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Treat training horses.What are peoples opinions / thoughts.

7K views 96 replies 24 participants last post by  MHFoundation Quarters 
#1 ·
I have 2 geldings who are pleasure horses only.The good ole back yard pets.I have never been involved in shows.I live in a non horsey area.All I have learned is through trial and error [mostly error].At first , I used the more "cowboyish" methods of training.A year or so ago, I became stuck and didnt seem to be progressing.So I went online and found a few trainers who used treats has motivators for training.I decided to give it a try.I have to say,that my boys and myself have progressed in leaps and bounds.To the point that I can practically ride tackless.I know this is frowned on by many traditional trainers.However,I would like to point out that this is the method of training for the Lipizzaner Stallions and their "Haute ecole" .I have followed Klaus Hempfling and Eva Roemaat ,both use treats and have done wonders with horses.Opinions anyone?
 
#4 ·
I think treats can be great if administered at the correct time. But they can also be a great distraction for a horse. It depends what I'm training if I give a little treat or not.
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#7 ·
Basic stuff.Backing,moving right and left with leg pressure.I have done a lot of ad liberty work.Moving the hiney in both directions .Very basic stuff walking with me ad lberty as in keeping up with my footsteps no matter how fast or slow.Mirroring my movements.
 
#8 ·
I never really was one for training with treats, but once I started working with mustangs it became the best way of inviting them into my space and reassuring them that all is well.

A lot of people don't feed horses too many treats because it makes them too nosey, or pushy... but for a horse who thinks it might be better to stay a good ten feet away from you at all times, treats are a useful tool.
 
#9 ·
I, too, would like to know what could not be accomplished without the treat and just how they were used.

I have never had a problem getting ANY horse to back up or move over. I have never had to get 'rough' on them and I never had to use treats. So I wonder if it is just being used to replace 'effective training' by someone that does not know how to effectively use 'pressure and release'.

If you are consistent, pressure can be the pointing or mere touch of a finger or even a soft 'smooch' and 'release' is the only reward a horse needs.

Except, as mentioned, getting a horse more 'people - friendly', I have not found much that treats work better for than consistent release of pressure. Usually, the timing is too late for the horse to even make the correct connection between the act and the reward when I have watched others use treats.

The other exception may be 'tricks' which have not really interested me much. But, I have also watched trick trainers try to get horses switched to a reward other than a treat as even they start getting pushy and start demanding treats before they go to another trick or action. The treat becomes their focus.

I would like to know more about why 'traditional pressure and release' did not work and just how treats worked.
 
#10 ·
Traditional pressure and release did work.I found my horses to be more engaged and willing with treat training..That is my own personal experience.I would also like to point out [again] that treat training has been used by the Spanish riding school for over 440 yrs.So with their horses trained in haute ecole,they must be doing something right.I am not saying anything against traditional training methods.But 440 yrs is pretty traditional as well.
 
#12 ·
For the record, before this turns argumentative, I am not suggesting that treat training is better.It is just an alternative .I have nothing against the more traditional "cowboyish" training and still use it in combination with other typese of training..one of which is treat reward.
 
#13 ·
I don't like treat training. Never have, never will. I don't want my horses to rely on treats for a reward. a reassuring pat on the neck should be reward enough. I don't like them reaching for a treat everytime they do something good. But that's MO, I don't trick train, I always use just a pat on the neck or a kind word. and its always worked for me.
 
#14 ·
I am not trying to be argumentative. I am genuinely trying to ask what it adds that release of pressure and a reassuring pat does not give one.

I can see the Haute Ecole part as that is much like 'trick training' in teaching horses to do very unnatural things. The aires above the ground could just as readily called tricks above the ground. But regular things like moving over or back, I would like to see what improves with treats. I am just curious.
 
#21 ·
Well I am fairly certain that the Spanish Riding school can get their horses to do the regular stuff.In fact I believe thats where Haute ecole starts.I can get my horses to do the things that I want without treats by using pressure and release and so forth.What I do find is that I have a more eager willing horse because it has something to look forward to.Haute ecole is not just trick training .At All. Nothing that humans do with horses is "natural" with or without treats.There is a much bigger resistance to this type of training in Northl America, for some reason.
 
#15 ·
I think all training falls on the same realm of science. Treats or a pat are all positive reward given for positive behavior. Its all classical conditioning in which the animal (including humans) learns that a given behavior results in something pleasant often a pressure release and thus seeks to repeat that behavior.

I think there are certain horses that food rewards work really well for and there are other horses where its not a great idea. That said like any other technique it has advantages and disadvantages. I think its silly for me to say I will never use that technique or this technique when I may find a horse in 3 years that does best under that training technique. Its all about finding what works for you and your horse. Getting a good, safe horse is the end goal and that can be achieved in many different ways.
 
#16 ·
Cherie I found treats made my horse back up quicker and with less resistance. I tried conventional pressure on the bit, I tried pressure on the chest and my horse would back. I pulled out a treat and he started offering multiple steps back with just a single flick of my finger. It made a huge change in his attitude. It was like this horse suddenly got what I was asking for and was doing it with an attitude that was less resistant. Before using a treat he would back with his nose up in the air, with a treat he had his head nice and low. I have another horse, who was unable to focus on what I asked he was/is to busy looking for a treat. So for one horse it worked really well and the other it did not so I am using more "conventional' methods with the other horse.
 
#22 ·
Exactly! I always found that using traditional methods, my horses listened but I always felt they listened a little begrudgingly .This completely changed when I turned to treats as a positive reward.It like they saw me coming to work with them and looked forward to it.
 
#17 ·
Treats are easier.
What I mean is, sometimes, especially when starting out, a person doesn't actually know what "release" is; and even if he/she does, the timing is off. The horse gets a mighty slap on the neck; or you yell, "Whoohoo! You did it!" while still keeping the reins taut.

When you give a treat, you usally "let go" right away, all pressure is off as you scrounge for that cookie. It soon happens (in my own case) that the release is BEFORE the treat: "Good girl" as I dig in my pocket: that's the release. The cookie part is now just a distraction, but we like it.:)

I hardly use treats now while schooling. "Good girl" is quite enough. But I do use them to teach "tricks" which I'll later fit into regular schooling. Backing was once a trick for us.
 
#18 ·
Don't use, won't use. Like Cherie, I have never had trouble getting horse to do things without them.

And seen way too many horses spoiled by well meaning owners to think it is good idea.

Same thing as if my trainer had to feed me breakfast before I showed up each morning. When time to do something, it needs to be done and not dependent on treats.
 
#19 ·
I like using treats to train but I also use a sound to mark the behavior. Once I make the sound, we stop what we are doing immediately too, which is also a reward. I use it now when I am riding in the arena teaching a new command. I find it helps my horse know when she did what I was asking for at the moment she does it. I fade the treat out fairly quickly. Most of my horses are more focused and eager to figure out what I'm asking when I use treats. Our latest command has been w/t/c from a standstill.

I will be the first to admit treats may be so effective for me because I am an inexperienced trainer. It did take a lot of practice though, to make the noise at the moment of the behavior. It's helped me become better at clearly defining the behavior I want, and noticing each tiny behavior that is close to or moving toward the goal behavior. For example, leaning back when I want steps back. It also helps me string behaviors together. Finally, desensitizing is also easier for me with treats.

I don't use them all the time, but they are handy for about 30% of the time for me.
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#20 ·
Same here, not a treat trainer, whether it be dogs or horses.
I feel the mind set with the animal is trying to get the treat rather than really thinking about the task at hand and understanding it. I have really noticed it with treat trained dogs, they seem really focused but it is not on the handler- it is on the treat itself.
Training should be getting in their head and I do not feel I could get that by treat training.
If people want to feed treats fine- to their animals, I just ask people not to hand feed mine.
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#23 ·
I agree with what was said about conditioning. For some animals (eg. dogs, horses) that are particularly food-motivated, a treat can be a more powerful incentive than pressure-release or patting/verbal rewards. For example, the last horse I leased was extremely receptive to personal affection (kind words, a pat on the neck or a scratch). My current horse responds to those rewards, but he is highly food-motivated and will respond very well if there is a treat involved! The key is not to always treat-- if we are learning something new, I will offer a treat, but if he has consistently responded (and been treated) to something in the past, I will expect him to do it as I ask with no food reward.

I recommend using a clicker if you are looking to treat-train. As was mentioned, many times the issue is rewarding them fast enough to create an association between a behavior and a reward. A clicker allows instant response to a positive action, and the treat follows the clicker sound.

Just my thoughts. :)
 
#24 ·
Just taking the 'backing thing' --

I find that getting a light 'quick' backup is all about preparation and real training. Once you get a horse to round its back, bring its belly up and get the weight off of its forehand (lift its shoulders), it is simply a matter of 'pushing' or 'driving' a horse back. You only 'close the front door'. You DON'T try to pull the horse back. People that get resistance are trying to pull horses back and they get resistance and feet that barely drag back. If you want t a horse to pick up his feet and step back lightly and quickly, you have to do the preparation. This comes back to good training and good preparation and not having a horse reaching for a treat.

Backing is completely related to stopping. It is exactly the same thing. The horse needs a rounded back (as opposed to a hollow back), a belly that is lifted up, and shoulder that are lifted up. When you do this, a horse will stop on its back-end and if it has sliders on or good ground, the back feet will slide and the front feet will travel because he is trying to stop and he has his weight off of his front end. More bit or more pull just gets a stiff, resistant stop with a horse jamming its front feet into the ground. It is a matter of teaching and preparation.

If you got a treat to get a good back-up (and I would have to see that), how is it going to relate to or help a stop? You cannot give a treat during or quickly enough after a stop for a connection to be made.

I am open minded, but I want to see something more and better than you can get with 'good training'. So far, I just think if people think they are getting better results with treats, they just do not have the skill to teach the maneuver with proper preparation. So in that way, it is just another means to an end on very basic things. Personally, I think they should invest in time with a good trainer that can teach them to properly prepare a horse for the next more difficult task or maneuver.

Like I said, I have an open mind and would like to see before, during and after videos to see what treat are doing that training with pressure and release will not do.
 
#25 ·
Cherie, I have pointed out several trainers whom you can view on youtude that treat train.I guess my answer t your question would be with another question.What do pressure and release do that treat training cannot.It is just 2 different methods of training using reward.Treat being one form of positive reinforcement and release also being a different form of positive reinforcement. I only said it was an alternative form of training.
 
#26 · (Edited)
I understand a number of different views on treats. I am an experienced enough horse person to get stuff done. I don't see myself as having horses that are crazy but I am not going to say I am a professional. I am a bit offended by the insinuation that using treats makes you less of a horse person; however, I understand that with it being a "new" idea in equine training its going to draw raised eyebrows.

For me, the back up worked because I used a cue word (back up) and that vocal command translated to undersaddle. I could then pair the vocal command with the saddle cues. This also worked for whoa. I only did this because I had a horse that when asked to stop and trained by a "conventional trainer" the horse would rear. Thats a great surprise to have, send a horse for 90 days of training and get on him to find he rears when asked to stop and "had to be lunged for 15 minutes before being ridden so he does not bolt with you".

For what its worth, some of the top schools for children with autism use food rewards and clicker training. Which makes it worth investigating in my opinion. I think if you can use reward based training to reach children that are considered unreachable by conventional educational methods and turn them into productive members of society than its worth learning about. Working with animals is not as different from working with nonverbal children as we would like to think (although nonverbal children as a general rule have more complex behavior patterns and higher measurable IQ). The key is finding a something that those kids care about and can motivate them, sometimes thats candy.
 
#33 ·
I am offended as well, that someone would insinuate a certain type of training, that they have never tried, somehow makes one less of a horses person.I was warned by several online horse people to not start a thread on this forum due to the bad attitude of some people.Cherie,you are one of the moderators?I dont expect everyone to agree with treat training but to make a blanket statement that treat trainers are not as good ,as you did is wrong."So far, I just think if people think they are getting better results with treats, they just do not have the skill to teach the maneuver with proper preparation"
This is simply untrue.I challenge you to do some research anout using treats as reward/release .Pressure and release can fail as well if done incorrectly.
 
#27 ·
I think treats are great. Most horses are ruled by ther stomachs and it's good to reward them when they have done something good. My horse who had been ill treated use to be scared of anything going near his ears but with some rewards he lets me play with his ears and I can put the bridle on easily without him throwing his head around.
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#29 · (Edited)
I test rode a Mustang whose trainer was very, very into treat training.

OMG it was awful! Very nice horse but unless you carried around a 50lb sack of treats you didn't get a ride. His owner dispensed treats faster than a gumball machine because he needed them for EVERYTHING. Only horse I have ever seen that jumped into the trailer and promptly stuck his head up to the slats for his treats and when they didn't immediately arrive (she was momentarily distracted) promptly jumped back out and had to be given another to get him to go in and then multiples when in.

Literally, any pause whatsoever while riding, the head would whip around for more treats. Pick out *a* hoof, treat. Put on a saddle pad, treat. Bridle got a whole handful!

Needless to say, I didn't buy him....


I do allow my kids to dispense treats by the handful at the barn (they know who to hand-feed and who needs their in a feed pan). I want all the horses to ADORE my children, just in-case. Since they only hand them out to stalled horses, it works great. If they drop a lead rope or an unhaltered horse gets past them out a gate, they run for their stalls and stand there waiting for their treats!
 
#30 ·
Treats are nothing new. 50 years ago it was just called 'coaxing' with food.

A 'traditional' trainer does not make a horse rear and does not train a horse to need to be longed before riding -- a BAD trainer does. It has nothing to do with traditional vs. whatever. It only takes a bad trainer.

I see timing as the biggest problem with treats. The release of pressure is instant. The treat comes after the pressure has been released. How do you know if the horse responded because of the release of pressure or the treat that followed.

When they are used to 'coax' which I guess it what I do when a give a new horse a bite of something for walking up and meeting me at the gate, it is not teaching by 'pressure and reward' as apposed to 'pressure and release'. New horses and wild, fearful horses will definitely get more friendly with a treat or two but that, again, is coaxing.
 
#32 ·
What you are describing and what proper treat training actually is is completly innacurate.Someone else pointed out that to assume people who use treats as tools for horse training is are bad is certainly not being open minded as you claimed t be.This type of training is backed up by not 50 years but 430 yrs of tradition with a top dressage school.But I guess that can be disregarded.You are certainly entitled to an opinion but to may a blanket statement ,when you have not even tried or researched is rude.Some people in this forum have said they don't like it.There are some forms of training that I don't like as well but I certainly wouldn't come here and claim that it was bad training.
 
#34 · (Edited)
Newfie. You asked for opinions and thoughts on trick training. If you were going to get offended so easily then you shouldn't have posted this. Because Cherie is simply stating her opinion. And I 100% agree with her. Call it what you want. Treat training is simply coaxing or bribery. Something I used to do with my pony as a young kid. It is nothing new and really not that "great" of a training method. I've tried it. And found with all the horses I've have trained over the years, it worked no better than any other training method, but caused problems sometimes, for example, mouthy ness and nippinng. I do not want my horses to rely on something other than the me for a reward. They aren't paying attention, nor fully understanding the concept of what you are trying to get them to do. They are just seeing what they can do to get that treat. I don't agree with it trick training. I think it is simply and "easier" way of training, but maybe not the best way. And yes, this is MO. Get offended if you want, but I've be professionally training for quite a few years now. I do have a pretty good understanding on horse training. And I will never use or even try trick training again. I don't care the horse, there ARE different ways...
 
#39 ·
I am not offended because a person on a forum disagreed with me.What takes me aback is the belief that one way is the only way.What you do for your horse is the only way to do it right.I have no problem with someone saying that they tried a particular method of training but didnt like it or preferred another type.If your horse became nippy or mouthy than I would suggest that perhaps you were not doing it correctly.The same would go for me ,if my horses became disobedient when I was using pressure and release,whose fault wuld it be.Mine .Simply because I did it wrong.
 
#36 ·
Because I am isolated from any sort of ranches or "professional" riding schools and so forth, I have had to d a lot f research on different types of hrse training/teaching.From all disciplines,Western, English ,pleasure and whatever.Many people speak of "natural horsemanship" and teaching a horse in the same way as another "lead" horse would.An online trainer/friend said something to me that really made sense.It was during my "being the dominant horse" phase. She said " Do you think that horse dont know that you are not a horse?".It was after that,I decided to do some more research into different types of training.Just because one type didnt work for me as well as another type,does nt mean the other type was bad or wrong.I am a big believer in doing what works best for you and your horse.
 
#37 ·
Because I am isolated from any sort of ranches or "professional" riding schools and so forth, I have had to d a lot f research on different types of hrse training/teaching.From all disciplines,Western, English ,pleasure and whatever.Many people speak of "natural horsemanship" and teaching a horse in the same way as another "lead" horse would.An online trainer/friend said something to me that really made sense.It was during my "being the dominant horse" phase. She said " Do you think that horse dont know that you are not a horse?".It was after that,I decided to do some more research into different types of training.Just because one type didnt work for me as well as another type,does nt mean the other type was bad or wrong.I am a big believer in doing what works best for you and your horse.
 
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