Trust and Respect - Page 3 - The Horse Forum
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post #21 of 35 Old 01-21-2013, 09:40 PM Thread Starter
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Thanks I will read that! But I just read the swinging part of it, and I have actually done that before. I put my hands near her tail, and whithers and slowly rocked her back and forth, and she was relaxed the whole time.

The only thing right now, that she will kick is when I put the lead around where the cinch is and tighten it, she will buck, and after 2 or 3 tries, she will stand. I learned this from CA's dvd saddle breaking. (finally got one dvd!!)
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post #22 of 35 Old 01-21-2013, 10:01 PM
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You keep saying you want your horse to "trust" you, like you do her. That's a lot to ask of a horse. I almost never trust a horse the way I would a human. I don't think, "Well, becuase I trust her, she'll trust me" . It's foolish to put too much trust in a horse because horse's are animals, and animals are governed by their instincts first. So, you can never 100% trust a horse. Horses' #1 important thing is self -preservation. If you stand between them and what they think they must do (like run away) to preserve their own life, they will not trust you just becuase you trusted them. you will basically cease to exist in their panicked mind.

What am I getting at? to not look at like that , some kind of reciprocal arrangement where since you trust them they are bound to trust you back.

What you have to do , in all handling of horses, is become really, really IMPORTANT to a horse. More important than that other horse when you were leading your mare and she was acting out at the other horse. More important than whatever scary things are out there that draw your horse's concern for her self preservation.

Sometimes you are really important to your horse, such as you have seen , when you come to the gate. She expects a treat, or a good scratching , or is just curious for something new. When you lead her, and she is more focussed on the other horse, then by golly, you better get real important to her! she'll change her focus real quick to the thing that is more important.
Sometimes that means a good yank on the leadline, sometimes that means stopping her and getting her focusses on you backing her up , sometimes it means lunging her in a circle, sometimes it means nothing mores than scuffling the ground with your boot such that she looks at you with both eyes .

But, you have to be important. Think about how you can be more important than the things that draw her away from you. YOu need to keep her mind , eyes, ears on YOU , because you are important. That's respect.
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post #23 of 35 Old 01-21-2013, 10:54 PM
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Tinyliny hit it on the head. I also have found, that a horses WILL NOT trust you until it respects you as it's leader. Respect has to come first. I kind of get the feeling (and I could be wrong) that you are hesitant about REALLY getting after your mare. Have you ever had a "come to Jesus" meeting with her over unacceptable behavior? Sometimes you have to. Trust will come after respect is established. Good for you to ask for help. Young horses are a lot of work and are less consistent then older, more seasoned horses. You have to be the boss, whether your working with her or the other horses. If she tries to kick them, RUN HER OFF!!! Don't let her get away with that crap. Sounds like she was being a spoiled little brat and needed to be put in her place. JMHO.
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post #24 of 35 Old 01-21-2013, 11:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Breezy2011 View Post
Thanks I will read that! But I just read the swinging part of it, and I have actually done that before. I put my hands near her tail, and whithers and slowly rocked her back and forth, and she was relaxed the whole time.
More important than the specific exercises in the article is the way you ask a horse for a response, and getting a consistent response. A few excerpts:

Do pay attention to details; the horses do. In fact, horses seem to be more attentive and careful about listening to our moves than we are about delivering them. We're so busy being verbal creatures that we may overlook valued opportunities to improve our communication in the horse's language of choice: body language.

(1) Make sure to get a response for every request.
(2) Look for and listen to the smallest responses.

It sounds like you've done plenty of exercises with your mare, but something about the way you're interacting with her isn't quite working. Hopefully the trainer can help you sort that out, as we can't see what you you're doing and how the horse is responding.
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post #25 of 35 Old 01-21-2013, 11:12 PM
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Trust and respect don't come overnight. They come the moment that you put your hands on a new horse, and begin working with it. Just like it would with a herd situation.

Horses are not geared to "Oh, let's see if I can TRUST this horse for a couple of weeks before I decide to follow it to water" nor do they think, "WELL, I am NOT going to back off of this food, because I don't RESPECT this horse yet."

Thinking like that is foolish.

Respect comes from handling a horse the first time, showing that horse that you are going to run the show, and the trust comes when you show by your actions that you are sensible. And doesn't take long either, nor should it.

If respect and trust had to come before any of us could work at a new barn, or with a new horse? We'd be in serious trouble as many barns get new horses every week or so, and these are stall horses, some with training on them, some without.

You get respect by being the leader, acting like you have good sense, and not letting a horse be spoiled. And a spoiled horse is not lacking in anything but discipline from a human. And not talking about swinging a 2x4 either, but by using your attitude to show you are the boss.
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post #26 of 35 Old 01-21-2013, 11:37 PM Thread Starter
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Thank you! I wish someone on here was close enough to come and watch! You are all very respectful in the way you give me advice!

When I got Breeze, she was my first horse. I got her because I wanted a project to train and break. I do admit, Breeze was spoiled at first. After the first few weeks, I stopped taking it easy on her, and began diciplining her. Believe me when she was bad, I would give her that 'come to jesus' feeling.

Also, it took about a week to get her halter broke and leading, as she came to me as an untouchable, wild, unweaned, yearling. The first day after I got her, I spent 7 hours trying to get close enough to touch her, and 2 attempts of trying to get a rope halter on her. Once that halter was on, she would let me very slowly walk up to her, but only me, and no one else, and that night I took it off, and the next day, she would not let me put it back on, so I bought a nylon halter, and put it on, and kept it on.
By the third day, she was letting me walk up to her slowly, groom her mane, and back, and tail. She let me pick up her feet for the first time, and if I was holding her halter, she would let others walk up to her.
The next few days, she was letting me lead her, we started tying her, grooming her, lifting and cleaning feet, and even going out of the pen she was in, to a larger pen, then back in her pen. By the end of the week she was coming to the gate when she saw me. We just seemed to go from there. About the 2nd week, she was in next to other horses, but not in with them, They broke her out 2 times, each time I would call, she would come, and I would put her back. The other horses gave her injuries also, like a wound to the face, bite marks, and she also has 2 gashes from barbed wire. Now Breeze is the dominant one over a gelding, but still sumissive to a mare.

I think a lot of her not listening to me the way I would like her to has a lot of her not being weaned until I brought her home, she was never seperated from her mother, and once I started going out there every day, she seemed to think of me the way she thought of her mother.
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post #27 of 35 Old 01-21-2013, 11:44 PM
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Warning: Novel

You asked for specific exercises so here is what I did with my spoiled mare to gain respect. After respect is when you get trust:

You are controller of the food. Be the only one to feed (makes you important to her) and DO NOT let her eat until you put the food where it goes and gives her permission. Use a lunge whip or lead rope (my tool of choice) and use it to keep her back off the food until you say. I swing the lead rope in a helicopter motion but sideways out in front of me or whatever I don't want the horse near.

Second thing to do is just spend time with her. Keep your rules consistent every time you handle her so she always knows what to expect.

DO NOT let her in your space at all right now. When she respects you then this can be reconsidered with permission your permission only never let her do it on her own. What appears cuddly and cute can go dangerous in a heartbeat.

Third is go on walks anywhere and everywhere you can, it keeps her stimulated but really she is learning lead manners. Use natural objects to walk over, around, through, etc... If she spooks don't react and keep going, if she really freaks circle her, calm her down, and continue like it never happened. Don't expect her to spook or she will. If you are anticipating it so will she.

When teaching to stop with you on the lead, just randomly pick a spot and stop. Eventually she'll figure it out. If she steps past you back her up a few steps to where she should have stopped, stand there a minute and continue on. Make it random. Use the next tip below to teach her to pay attention to you.

For crowding on the lead line occasionally swing the lead rope behind you or flap your elbows, make it random, and act casual, pretend nothing is going on. She'll figure out she doesn't want to get too close and will start paying attention you. Both important and should be worked on each and every time you handle her.

Teach her to yield her hindquarters as this is beneficial in numerous ways. This and backing up is great at getting them to focus on you. I do one of the two to refocus my mare when I lose her attention.

ALWAYS end on a good note, don't push her, if she's doing good then end the session and come back a few hours later. Sometimes short but frequent lessons work better especially with youngsters.

CONSISTENCY is KEY is everything you do!

Avoid treats for now. When you earn her respect you can reconsider but right now I wouldn't.

Don't lunge her until you can get your trainer out to help. If done wrong it only makes things worse. Your trainer can have you doing it right in no time. Lunging is easy to mess up. One step in the wrong direction is all it takes and that one step can be an inch over or something you wouldn't notice yourself. A second set of eyes is important when lunging.

Keep all emotion out of your training sessions. Act relaxed and you will relax. A fake til you make it sorta deal.

Does she tie? If not she needs to learn. Start now. It will also teach her patience. Which is helpful during training.

Mix your training up. I never do the same thing with my mare. Its always random. Sometimes we work, sometimes we groom, sometimes we relax or take a walk, sometimes I just sit in the pasture and watch her and the herd (highly recommended , you can learn so much about horses by observing them with their herd) sometimes I'll put her halter on and turn her back out (this confuses her LoL and she'll follow me like I have the lead rope) I go about my chores and she goes out to graze with her halter on. So I'm sure you get my drift on how she never knows what to expect. This keeps her focused on me and what might be next.

Now remember rules like space invading and manners can never change but activities keep the mind thinking. We want them using the thinking side of the brain.

I know I'm missing info but I'm at a brain block for the moment. I'm on a cell phone and it takes me so long to type that I lose my train of thought. If I think of anything to add I will.

If you have questions don't hesitate to ask. Your doing a good job just be recognizing the problem. Good Luck!! And best wishes :) Keep us updated :)
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post #28 of 35 Old 01-21-2013, 11:47 PM
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No the reason she doesn't fully respect you is because you haven't consistently demanded it of her. Don't blame her behavior on what has happened before you.

However i do wish you luck, be consistent and remember you are head mare over every horse out there not her.
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post #29 of 35 Old 01-21-2013, 11:50 PM
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Originally Posted by BarrelracingArabian View Post
No the reason she doesn't fully respect you is because you haven't consistently demanded it of her. Don't blame her behavior on what has happened before you.

However i do wish you luck, be consistent and remember you are head mare over every horse out there not her.
One thing that might help you is to realize/remember that your horse is not living in the past - she is living in the present....and so must you.
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post #30 of 35 Old 01-21-2013, 11:55 PM Thread Starter
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Countrylove: Thank you soo much, I am going to save what you said and go back to it every time I forget!!!

Now.. for the questions you asked in your 'novel'...
1. I don't give her treats at all, she eats hay, salt block and mineral tub.
2. I am not sure about the feeding part. I wish I could, but hay is in the pen 24/7.
3. Yes she does tie, very well, I am working on getting her to tie for longer periods of time, without her pawing at the ground.

Thanks again, I really appreciate the time you put into this, and it will make a difference. Next time I go out, I will walk her around, take her places she doesn't like to go, and mix it up a lot.
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