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Thoughts on Punishing A Naughty Horse/Pony

8K views 38 replies 19 participants last post by  Zexious 
#1 ·
The following piece of writing comes from the book: Training Horses By Janine Verschure.

Last couple of sentences of 'Determining Boundaries'
"An animal that does not understand why it is being punished will lose trust in its boss. It will do wonders if at that moment that the horse is being punished (by pulling with a yank of the rope or a tap with a whip) you speak to the horse with an angry and low "BAD!" The animal will in this way associate the words with being punished. When you have done this twice already only the spoken work "Bad" will be sufficient to punish the horse the third time. It speaks fir itself that you should never whip a horse!"

Okay, now that is over, it is question time.
I have been told a lot about punishing. Mostly on this site...
...other times on other sites or forums. Everyone's idea is a lot different with each person you ask.

Just wondering what is your thoughts on Punishing. No Whip or Whip?
Please don't go off at me as I'm just one confused little girl....
OPINIONS WELCOME!
 
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#2 ·
Timing is EVERYTHING.

A horse does not understand human sentiments. You could say carrot in a low mean voice.. still no difference. In a herd situation, one horse who boots another horse will not lower its tone and neigh, nor say bad. The physical act of body posture, i.e ears back, snaking the neck and head, and then the ultimate kick, is how a horse knows how to respond.

I am not against using a whip. At all. We will never physically be able to over power a horse, but we have to use what we can, but correctly. A whip is a good tool to help with food aggression, or a horse that refuses to walk forward. As a training aid, it has its value.

But, right time and right place. I like to think of it less as punishment, and more negative reinforcement.
Make the right thing easy, and the wrong thing difficult.

Horse behaviour doesn't differ that greatly, but you will get horses that are more nervous and shy compared to horses that have aggression issues and bolshiness. Some times it what works for one won't work for another, its not black and white.

The biggest thing you need to figure out is not HOW to "punish" your horse, but to figure out WHY the behaviour is there in the first place and to work towards eliminating it.
 
#4 ·
That passage fails to state the level of discipline needed for any given action or the level of knowledge of the horse. A well broke horse is going to obviously have much better manners than one that hasn't been around a lot of human contact. Some also just have an attitude. For example, some will react to just a simple, "Hey!" if they step into your space. Others need a physical reminder that you rank above them.

I will dish out as much as is required to get the message across. My older mare will react to me just giving her an angry look whereas my younger one, when I first got her, had to learn the hard way that she was not allowed in my personal space unless I invite her.
 
#6 ·
That passage fails to state the level of discipline needed for any given action or the level of knowledge of the horse. A well broke horse is going to obviously have much better manners than one that hasn't been around a lot of human contact. Some also just have an attitude. For example, some will react to just a simple, "Hey!" if they step into your space. Others need a physical reminder that you rank above them.

I will dish out as much as is required to get the message across. My older mare will react to me just giving her an angry look whereas my younger one, when I first got her, had to learn the hard way that she was not allowed in my personal space unless I invite her.


Regardless of age the horse should know not invade personal space before it leaves its mother.

I have seen the well broke horse take its owner down the inside lines of the yard during feed time, because it wanted its feed, whilst my three year old stallion watched on with amusement.

Age has very little to do with it, the training it has on a daily basis and the way that the horse is handled is what counts.

I purchased a 16yo who had reached M level dressage. This horse was a complete snot and tried to do exactly what it wanted when it wanted, including picking me up by my side. I battered him with a broom because he wouldn't let me go after I punched the side of his face. I have worked with 2yo who have far more respect.

Age has very little to do with it, training and upkeep of training does.
 
#5 ·
No problems.

These are just my views, however, and you will find people who don't agree and have different opinions on horse training. This has worked through and through for every horse I have worked with, though.

Timing doesn't come naturally, its something you have to learn and pick up on.

If a horse boots you, there is no way you can wait till you are out of hospital to crack seven bells out of it. You can only train to remedy it, and prevent it from happening in the future.
 
#7 ·
If your horse has discipline then you don't have to resort to punishment in the first place.

I see so many ill mannered horses that get away with the little things until one day they do something with more statement to it and their owner cracks and wails on them. If the person had been dealing with the little issues prior then the likelihood of needing a CTJ meeting would be much smaller.

I also really like what Duffy has said thusfar.
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#8 ·
If your horse has discipline then you don't have to resort to punishment in the first place.

I see so many ill mannered horses that get away with the little things until one day they do something with more statement to it and their owner cracks and wails on them. If the person had been dealing with the little issues prior then the likelihood of needing a CTJ meeting would be much smaller.

I also really like what Duffy has said thusfar.
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This is very true.

The 'small incidents' as I like to call them. A horse lipping you, grabbing your zipper and nosing you. People think its oh so cute.

Then the horse gives you a proper shove, as happened to my mother, and you smack your head off a wall.

Or the horse bites you.

I was asked to work with an 8yo mare. Lovely mover, looker and sweetie allround. The owner bought her as a foal, and thought it was cute to let her rear up and put her front legs on her shoulders.

The horse is no longer trainable due to 'cute rearing'. There is no medical issues with the horse what so ever.

I ran away before they could finish the sentence, and told them to stick the mare in foal, or find someone daft enough to take it on.

I should have put TIMING and CONSISTENCY is also a big part. One day fooling around, then the next day being all serious when the poor creature wants to fool again just undoes all the previous work.
 
#9 ·
You're kidding... People never cease to irritate me. Horses are not dogs. Glad you hightailed it out of there.

I knew a 12hh lesson pony once, the BO thought it'd be cool to make her into a "trick horse". That meant lifting a bucket of grain up in front of her to get her to rear up. After she caught on I was the only one allowed to feed her because come breakfast time she'd be up, down, up, down, up up n over. Ridiculous.
 
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#10 ·
You're kidding... People never cease to irritate me. Horses are not dogs. Glad you hightailed it out of there.

I knew a 12hh lesson pony once, the BO thought it'd be cool to make her into a "trick horse". That meant lifting a bucket of grain up in front of her to get her to rear up. After she caught on I was the only one allowed to feed her because come breakfast time she'd be up, down, up, down, up up n over. Ridiculous.

Broken enough bones riding people's crazy things! Not any more.

Ponies can be the worst, people mistake their size and still don't think they have the power. After seeing a shettie drag three grown men down a yard, I have no issues reminding people that they will always win!:evil:

But, you learn by doing. When I look back to some of the behaviours that my own horses developed, I think "If I had been XYZ it wouldn't have happened"... but no one is perfect, and having a good trainer who knows what they are doing is worth their weight in gold.
 
#11 ·
I've always held the idea that the punishment must fit the crime and be done RIGHT when the crime's committed (and I agree with DuffyDuck). If a horse bites me I'm either going to bite them back, or give them a smack, or if it's nothing serious give a tug on the leadrope/halter. I have hit a horse with a whip harshly on two occasions and that was because the horse decided in the middle of training to trample me and the trainer (with malicious intent). That being said, there's a difference between punishing something that's done in fear and something that's done in malice or obstinate. I feel that that's where the wrongful punishment can be dolled out the most. If it's in fear (or pain) I never hit and try and work them through it; if it's the other thing they're having a little 'chat' with me and the severity depends solely on them. I was kicked by a notorious double barrel kicker once (glancing blow thank god!) and whirled around like the horses in the pasture do and kicked it right back in it's butt several times. That horse never kicked a day in it's life again. (And I was kinda proud that I got my foot up that high that many times. haha)

I've found that once I have a couple of good meetings with a badly behaved horse, eventually I don't even need to lift a finger as I just give a growl and shout "Don't you dare" or their name or something. I used to not think that they understood tones either but I'm beginning to realize that they do, some are just better at it than others.
 
#13 · (Edited)
Better still, develop the discipline of yourself. This will carry over to not only this particular horse, but to every one you will meet in the future and makes punishment un-necessary. Punishment is a reaction to a perceived wrong-doing on the horse's part and is indicative of the rider's lack of foresight and subsequent frustration, fear of failure, and fear of being hurt. In every single case of horses acting aggressively that I've either heard about or personally experienced, there was always a human being involved who was whompin' and a-whoopin' the horse at the same time, chasing him or making him "come to Jesus" (one of my personal favs). Those people (and I include my former self in that number) fail to see the connection between cause and effect in the results that they're getting. The short answer is, punishment doesn't work the way you think. It actually creates more of the very thing that you're trying to eliminate. Discipline means setting him up to succeed because you have the discipline to develop your awareness, timing, and skill. Thus, to punish the horse for doing something wrong evaporates as if by magic from your range of possible solutions! But it takes some time. These are habits and patterns of thought that we learn, become ingrained into thinking, and take some work to un-learn. But if you look at the best horsemen, whether alive today or past masters, in any discipline of riding you choose, you'll find that the higher up you go the fewer instances of punishment or thinking that punishment is necessary there are.
 
#14 ·
I'm a big supporter of watching horses in a herd environment and treating them the same way that their alpha would treat them. I weigh 130 pounds, there is no tool in this world that will give me the strength to inflict as much force as the kick or bite of another horse.

Anyone who truly knew anything about horse behavior wouldn't go around spouting "you should never have to whip a horse". Sometimes, even the most dominant of alphas has to remind the lower horses of the pecking order and if a pinned ear doesn't work...then the hooves and teeth come out.

IMHO, the reason that so many people have respect issues from their horses is because they are unwilling to do what is necessary to win the fight for dominance when their horse picks it. They are afraid of hurting the horse's body or, more commonly, the horse's feelings *eyeroll*.

Being able to punish a horse effectively without making them afraid of you, as Duffyduck said, is all about timing. I've had to take in after almost every one of my horses at least once. Some of them, in Rafe and Taz's instance, many times and occasionally pretty violently. Still, in spite of all that, they aren't afraid of me. They approach me and follow me in the pasture. They don't care if I swing my arms around or toward their head. I can fling ropes and sticks at them and, so long as I keep my body position and attitude positive, they stand rock steady without so much as a flinch.

BUT, if they do something bad, I switch my posture to "angry alpha" and they correct themselves immediately. Not because they are afraid of me, but because they respect me.

A scared horse is afraid all the time, a respectful horse is only afraid when they know they screwed up.
 
#15 ·
Anyone who truly knew anything about horse behavior wouldn't go around spouting "you should never have to whip a horse". Sometimes, even the most dominant of alphas has to remind the lower horses of the pecking order and if a pinned ear doesn't work...then the hooves and teeth come out.
Positioning, precise and judicious timing in the application of pressure while simultaneously ensuring a clear direction by which he finds relief from that pressure,

or

Whipping.

I know what feels better to me and achieves the superior results. Whether you were talking to me or not, the reason I feel so confident in saying that is because I've done both. I started in the race world and the "just get it done by any means necessary", through the "emulate dominant horse behavior and get after them accordingly", and all the way through to what I'm saying now. I've also spent the past three years of my life living in a cabin with no plumbing or electricity with a herd of horses right outside the door, observing their behavior. I'm not saying that you're wrong, but I am saying that there are things that exist that work a lot better.
 
#16 · (Edited)
"A scared horse is afraid all the time, a respectful horse is only afraid when they know they screwed up"


very interesting and well put. Respect for the rider has to be, at least for the most of us, based a bit in fear. Fear of the known consequences of a bad behavior. And , they'll know that becuase the rider demonstrated that at one point, enough that the horse believes it. Once they believe you, you don't have to do much to remind them to do their job like they should.

But, I appreciate Ian's comment on how the very best horsemen/women really don't need to use any kind of violent action or punishment. They are SO believable to the horse, that they never have to prove it. Most of US do, have to prove it, I mean. So, most of us do have to convince the horse that we have the capability to reinforce our wishes and get compliance. I am well aware that I am sometimes flailing around with way too much ill-placed pressure when I am lunging or riding. I know for sure my trainer could get it done with an ounce of pressure, while I am applying pounds of it. That's why she's the pro and I'm the amatuer. We all do the best we can.


but, in general, as for the "punishment" of a wrong, the amount of punishment correction pressure a person puts on should match the amount of pressure, or resistance, the horse is putting out.
 
#18 ·
I use verbal commands and tone of voice a lot. I find that horses soon pick up on that - saying bad horse in the same tone as you say good horse is not likely to have the same effect as if you develop a really good 'angry voice' or an "I mean business so don't mess with me' voice
Initially it might be used with some sort of physical punishment but horses soon learn the connection between the tone you use and what might accompany it
I can actually pat my horse and speak in a 'Good horse' tone and they will see that as a 'reward' or smack them with no more force but use the 'Bad horse' tone and they certainly know the difference
 
#21 ·
I can actually pat my horse and speak in a 'Good horse' tone and they will see that as a 'reward' or smack them with no more force but use the 'Bad horse' tone and they certainly know the difference
I'm with you. Beginning to suspect that this business of using your voice and the effect that it has on the horse is due for re-examination. Not because the horse understands the English language, but because the words we use are reflective of our thoughts which instantly reflect in our entire physical expression. We think 'good', and then say the word, and then relax, breathe easy, and that's what the horse can feel.

It's really amazing to think that we can to a large extent shape how this horse is going to be for better or worse and it all starts with the thoughts that are bouncing around upstairs!
 
#20 ·
If mine does something 'naughty' he gets an instant slap and a 'no' in a low voice. He has learnt what this means and now wont do it a second time.

But thats it, its kept short and sweet instantly when its happened so he knows what he is being told off for. Then I just carry on with what im doing and its left at that.

Non of this carrying on telling them off 5 minutes after the event. Its over in 2 seconds and weve moved on.
 
#22 ·
I agree that timing is everything. Horses are creatures that "live in the moment." If you wait to punish, you'll just confuse them.

That being said, I also think that the punishment should fit the crime. My gelding struck at me once. He didn't like that I was trying to desensitize him to the clippers and struck out, clipping me on the thigh. He could have broken my leg if I hadn't been moving away from him. I didn't even wait for his feet to touch the ground before I took after him with the crop (happened to have it hanging on my wrist) and ran him backwards so fast that he nearly went over. We went backward 90ft before he finally submitted. We stood there for a second while he licked and chewed, then I turned around and walked him back to where we started at and acted like nothing had happened. In my eyes, harming a human, whether out of frustration or aggression, is completely unacceptable and the horse needs to understand that.

There are only two behaviors that I will not tolerate for one second and will punish with extreme predjudice: biting and kicking/striking. I don't care the reason for the behavior. It is completely unacceptable.
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#23 ·
the only reason for talking at a horse is to help the talker. you say "good horse" and as Ian said, you feel better and you release .
that's why I have taken on the habit of my trainer , who says "Thank you" to the hrose when the horse finally understands or submits and does the right thing. It helps the rider remember to reward with a cessation of pressure (something the rider/handler can forget to do if the there has been a "fight" going on for some time to get a horse to make the correct choice). AND, it helps the rider stay in the frame of mind that we are "asking" for something and waiting in there with that request until the horse gives it to us. We don't MAKE him move over or back up, or slow down or . . , . you make a car do that. you ask the horse to make his body do those things, and you thank him when he does. it's a different way of thinking, and while the actions taken might be the same, it is very helpful to say "thank you" out loud , so that you can see how many times things go right, since we often see only the times when things go wrong.
 
#24 ·
Horses have good memories, but a short attention span, which lasts about 3 seconds. If your horse misbehaves, you have to correct it within 3 seconds or your horse won't understand what he did wrong.

To answer a question, I don't consider what I do as "punishing" my horse. I consider it more as correcting misbehaviour. I don't use a whip specifically as for this purpose; I use it as a cue and an extension of my arm. If I'm lunging my horse and she isn't cantering, I'll flip the whip around and, if necessary, tap her on the hind end. If she kicks at me (which she never has, luckily), I'll slap her with it, the same way another horse would nip/kick her for the same attitude. She knows it's me, not the whip, and she has to listen to me and respect me as her leader. I do not mindlessly whip my horse, but I wouldn't NOT use a whip to correct misbehaviour just because it's a whip and it must be cruel. No, it's just an extension of my arm, so I can reach her and correct any misbehaving before it becomes a problem. :)
 
#25 ·
Firstly, I think the word punishment is not typically an accurate description of any part of good horsemanship. a dictionary describes it this way:

" suffering, pain, or loss that serves as retribution

b : a penalty inflicted on an offender through judicial procedure
3
: severe, rough, or disastrous treatment "

punishment works on humans, because we dwell on and learn from past mistakes after the mistake has occurred. A common one would be a child breaking the rules and being sent to their room to "think about what they've done", or a criminal doing time for a crime committed. A horse doesn't learn like that. they learn from instant corrections. If you wait more than 5 seconds to correct and discipline a horse, they have moved on, and your correction will just confuse and upset the horse, who no longer sees the connection between, for example, biting and getting slapped for it, or bucking and being tapped with the whip.

I have no problem with virtually any tool when used correctly, whips and spurs included, but when someone tries to punish the horse for past behavior using a harsh piece of equipment, or interprets behaviour wrongly, I take issue. For example, a girl I know was riding a horse that was refusing to go forward, especially off the property or without another horse. Her first reaction was to use a crop and some spurs to reinforce her point. She asked me to ride and evaluate his behaviour for her. He went effortlessly, alone, through all the problem areas, I never even had to use leg, didn't even hesitate. the horse was feeding off his rider, who was nervous, and put pressure on the reins whenever she go tense. horse reacted by following her lead and stopping. She was punishing the horse for listening to her.

I think its essential to evaluate yourself as a rider/handler thoroughly, and the motivation for discipline. it should NEVER be done in anger, spite or frustration.

I don't often use verbal commands, although a few are handy to have(like whoa) and I do use them when starting a horse under saddle, because verbal cues can help them make the connection between a command on the ground and one under saddle. Past that I think that growling/yelling/firm vocal commands just come across as predatory.
 
#26 ·
THIS is why we suggest newbies get help from experienced horseman. It's a balance between head knowledge and experience. I've owned horses since 1985 and my herd leaders have always made the herd members behave, even if they also play together. You KNOW when you horses respect you when you are not actively training. This morning, for instance, I used the catwalk in the corner of the shelter to drop down a bale from the loft into the shelter's manger. I accidentally also dropped a piece of baling twine. When I went downstairs and opened the door to the shelter, my 1,450 lb herd leader who had been standing and eating right NEXT to the door, turned towards me and moved away in an attitude of respect. When they respect you they are ALWAYS paying attention to you.
During the winter I am always cleaning his stall with him in it when he has to be stalled for several days. There is no fear, but I move HIM out of the way when I do this.
Still, when I need to retrieve something in the pasture and it's windy or getting dark I take a whip with me so that none of my 3 horses thinks he or she can run into me.
I HAVE used whips before to beat a horse out of the way. I don't have the same bulk and weight as any normal sized horse and I find whips useful. On my finished horses I would flip a whip out and my horse would respond. Finished horses learn new skills bc they know to move away from a whip and see this as an extension of the trainer's arm.
Anthropomorphism creates WAAAAYYYYY too many "monsters" nowadays, and only someone who sees a diamond in the rough bothers to turn them around. Mostly they become the victims of neglect and get abandoned.
Do NOT be afraid of the whip, but, more importantly do NOT be afraid of educating yourself in training your horse CORRECTLY.
 
#27 ·
I prefer 'correction' to 'punishment'. Punishing something has negative connotations as Blue spark has pointed out.

Very, very rarely do I get in a big scuffle with a horse. If you go through everything in a step by step process you really shouldn't find anything along the way that results in a violent reaction from you horse that 'needs' a big correction. Even then I am unlikely to do a big correction. Why? I'm 5'0 and 95 lbs, if that horse decides to escalate again, there isn't a whole lot I can do. In stead i'll go back to something small and find where I first got a 'no' and go from there and build everything back up.

I do use physical corrections quite a bit though. They understand it and do not resent it. However a trainer should always be working towards using less pressure as the horse comes to respect you more.
 
#28 ·
As said, timing is the all important factor.

I correct as it happens and if I cannot then I will set the horse up to have a second go and then correct.

Ian, when you get a colt that thinks he is king pin, swings his backside to you and goes to kick, he needs instant correction and I will use anything that is to hand.

An example of this was a foal still on his mother. She was a tough mare who would not allow the foal to eat hard feed with her. She was eating from the manger and the foal had a feed on top of the hay feeder.
My stables all have chains across the door and when I went to go in to top up their water whilst they were both eating, I saw the foal eye me and knew what he was thinking. Sure enough he swung his body across the door, sill watching me whilst eating. I had a pitchfork and skip in one hand and a bucket of water in the other, I turned the handle of the fork so it was forward and kept going. As soon as that foal lifted his leg to kick at me, I gave him a poke in the flank with the handle. Boy, did he jump! He ran and hid behind his dam and I topped the water up, removed the poop and walked out. He returned to how feed and two minutes later I went back to the door. Immediately he moved how body to give me room. Simple. He was not afraid of me, he realised that acting badly brought a consequence. He wasn't hurt just surprised.

I sold him as a yearling. His new owner, a very experienced horsewoman, remarked that he was always so easy to do anything with and never dreamt of kicking, unlike many youngsters she had through her hands.

Any form of correction needs to be done there and then.
 
#30 ·
I am enjoying all of this discussion and have found reason why my boy is a bit unrespectful to me. It's because I don't show enough 'alpha' behaviours. I'll have to try that when I get home from school. Sounds like it just might work.

All of these suggestions make a lot more sense then what I have read.
Thanks guys for giving me a better understanding of bad horse behaviour correction. :D
 
#31 ·
Be wary of thinking of things in a good vs bad way. It can get you trapped in a mental rut that blinds you to easier, better, less stressful ways of approaching problems. Horses do not ever do "bad" behaviors. They simply behave in a way that has gotten them some sort of reward in the past such as a release of pressure, the human backing up/off, the human stopping whatever thing they were doing and leaving the horse alone, a treat, or a chance to rest quietly. Horses don't behave 'badly', they behave in such a way as to get what THEY want, it is only when that is at cross purposes for what we humans want that it gets the label 'bad.'

I do have a list of completely unacceptable behaviors that I will not allow, so I am not saying there aren't things that need to be stopped, and quickly, just that the horse is not a malicious animal out to make things difficult. They just do what has worked for them in the past.
 
#32 ·
that's why this thread title is a bit odd: the word "naughty" implies that the horse is trying to misbehave , to get attention or something like a small child would do. implies an understanding of doing something wrong, and shame , a totally human concept.
 
#33 ·
Havent' read many replies but thought I'd add my 2c... What the writer is saying IMO, in a long way, is that you can associate a signal or 'cue' with punishment, as with whatever other action. What tends to come out of my mouth when 'correcting' a horse is 'uh-uh!' and my horses respond to that(funny when it's at a distance & they didn't know they were being watched!).

My thoughts on punishment... It is a valuable 'tool'. I find it's best to concentrate on using other methods - positive & negative reinforcement to teach a horse. I see punishment as more of a 'fall back' measure to 'buy you time' in teaching, or an emergency measure. BUT of course horses do learn from it(provided it's well timed etc... & sometimes what they learn is still different from what you want them to!) and I'm certainly not against using it judiciously, when the need arises.

The biggest problems I see with punishment are firstly that many people don't have a good understanding of how horses learn & therefore are often inadvertantly incorrect in their use of punishment, as with reinforcement. I think it's so valuable for people to learn the principles of equine behaviour & behavioural training. Also people often tend to get more focussed on 'correcting' the 'bad' than on teaching & reinforcing the 'good'. They get hung up on 'respect' and 'dominance' and 'obedience' and forget to consider, or don't have a clue about the horse's point of view, why they are motivated to do whatever.
 
#34 ·
Should have stopped at the reply to OP without reading the thread, but now I've got into it & want to add more than 2c... there goes my spare time between jobs again!


Firstly, as with other stuff, I think differences of interpretation on the term 'punishment' are behind a lot of disagreement. I've been called a 'freak' before because I gave a dictionary definition on a forum, but I'm surprised at the definitions Blue Spark gave, that it didn't include the behavioural definition. I agree wholeheartedly with you BS, Ian & co, based upon those definitions, I do not agree with that sort used against a horse. But I(& it seems many) think of punishment behaviourally, just that it's an unpleasant stimuli associated with a behaviour in order to weaken it.


Therefore any form of pressure, force, etc, in the name of training is sort of punishment. Therefore also the 'waters' between positive punishment & negative reinforcement are murky, as you need to apply punishment in order to be able to remove it/reinforce the horse. I think it's understood differently by the animal though & I think it'd take me a book to explain all the differences.



There's also the very muddy waters of the term 'respect' & what this means to different people. Another book in itself!



In every single case of horses acting aggressively that I've either heard about or personally experienced, there was always a human being involved who was whompin' and a-whoopin' the horse at the same time, chasing him or

I suppose you haven't seen that 'Buck' movie then? Granted I don't know what other 'methods' they'd tried but that woman's aggressive stallion appeared to be made that way due to being spoilt & mollicoddled. But yes, I think the vast majority comes under the heading 'violence begets violence'... or perhaps 'domineering begets...'


I'm a big supporter of watching horses in a herd environment and treating them the same way that their alpha would treat them. I weigh 130 pounds, there is no tool in this world that will give me the strength to inflict as much force as the kick or bite of another horse.

What I think is potentially problematic with that idea is that some people(not assuming BTW) tend to take it too far, forget there are other, equally valid ways & considerations. And take the 'horses hurt eachother more than I could' to justify using all the force they can. After all, horses can kill eachother too – should we aim for that just because it's natural? IMHO studying natural horse behaviour & understanding how to use it is invaluable. But just because it's 'natural' doesn't make it the only or always 'right' answer, or vice versa.


Also a lot of ideas about 'dominance' & 'alpha' etc are based not on equine ethology but on limited studies of wolves. I don't personally hold much to the whole 'dominance theory' especially with horses, although I do believe it's important to become a respected 'leader'.

Anyone who truly knew anything about horse behavior wouldn't go around spouting "you should never have to whip a horse". Sometimes, even the most dominant of alphas has to remind the lower horses...

I agree personally that sometimes it's appropriate, but disagree with the 'anyone who truly knew' bit partly because I think it depends on your understanding and view of 'dominating' v's leading. I do think there's a big difference & that the leader & the 'dominant' horse aren't always the same beast. I haven't looked him up for years, but I remember an article from Mark Rashid that explained it well.


IMHO, the reason that so many people have respect issues from their horses is because they are unwilling to do what is necessary to win the fight for dominance when their horse picks it.

I agree also with this, but not generally with 'fighting for dominance'. I think getting into 'dominance challenges' often leads to... side effects. There are also more ways to 'win' than direct attack. Perhaps looking up the above article will explain the apparent contradiction...


The only reason for talking at a horse is to help the talker. You say "good horse" and as Ian said, you feel better and you release .

That I disagree with. Not that it doesn't work as Ian says too but that it's not the only effect/use. I find voice cues, whether for specific behaviours or as a 'bridge' for punishment or reinforcement valuable personally.


difference in my horses behavior if I go into the barn in a bad mood for whatever reason even the best behaved one will act up in some small way

Yes, they sense our intentions, feelings & read our bodylanguage... often much better than we may appreciate I think. I recently read a (bit rainbows & butterflies IMO, but...) book that spoke about being 'congruent' in our emotions & behaviors with horses, because they know how we're feeling & if we try to hide it & be 'incongruous' the horse can start to distrust us. My horses all come to the gate when they see me & are all friendly & like to 'hang out' with me. A few years back, I was having some family issues & sometimes just wanted to hang out with my non-human buddies. But it always seemed to be that when I was most in need, inexplicably, my sensitive 4 legged 'bestie' just didn't want to know me, even though I tried to 'leave my troubles at the gate' & approach him as normal. After reading that book, I started approaching my horses 'warts & all' & low and behold, my favourite sensitive boy became actually more sensitive & 'comforting' with me!


Be wary of thinking of things in a good vs bad way. It can get you trapped in a mental rut that blinds you to easier, better, less stressful ways of approaching problems. Horses do not ever do "bad" behaviors. They simply behave in a way that has gotten them some sort of reward in the past such as a release of pressure, the human backing up/off, the human stopping whatever thing they were doing and leaving the horse alone, a treat, or a chance to rest quietly. Horses don't behave 'badly', they behave in such a way as to get what THEY want, it is only when that is at cross purposes for what we humans want that it gets the label 'bad.'

I do have a list of completely unacceptable behaviors that I will not allow, so I am not saying there aren't things that need to be stopped, and quickly, just that the horse is not a malicious animal out to make things difficult. They just do what has worked for them in the past.

That is very well said & needs to be repeated in full! ;-) I think that's a major reason for people to learn behavioural theory & equine behaviour, because it helps you change your mindset to one that's more in line with how horses really 'work'.
 
#36 ·
I suppose you haven't seen that 'Buck' movie then? Granted I don't know what other 'methods' they'd tried but that woman's aggressive stallion appeared to be made that way due to being spoilt & mollicoddled. But yes, I think the vast majority comes under the heading 'violence begets violence'... or perhaps 'domineering begets...'
There's a whole lot about the story of that horse that wasn't told in Buck's documentary.
 
#37 · (Edited)
^I bet there is... to most of the 'interesting' examples the 'gurus' use! Just giving an eg that I don't know that aggression(perceived or otherwise) on the human's part is the only reason for a horse aggressing - allowing a young, bolshie, testosterone driven boy to walk all over you & call the shots is going to potentially blow up in your face when you decide not to do as you're told!

& another good post Foxhunter. Re studies into animal's reasoning abilities, yes they have studied horses, though I'm not sure as to the extent & it was a long time ago last time I looked into it. In the comparison, horses rate quite a bit lower than dogs on reasoning. The tests done showed that dogs for eg could associate abstracted ideas (cause & effects) if they were within about 3 seconds of eachother, while horses could only associate cause & effect reliably at the time of the 'cause' or within about a second. So... 'the 3 second rule' is another thing about dogs, not horses. ;-)

Oh & BTW, meant to add more 'smileys' to the post above, so you'd better understand my drift & it wasn't supposed to sound all sober & righteous like some of it does!
 
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