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This is a discussion on Training Horses within the Horse Training forums, part of the Training Horses category

     
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        09-30-2008, 01:46 PM
      #21
    Showing
    I don't have the time to read or write a book about what I do with my babies but I'm sure most here have already posted most of the things I do.
    My main training thing is to ALWAYS do something different. My yearlings never see the same twice in a row, or go in the same place or do the same thing ever. Keeps their mind going, gives them ample opportunity to test their surrounding, you and test your training AND gives me and excellent opportunity to test how well I am doing my job.

    Both my babies weren't halter trained when I got them, you couldn't get near them or touch them. Now I can let my 4 year old nephew lead them around with no problems
         
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        09-30-2008, 02:11 PM
      #22
    Trained
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Horse Poor
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Dumas'_Grrrl
    It is a bond of predator and prey that should not be taken lightly.
    And I have to ask what "bond" could there possibly be between "predator and prey"? I see this concept all the time with NHers...and truthfully, I do not understand it. How can you be both "leader" and "predator" to your horse? I'm from Montana and there would be no way on God's green earth that a horse would EVER allow a predator to put a paw on them let alone view them as a leader, friend or herd mate! I understand the concept of horses being a prey animal, but that doesn't automatically mean they view humans as predators! It means they are cautious by nature of anything unfamiliar to them. Heck, a horse will run from a cow, pig or a sheep if he's not familiar with them and they aren't predators but prey animals as well. And I've seen horses turn and attack a dog when they could easily out run it. IMHO, horses view everything as a threat until they learn otherwise - but once they learn otherwise, they no longer view *whatever* as a predatory threat. I just don't think horses stand around scared to death that the next human they see is going to eat them! Why would they? We do not act like predators toward them. No horse has ever seen a human pounce on a horse and rip it to shreds. So I have to ask, why do you think a horse views humans as predators?
    Because humans ARE predators. People eat horses.
    What we do is take a horse against it's natural instincts to trust a human. One of the many reasons imprinting is important on a new born foal. Once a horse trusts a human a bond is formed between predator and prey. A bond that we are responsible to treat with care. That bond IMO is not to be taken lightly.

    Dumas has been abused in his past somewhere. I guarantee that he will NOT trust you should you come out and want to hop on him or even pet him. He does not view every human as a friend. You are a predator (possible source of harm or death) until you have proved otherwise to him...basically desensitizing him to your presence and mannerisms, even temperament.

    I'm not a NH'er. I do however believe in the laws of nature and that we are to be good stewards of relationships between all animals. I think that a dog is only as good as its owner and the same goes with horses. It takes understanding of the creature in the wild to understand it once domesticated.

    There was a video on You tube not too long ago where a horse was in a circus with a tiger or lion riding on it's back. The horse has been desensitized to the presence of the tiger. That horse had obviously not been attacked by that tiger. Thus...the tiger was accepted by the horse. But I still wouldn't cross tigers off of a list of animals that would eat a horse. Tigers are predators.

    I hope I'm making sense of this for you. Sometimes it's hard to express opinions on the net...lol..this would be so much easier over the phone!!!
         
        09-30-2008, 02:29 PM
      #23
    Green Broke
    Just saw this thread - - I'm of the mindset that a training session should always have a goal...weather it's a nice, collected trot or a full out rack-on.

    It irks me sometimes to see "trainers" out there seemingly pushing the horse until there's an issue...and not stopping when they really should.

    With Boo - he was nuts (he took the whole 7 piece set when they were handing out baggage). He would have knocked you down and stepped all over you as soon as look at you. He was definitely NOT one of those that tolerated a lot of variation or fast steps. He did, however, respond beautifully to the "goal" method. I would set simple goals...like stand still for 30 seconds at a time... or canter for 5 strides without trying to kill me. Once he got it and was comfortable, we would move on. Now he's as quiet and versitile as they come... that's him to the left :)

    To each his own...so long as the horse is happy and can learn and benefit from what you are training...train on!
         
        09-30-2008, 11:41 PM
      #24
    Foal
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Dumas'_Grrrl
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Horse Poor
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Dumas'_Grrrl
    It is a bond of predator and prey that should not be taken lightly.
    And I have to ask what "bond" could there possibly be between "predator and prey"? I see this concept all the time with NHers...and truthfully, I do not understand it. How can you be both "leader" and "predator" to your horse? I'm from Montana and there would be no way on God's green earth that a horse would EVER allow a predator to put a paw on them let alone view them as a leader, friend or herd mate! I understand the concept of horses being a prey animal, but that doesn't automatically mean they view humans as predators! It means they are cautious by nature of anything unfamiliar to them. Heck, a horse will run from a cow, pig or a sheep if he's not familiar with them and they aren't predators but prey animals as well. And I've seen horses turn and attack a dog when they could easily out run it. IMHO, horses view everything as a threat until they learn otherwise - but once they learn otherwise, they no longer view *whatever* as a predatory threat. I just don't think horses stand around scared to death that the next human they see is going to eat them! Why would they? We do not act like predators toward them. No horse has ever seen a human pounce on a horse and rip it to shreds. So I have to ask, why do you think a horse views humans as predators?
    Because humans ARE predators. People eat horses.
    What we do is take a horse against it's natural instincts to trust a human. One of the many reasons imprinting is important on a new born foal. Once a horse trusts a human a bond is formed between predator and prey. A bond that we are responsible to treat with care. That bond IMO is not to be taken lightly.

    Dumas has been abused in his past somewhere. I guarantee that he will NOT trust you should you come out and want to hop on him or even pet him. He does not view every human as a friend. You are a predator (possible source of harm or death) until you have proved otherwise to him...basically desensitizing him to your presence and mannerisms, even temperament.

    I'm not a NH'er. I do however believe in the laws of nature and that we are to be good stewards of relationships between all animals. I think that a dog is only as good as its owner and the same goes with horses. It takes understanding of the creature in the wild to understand it once domesticated.

    There was a video on You tube not too long ago where a horse was in a circus with a tiger or lion riding on it's back. The horse has been desensitized to the presence of the tiger. That horse had obviously not been attacked by that tiger. Thus...the tiger was accepted by the horse. But I still wouldn't cross tigers off of a list of animals that would eat a horse. Tigers are predators.

    I hope I'm making sense of this for you. Sometimes it's hard to express opinions on the net...lol..this would be so much easier over the phone!!!
    i just wanna say that that lion they put on that ponies back was a cruel and disgusting thing to do
         
        10-01-2008, 02:26 AM
      #25
    Yearling
    IN MY OPINION

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Dumas'_Grrrl
    Because humans ARE predators. People eat horses.
    But a horse doesn't know that! How could he?

    Quote:
    What we do is take a horse against it's natural instincts to trust a human. One of the many reasons imprinting is important on a new born foal. Once a horse trusts a human a bond is formed between predator and prey. A bond that we are responsible to treat with care. That bond IMO is not to be taken lightly.
    Instinct aside - you can't have trust without familiarity. As a horse's familiarity with humans grows, so does its desire to trust them - or to avoid them - depending. Personally, I'm not a fan of imprinting...too many folks overdo it to the point the foal becomes dull. What is more important to me is that the dam and the foal bond. I agree that the bond between a horse and human isn't to be taken lightly, but that bond is between a human and a horse, not prey and predator. A horse is so much more complex than being just a prey animal.

    Quote:
    Dumas has been abused in his past somewhere. I guarantee that he will NOT trust you should you come out and want to hop on him or even pet him. He does not view every human as a friend. You are a predator (possible source of harm or death) until you have proved otherwise to him...basically desensitizing him to your presence and mannerisms, even temperament.
    I won't go into what I think because it would be a book, literally! But I will say that horses recognize leadership...they look for it. Horses don't like being fearful...no animal does, including you.

    Quote:
    I'm not a NH'er. I do however believe in the laws of nature and that we are to be good stewards of relationships between all animals. I think that a dog is only as good as its owner and the same goes with horses. It takes understanding of the creature in the wild to understand it once domesticated.
    I'm not sure I know what "laws of nature" you are referring to. Survival of the fittest, kill or be killed or something else. I wouldn't discount the impact that domestication has had on the horse or the dog, though. Centuries of selective breeding has made the horse what he is today, and that is as far removed from his wild ancestors as the dog is from the wolf.

    Quote:
    There was a video on You tube not too long ago where a horse was in a circus with a tiger or lion riding on it's back. The horse has been desensitized to the presence of the tiger. That horse had obviously not been attacked by that tiger. Thus...the tiger was accepted by the horse. But I still wouldn't cross tigers off of a list of animals that would eat a horse. Tigers are predators.
    There is no way to know how many horses didn't make the cut for the act, or how the horse was "desensitized". You're talking circus here...not normal.

    Quote:
    I hope I'm making sense of this for you. Sometimes it's hard to express opinions on the net...lol..this would be so much easier over the phone!!!
    I appreciate your taking the time to explain why you feel the way you do. Thank you.
         
        10-01-2008, 09:20 AM
      #26
    Green Broke
    Horse Poor, I appreciate your questions to learn more, but let's remember to keep this thread "nice". There are LOTS of different ways to train horses. As long as it works for the person using it, and it's not truly abusive, then it's a valid training method, even if you (or I, lol) don't "get it."
         
        10-01-2008, 09:32 AM
      #27
    Green Broke
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by JustDressageIt
    Dunno if it's been mentioned, but my big point is:

    CROSSTRAINING.

    Please please don't bore your horses by doing one thing 100% of the time. Just like you, horses need a bit of variety in their training schedule.
    Take some time off from dressage and go for a hack, or have a jumping lesson.
    If you're jumping, take some dressage lessons.
    If you're doing western pleasure, maybe try some speed stuff.
    My point is that repitition, as good as it is in some cases, isn't the answer to everything. Horses get bored too!
    If you keep things mixed up a little, your horse will benefit both physically and mentally. It's amazing what a little crosstraining can do!
    I couldn't agree more. Same to go with Pleasure horses. DOn't always drill drill drill drill. I did that with my 5yr old and I have caused him to snap on me a few times, and I know its myfault because all I ever do is drill and it drives him crazy. I can't take him on trails anymore because of it. Do something new with them, trail rides, I find do horses alot alot of good. I don't know about WP and working speed events I tried that and haha. I found my pleasure horse likes to race other horses ;] Which turned out to be a very bad thing in the show ring. But like she is saying mix it up. It will do your horse a world of good.
         
        10-01-2008, 10:35 AM
      #28
    Trained
    Horse poor, I was simply offering up what I have learned and how I feel about my horses. If you didn't understand part of my post I'm happy to explain further. However, If you are looking to dissect every sentence that I write. Stop. I did not suggest that anyone follow what I do, I clearly stated that I am not a trainer. I have had to learn what does and does not work for the 2 horses in my backyard. Everything I wrote was MY opinion that I am entitled to.

    If you want to help me I'd gladly sit down and talk about my horses over a cup of coffee and I'm sure I'd learn a few things from you.

    Please, lets not bicker over opinions. This thread has the potential to be very educational. Let's not spoil it by disrespecting one another.
         
        10-01-2008, 10:41 AM
      #29
    Super Moderator
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Horse Poor
    IN MY OPINION

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Dumas'_Grrrl
    Because humans ARE predators. People eat horses.
    But a horse doesn't know that! How could he?

    Quote:
    What we do is take a horse against it's natural instincts to trust a human. One of the many reasons imprinting is important on a new born foal. Once a horse trusts a human a bond is formed between predator and prey. A bond that we are responsible to treat with care. That bond IMO is not to be taken lightly.
    Instinct aside - you can't have trust without familiarity. As a horse's familiarity with humans grows, so does its desire to trust them - or to avoid them - depending. Personally, I'm not a fan of imprinting...too many folks overdo it to the point the foal becomes dull. What is more important to me is that the dam and the foal bond. I agree that the bond between a horse and human isn't to be taken lightly, but that bond is between a human and a horse, not prey and predator. A horse is so much more complex than being just a prey animal.

    Quote:
    Dumas has been abused in his past somewhere. I guarantee that he will NOT trust you should you come out and want to hop on him or even pet him. He does not view every human as a friend. You are a predator (possible source of harm or death) until you have proved otherwise to him...basically desensitizing him to your presence and mannerisms, even temperament.
    I won't go into what I think because it would be a book, literally! But I will say that horses recognize leadership...they look for it. Horses don't like being fearful...no animal does, including you.

    Quote:
    I'm not a NH'er. I do however believe in the laws of nature and that we are to be good stewards of relationships between all animals. I think that a dog is only as good as its owner and the same goes with horses. It takes understanding of the creature in the wild to understand it once domesticated.
    I'm not sure I know what "laws of nature" you are referring to. Survival of the fittest, kill or be killed or something else. I wouldn't discount the impact that domestication has had on the horse or the dog, though. Centuries of selective breeding has made the horse what he is today, and that is as far removed from his wild ancestors as the dog is from the wolf.

    Quote:
    There was a video on You tube not too long ago where a horse was in a circus with a tiger or lion riding on it's back. The horse has been desensitized to the presence of the tiger. That horse had obviously not been attacked by that tiger. Thus...the tiger was accepted by the horse. But I still wouldn't cross tigers off of a list of animals that would eat a horse. Tigers are predators.
    There is no way to know how many horses didn't make the cut for the act, or how the horse was "desensitized". You're talking circus here...not normal.

    Quote:
    I hope I'm making sense of this for you. Sometimes it's hard to express opinions on the net...lol..this would be so much easier over the phone!!!
    I appreciate your taking the time to explain why you feel the way you do. Thank you.
    I have to admit I havent read this entire thread so my response might be a little out there but I saw where it was said that Dumas had been at one point in his life abused in some way... Horses don't froget that. They learn to deal with it, they learn to trust specific people. I saw the part about them looking for leadership, so do people. But there is a trust factor in that. I know, I have a 29 year old walking horse that had been abused over 20 years ago. He trusts me. He respects all people, he listens to all people, he trusts very few and it is VERY obvious who he trusts. He was beaten into submission and good behavior, he never forgot his manners, but trust me when I say, he TRUSTS a select few. I have a barn full of abused or neglected animals, in all of them they have never forgotten the abuse and they do trust certain people more than others. They behave because theyve been trained to... they trust because they choose too... does that make sence? I also have a baby that was never abused that is trusting to all people, respectful as well... I'm probably way off topic with this response....
         

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