Should have stopped at the reply to OP without reading the thread, but now I've got into it & want to add more than 2c... there goes my spare time between jobs again!
Firstly, as with other stuff, I think differences of interpretation on the term 'punishment' are behind a lot of disagreement. I've been called a 'freak' before because I gave a dictionary definition on a forum, but I'm surprised at the definitions Blue Spark gave, that it didn't include the behavioural definition. I agree wholeheartedly with you BS, Ian & co, based upon those definitions, I do not agree with that sort used against a horse. But I(& it seems many) think of punishment behaviourally, just that it's an unpleasant stimuli associated with a behaviour in order to weaken it.
Therefore any form of pressure, force, etc, in the name of training is sort of punishment. Therefore also the 'waters' between positive punishment & negative reinforcement are murky, as you need to apply punishment in order to be able to remove it/reinforce the horse. I think it's understood differently by the animal though & I think it'd take me a book to explain all the differences.
There's also the very muddy waters of the term 'respect' & what this means to different people. Another book in itself!
In every single case of horses acting aggressively that I've either heard about or personally experienced, there was always a human being involved who was whompin' and a-whoopin' the horse at the same time, chasing him or
I suppose you haven't seen that 'Buck' movie then? Granted I don't know what other 'methods' they'd tried but that woman's aggressive stallion appeared to be made that way due to being spoilt & mollicoddled. But yes, I think the vast majority comes under the heading 'violence begets violence'... or perhaps 'domineering begets...'
I'm a big supporter of watching horses in a herd environment and treating them the same way that their alpha would treat them. I weigh 130 pounds, there is no tool in this world that will give me the strength to inflict as much force as the kick or bite of another horse.
What I think is potentially problematic with that idea is that some people(not assuming BTW) tend to take it too far, forget there are other, equally valid ways & considerations. And take the 'horses hurt eachother more than I could' to justify using all the force they can. After all, horses can kill eachother too – should we aim for that just because it's natural? IMHO studying natural horse behaviour & understanding how to use it is invaluable. But just because it's 'natural' doesn't make it the only or always 'right' answer, or vice versa.
Also a lot of ideas about 'dominance' & 'alpha' etc are based not on equine ethology but on limited studies of wolves. I don't personally hold much to the whole 'dominance theory' especially with horses, although I do believe it's important to become a respected 'leader'.
Anyone who truly knew anything about horse behavior wouldn't go around spouting "you should never have to whip a horse". Sometimes, even the most dominant of alphas has to remind the lower horses...
I agree personally that sometimes it's appropriate, but disagree with the 'anyone who truly knew' bit partly because I think it depends on your understanding and view of 'dominating' v's leading. I do think there's a big difference & that the leader & the 'dominant' horse aren't always the same beast. I haven't looked him up for years, but I remember an article from Mark Rashid that explained it well.
IMHO, the reason that so many people have respect issues from their horses is because they are unwilling to do what is necessary to win the fight for dominance when their horse picks it.
I agree also with this, but not generally with 'fighting for dominance'. I think getting into 'dominance challenges' often leads to... side effects. There are also more ways to 'win' than direct attack. Perhaps looking up the above article will explain the apparent contradiction...
The only reason for talking at a horse is to help the talker. You say "good horse" and as Ian said, you feel better and you release .
That I disagree with. Not that it doesn't work as Ian says too but that it's not the only effect/use. I find voice cues, whether for specific behaviours or as a 'bridge' for punishment or reinforcement valuable personally.
difference in my horses behavior if I go into the barn in a bad mood for whatever reason even the best behaved one will act up in some small way
Yes, they sense our intentions, feelings & read our bodylanguage... often much better than we may appreciate I think. I recently read a (bit rainbows & butterflies IMO, but...) book that spoke about being 'congruent' in our emotions & behaviors with horses, because they know how we're feeling & if we try to hide it & be 'incongruous' the horse can start to distrust us. My horses all come to the gate when they see me & are all friendly & like to 'hang out' with me. A few years back, I was having some family issues & sometimes just wanted to hang out with my non-human buddies. But it always seemed to be that when I was most in need, inexplicably, my sensitive 4 legged 'bestie' just didn't want to know me, even though I tried to 'leave my troubles at the gate' & approach him as normal. After reading that book, I started approaching my horses 'warts & all' & low and behold, my favourite sensitive boy became actually more sensitive & 'comforting' with me!
Be wary of thinking of things in a good vs bad way. It can get you trapped in a mental rut that blinds you to easier, better, less stressful ways of approaching problems. Horses do not ever do "bad" behaviors. They simply behave in a way that has gotten them some sort of reward in the past such as a release of pressure, the human backing up/off, the human stopping whatever thing they were doing and leaving the horse alone, a treat, or a chance to rest quietly. Horses don't behave 'badly', they behave in such a way as to get what THEY want, it is only when that is at cross purposes for what we humans want that it gets the label 'bad.'
I do have a list of completely unacceptable behaviors that I will not allow, so I am not saying there aren't things that need to be stopped, and quickly, just that the horse is not a malicious animal out to make things difficult. They just do what has worked for them in the past.
That is very well said & needs to be repeated in full! ;-) I think that's a major reason for people to learn behavioural theory & equine behaviour, because it helps you change your mindset to one that's more in line with how horses really 'work'.