! And stop! Please op Think seriously about your safety(rearing at your face!!) and stay away from this horse, at least without experienced help. while he needs some effective lessons to counter what he's learned, for you to suddenly just challenge him now is likely to make him 'up the ante' with you. This horse sounds like he needs a very knowledgeable hand, to nip this very dangerous behaviour in the bud... Hopefully it is only with you, recently, not a long standing behaviour, so he may just need some 'reteaching' and you have lessons in handling too. In the meantime, reading up all you can on horse behaviour & training would be helpful too.
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#15 ·
However I'm now not as comfortable with the idea of beating a horse into submission even if it is the only way around the problem, I don't believe a horse should be forced into working for us.
WHAT?????

I do not see anyone telling you that you should be "beating him into submission". That method works even worse than what you're doing. BUT, what you are doing is the kind of handling that leads to many horses being sent to slaughter. Once they have learned that they can successfully attack people, they are often just hauled to sales, many times after they have gravely injured someone. There, they are picked up by the only person willing to bid on them -- the slaughter buyer.

I don't believe a horse should be forced into working for us.
I have news for you --- no one can "force" any horse to work for them. Horses are 'trained' to work -- to respond to what the handler / rider wants them to do with effective training methods. Just like no one can FORCE a horse to perform well, no one can pet, love and cajole a horse into performing well, either.

Horses must have respect for any person they are going to be trained by and cooperate with. Respect must come before there is any trust or cooperation. The respect you DO NOT have from this horse will result in zero trust and cooperation. Horses want to get along with and cooperate with those that show them good leadership qualities. Their 'herd mentality' tells them to hold those below them in their pecking order in complete disdain. In other words, they must have respect for you to like you and to want to get along with you. This is not anything like "beating a horse into submission"! Respect is earned -- not forced.

That statement alone tells me that you know absolutely nothing about how horses think and are trained. Again, you are endangering all other people that are around this horse and you are endangering the horse himself by interacting with him like you are. For his sake and yours, please have nothing more to do with him at all.
 
#17 ·
There is a time and place for physical discipline of a horse and it needs to be done with proper timing and like Smile pointed out “As gentle as possible, as firm as necessary.” How gentle, how firm and when are all things you learn the more you work with a horse.

This is a behavior that has probably been building for some time (if not specifically with you then probably with others).

He may have started by refusing to pick up a foot when you asked, pushing past you on the lead, running off in the pasture when he saw you coming to catch him…..any number of little things that he did to feel you out. When you (or someone else) failed to recognize his misstep and failed to set the boundaries by correcting it, he started exploring exactly where the boundaries were and has yet to run into any barrier to his behavior; voila! You have a rearing, charging horse.

Now you are stuck needing to work backwards and set the boundaries where they should have been. In the beginning, simply stopping him, backing him up when he pushed through the lead probably would have been enough, insisting upon him picking up the foot, or accepting being caught….no “beating” involved. But now, it appears that even basic handling has become a dangerous endeavor so you are limited in the type of training methods you can employ to remain safe.


In your working with this horse, I am less worried about your lack of willingness to “beat a horse into submission” than I am with your recognition of when corrective pressure needs to be consistently applied to avoid getting to this point again.

In essence, you can have someone “Fix” this behavior, but if you are unable to recognize the little challenges he will most likely present you, history will repeat itself.

If you prefer, don’t view this from a domination/alpha perspective. Look at it as a parent who disciplines their strong-willed child….in no uncertain terms, you are giving the horse the boundaries and self-discipline he needs to be a successful horse-citizen, living in the human world. Once you have those things set and know how to keep them set, you can move on to the more philosophical aspects of interaction such as creating willingness etc.

My suggestion to you would be two fold. First, get someone to work with this horse and get the dangerous behaviors under control, watch them and ask questions. Next, you, personally, start at the very beginning with ground manners. Don't settle for mediocre, make them shine like a new penny. No head butting, pushing, jigging etc. and progress from there.

Good Luck!
 
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#18 ·
I mean no offense to the OP, but she sounds inexperienced Obviously this horse is not well trained since one that was would be much more cooperative but the combination of the two is not working. I would not be thinking of any kind of respect training other than training this horse to lead correctly. It seems a round about way of gaining respect to think about lounging or any kind of "free training" when respect can be achieved on a lead. Start with the very basics and work up. I would have yanked that horses head away from me the first time he tried to head butt and he would have gotten a good smack if he tried it again, but that's me, and I don't expect someone inexperienced to do that correctly especially with a horse that could be dangerous. I think the OP needs to watch someone more experienced handle this situation. I appreciate the fact that she recognizes the problem and is seeking help, but at this point is putting herself at risk and not helping the horse any.
 
#22 ·
I don't think respect is "taught". Horses already understand respect. They're born knowing what it means because it's part of their language.

The issue is them regarding the handler as being worthy of their respect. In the horse world this means someone who is dominant. Submissive horses are the ones that release pressure when another horse pressures them, dominant horses are those who apply pressure until the other horse yields. The one that yields first is the submissive one.

All your interactions with this horse have been you submitting. When he decides not to do something and puts pressure on your by charging or rearing you release the pressure. Sometimes he is okay because he doesn't seemed fussed by what you're doing, but in effect you're just "sneaking" these times by. You only get to do what you want because he's not opposed to it at that time. That is not progress.

Being dominant doesn't necessarily mean hitting the horse, I know I don't. What it does mean is that in any fight you will do whatever it takes to make the horse yield. When I am challenged by a horse I commit to not giving in, to not yield, to do whatever it takes to be the winner. I look at a horse and I challenge them. For the most part, horses can sense this, there is something in the body language of a fighter, of someone who is committed compared to someone who isn't. If I ever get into a challenge with a horse and I'm the one who backs down - I know I'm done. That's it for me and that horse. Because I am not willing to go all the way.

So in effect, the aim is not to beat your horse into submission, the aim is to make the horse move away from you and 90% of the time that can be done without ever laying a hand on the horse. You just need to be scary and dangerous. 10% of the time it doesn't work. 10% of the time the horse has been spoiled by handlers who make idle threats and have taught the horse to ignore them. And I don't mean this personally or as a personal affront, but the way you're handling this horse is setting him up to need to be physically driven away by someone. You might not advocate for that method of training, which is fine, I certainly avoid it, but you are contributing to need for it.

As far as forcing horses... well I'm not on the bandwagon of "horses can't be forced". I believe we force horses to do everything. We force them to be captives, we force them to submit to ropes and halters and we force them to be ridden and I believe no horse would choose this. We don't necessarily use physical force because we don't need to, we're smarter than them and we trick them by "training" them, by applying pressure and the releasing we are tricking them into thinking our way is the only way. That the pressure in insurmountable unless they follow our way out. Little tricks build on other little ones and all of a sudden you have captured this horses mind without it even knowing. I'm not saying its all bad - if we didn't do it horses would probably be close to dying out. But it's something that you need to accept as a horse owner I think. Some don't, that's fine too, it's just my opinion.

People on here are responding to your story with their experiences and they might not all be for you, but its good to read them, understand them and usually you can get something from them.

With your situation... you respect your horse more, by fear of his hooves, than he does you. He is willing to go away all the way, to charge you down, to kick you or strike you, and you're not. No amount of chasing after you release him is going to change that, he'll just avoid you because you're inconsequential to him. And every time you actually challenge each other, not by catching him or chasing him or riding him, but by him deciding to do something, and you telling him otherwise he'll fight you on it. Hit the horse, don't hit the horse, it's all the same to me, but it sounds like you need help.
 
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