08-08-2008, 04:48 PM
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#11 | Foal
Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: California
Posts: 30
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Originally Posted by Dumas'_Grrrl Melony, Do NOT remove the halter! I would encourage you to get some help. Maybe, your Grandfather? He has the right idea IMO. Sometimes you have to use a bit a of a heavy hand to get the horse to a point where you can begin to change it's mind. What I mean by this is, think of wild mustangs that the BLM rounds up. Some of them go on to be wonderful companions and very trustworthy mounts. Their beginings aren't always picture perfect though. Round ups are rough on the horses and they are caught with lassoes and herded and pushed and scared....the end results are fabulous though. I would suggest leaving a short leadrope on the halter as well. if she has a safe pen to be in with it on. It is going to take LOTS of handleing. I have even seen some horses that you have had to use portable panels to ever shrink the size of their pen untill the horse was kind of sandwiched between the panel and the fence so that a halter and lead can even be put on them. Please be safe! | Don't worry about the halter part. I can put it on anytime I want. While I hand feed her, I can clip it on her, she doesn't mind usually, as long as I don't pull on it right away, which I don't. And as long as it's under her head she's not afraid of it.
I know what you mean but I honestly don't feel I would be able to use any kind of force. The most I may be able to tolerate is tying her down so I can brush her, but I'm afraid that may encourage her to start kicking. And if she does that then... i mean, what will i do? Besides get professional help.
Btw, sending her away is absolutely out of the question. I don't trust any trainer, great past or not. A friend of my father's sent out their dog to a trainer, this trainer was supposed to be extremely good and had a great track record. But when they sent the dog back, at first they sent the WRONG DOG. It was SOMEONE ELSE'S DOG. And then, after they got the problem fixed, the dog they sent back was no longer that man's dog -- it was a figment. He was absolutely scarred, he wouldn't even so much as pick up a stick, let alone pick up a duck or other poultry -- hunting dog, you see -- and he was completely opposite of the dog he was before he was sent away.
The point I'm trying to make is, if I send Epona away, I can't be sure if the trainer will crack because she won't respond correctly and will start beating her, training her with fear and not with trust. I can't risk that. She's been damaged enough, she doesn't need more.
I also won't accept any other trainer that tells me to discipline this horse. Clearly that's what's been done to her before and that's why she despises humans. She needs someone who will love her now, not someone who will tie her down, even if it's just to treat her fur or get those flies off of her.
Before I am able to do anything, I need her to let me touch her. And the only way it seems to do that is to get her used to me, and to let her know that I'm not here to hurt her, I'm here to help her, and I just want to be her friend, her companion. |
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08-08-2008, 05:04 PM
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#12 | Foal
Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: California
Posts: 30
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Originally Posted by Appyt Melony, You need to do a lot of desensitizing. Do you get RFD TV? If so try to watch some of the NH clinicians. Get your hands on some videos and/or printed material. If you have someone in the area who can show you how to do it safely that's even better.
Basically you can use the end of a leadrope or a "stick", anything that will keep you out of her reach at first. Touch her all over, rub her, scratch her etc. Do approach and retreat, meaning where she will let you touch her do so, keep your hand / or stick at a spot just before the spot she objects to until she relaxes.. It may not be easy but you cannot allow her to continue to tell you that you cannot touch her. Take your time, easing forward as much as you can safely. You may need to do some round penning exercises that will help her come to you for comfort. There is a lot to learn if you want to do it right..
If you already have or can get her into a smallish work area, like a corral or round pen you can work with her and eventually get that halter off. To make the best progress you may need to ignore the halter for a while. Just have your goal being able to touch her, then work toward her head.. If she turns to bite at you block her with your elbow.. Let her run into it don't swing at her.
I know and understand your grandfathers reasonings.. He is from the "Get-er-done" school as I'm sure he used horses as part of his livelihood. My dad was kind of the same way. They had a job to do and didn't tolerate much lip.. ;)
Best to you, positive vibes and be safe.. | She has a pen she's extremely comfortable in.. whenever she's afraid of something, she retreats into it.... but when I approach her in any way, she always retreats into a corner, and I know from experience that large animals who are forced into a corner become hostile. You can't honestly be expecting me to do it that way.
I can stand next to her when she's eating, but quite often when she's not (which isn't too often, she'll keep eating until she gets every last bit of hay on the floor -- she has issues with eating, she was rarely fed in her last home so she overeats because she's afraid that tomorrow she'll no longer have food) she will walk to the other side of the stall. But she'll still be curious. She'll have her ears perked up most of the time. When I first look at her, she'll tuck her ears back but after a moment she'll prick them forward curiously (and trust me, I don't look at her eyes - at first it was hard for me but now I've managed to not look at her eyes directly, as I know that's a no-no for horses), and sometimes she does walk towards me.
This one time while we were out in her pasture, she kept sort of... getting in my way. I pulled her out to the farthest side with some alfalfa hay, to see if she'd go that far, I want her to know she can go wherever she wants (but then I saw a pile of her poop and realized she had already been that far out XD). Soon, the hay was gone and she had no more, so I walked around her to go back to the stall, I gave her a wide berth because I know how much she doesn't really like me being near her, but oddly enough she turned and stood in front of me. As if blocking my way. I tried to wave my hands at her and I clicked my tongue -- this is beginning to become a cue for her to backup for us -- and she wouldn't move. I waited a moment, trying to decide what I should do - should I go around her, which seemed like a bad idea because it sort of implies that I'm walking around her because she's higher than me on the hierarchy, which of course I'm trying to show her that I'm higher than her, or continue forward, shooing her back, which may upset her because I'd get too close to her? - I believe I ended up compromising with a bit of both, I stepped a bit more to the side but enough so she was still in my way and I continued to shoo her, eventually she got out of my way, but oddly enough she simply walked right next to me the entire walk back to the stall. I found it odd, I'm curious, why did she do this? |
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08-08-2008, 05:14 PM
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#13 | Foal
Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: California
Posts: 30
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Originally Posted by Mercury Every time you retreat after any aggressive behavior from her, your teaching her that that behavior is ok. This is how they operate in a herd. If she wants you to go somewhere else she'll bite at you. A lead horse would bite back and chase her off. You need to be a lead horse. At the moment you are in a hard situation because not only does she not respect you, but she doesn't trust you either. Do you have any training facilities at all? I would recommend a strong post and a long stick to start out with.
Wrap the rope around the post (don't tye it, just wrap it so it acts like a pulley - if she tries to pull back you will still be holding the end but she won't be able to get away since you will have more leverage) and use the stick and 'stoke' all over the her body. If she throws a fit, stop til she calms down then start all over again. Don't stop until she relaxes. Let her know what is acceptable and what isn't though. Getting scared and dancign aroudn a little is ok. Trying to bite, rear, or kick is unacceptable and you need to let her know that NOW. Give her a smack with that stick of yours. She's a yearling now. Think of this behavior in a couple years when she's full grown and a little smarter... not a pretty picture. These type oof horses are generally either sent to slaughter or euthanized because of dangerous behavior. Not to scare you, but you can't let her get away with this behavior. Get help NOW. | No. You need to realize, this was a one-time behavior, she has never done this before and she still hasn't done it again, even though I have also reached for her halter, recently. She pulls away but she never gets aggressive. I'm positive at this point that it's because, not only was she unfamiliar with my grandfather, but she was treated badly by men like him, or just men in general, and she refuses to trust him. But also, when she bit at him, he didn't move back at all, he stood his ground. When I say he "backed off" I mean it figuratively, not literally.
I refuse to hit my horse with a stick, she has never had bad behavior unless it's for a just cause. She had reason to be upset at him. She doesn't know nor trust him, and she believes he was trying to trick her, giving her hay and reaching for her halter - in her opinion it was probably a dirty trick, while she tries to mind herself and eat, he decides that he's trying to grab her, and for all she knows, hurt her, or force her down. She hasn't been here long enough to understand fully that we're not planning to do anything bad to her, and she also hasn't known my grandfather long enough to know that he was trying to help her -- if you could call it that -- all she knows is she's had a bad past with humans and they probably hurt her and put that halter on her - she probably hates it, for all we know it hurts her.
I thank you for your suggestion but I promise you I'm not trying that anytime soon. I won't hit her when she already doesn't trust me. Hitting her softly or not - You don't hit a human for feeling like it's been tricked and gets upset, softly or not. |
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08-08-2008, 06:55 PM
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#14 | Yearling
Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Southcentral Kansas
Posts: 1,168
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She has a pen she's extremely comfortable in.. whenever she's afraid of something, she retreats into it.... but when I approach her in any way, she always retreats into a corner, and I know from experience that large animals who are forced into a corner become hostile. You can't honestly be expecting me to do it that way.
| No, don't corner her with aggression. Follow her until she pays attention to YOU, then step aside or take a step backwards and turn your body slightly sideways.. Kind of like you are ignoring her.. ;) This gets her curious.. Horses will follow something to check it out and a retreating thing/person is inviting. They want to investigate.. Quote: |
I can stand next to her when she's eating, but quite often when she's not (which isn't too often,
| This is great. Try touching her while she eats. Continue to try, don't give up.. Remain calm and confident as long as she is not threatening you. If she attempts to push you back by biting at you just be ready to block her. Pay it no attention other than blocking it. If she were to attack you however you need to get big.. That will easily tell her to back off. As soon as she backs off you drop all the big and become that friend again.. Trust me, it works. Horses live in the moment.. Quote: |
she'll keep eating until she gets every last bit of hay on the floor -- she has issues with eating, she was rarely fed in her last home so she overeats because she's afraid that tomorrow she'll no longer have food) she will walk to the other side of the stall. But she'll still be curious. She'll have her ears perked up most of the time. When I first look at her, she'll tuck her ears back but after a moment she'll prick them forward curiously
| She's just voicing her worry/concern when she does that. It's kind of a don't hurt me defensive thing. Remain neutral as you have been doing. When she perks them back up you can invite her to you with your body language. Quote: |
(and trust me, I don't look at her eyes - at first it was hard for me but now I've managed to not look at her eyes directly, as I know that's a no-no for horses), and sometimes she does walk towards me.
| You can glance/look, but staring is predatory and they will take it as a signal to move away. Keep your eyes soft.. Staring is hard eyes,. Quote: |
This one time while we were out in her pasture, she kept sort of... getting in my way. I pulled her out to the farthest side with some alfalfa hay, to see if she'd go that far,
| See, your body language said follow me.. You were not herding her, she was following you.. Little did you realize you were using body language to invite her. ;) Quote: |
I want her to know she can go wherever she wants (but then I saw a pile of her poop and realized she had already been that far out XD). Soon, the hay was gone and she had no more, so I walked around her to go back to the stall, I gave her a wide berth because I know how much she doesn't really like me being near her, but oddly enough she turned and stood in front of me. As if blocking my way.
| The wide berth was good. It's like round penning in a way but backwards. lol The important part is you let her keep her comfort zone. As you move toward her notice when she feels uneasy and stop, drop eyes and shoulders, tip your body sorta to the side and take a half step back.. Scuff your feet if you want to.. Shows you are not threatening her.
LOL another very good exercise is to just go out and ignore her. She will have to come see what you are up to. Quote: |
I tried to wave my hands at her and I clicked my tongue -- this is beginning to become a cue for her to backup for us -- and she wouldn't move. I waited a moment, trying to decide what I should do - should I go around her, which seemed like a bad idea because it sort of implies that I'm walking around her because she's higher than me on the hierarchy, which of course I'm trying to show her that I'm higher than her, or continue forward, shooing her back, which may upset her because I'd get too close to her? - I believe I ended up compromising with a bit of both,
| very good instincts.. You can always do the I'm not interested in you at all and am just wandering around out here looking for something I may have dropped. lol Quote: |
I stepped a bit more to the side but enough so she was still in my way and I continued to shoo her, eventually she got out of my way, but oddly enough she simply walked right next to me the entire walk back to the stall. I found it odd, I'm curious, why did she do this?
| Did you figure it out? Because you used your body language without consciously realizing it. You didn't threaten, you didn't chase, you were inviting.. :)
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