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Trying to bite me when I mount

This is a discussion on Trying to bite me when I mount within the Horse Training forums, part of the Training Horses category

     
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        11-10-2010, 05:54 PM
      #21
    Trained
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by mls    
    Sorry Loosie - I have taught more than one horse to stand and or not bite while being mounted by the good old boot to the belly trick. It's not punishment. It's establishing to the horse that in the herd of him and me, I am the leader.
    Like I said, I generally disagree with using this sort of treatment in this situation personally, but I never said it wouldn't work. Just that depending on other factors & training, it *may well* be a temporary fix.

    A 'good old' boot to the belly may help 'establish' your leadership, but it IS DEFINITELY punishment & I don't get why you're debating that? Perhaps like Amlalriiee you perceive punishment is only what is done in anger without thought? Perhaps it's the general definition in your area? It is simply any 'bad' consequence that happens when the horse has offered you unwanted behaviour. Done *properly & appropriately*, I don't think punishment is any less effective or understood as for any other species, Snooky. Just as discussed with Amlal, many people use it badly and don't understand it's limitations & possible problems.
         
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        11-10-2010, 07:35 PM
      #22
    Weanling
    All very good points loosie, while we may differ in opinion on things I like your way of explaining yourself instead of lashing out :) I do love semantics....AND pedantics for that matter!
         
        11-11-2010, 09:55 AM
      #23
    Weanling
    Alright, here goes: I was too tired last night to respond properly. I do agree with your suggestion of removing the foot or the attempt to mount as soon as the horse relaxes/stops trying to bite/etc. That's what I do with my horse on things like tacking up if she acts up. I will hold the saddle up to her until her ears go forward and she ignores it, then take it away. YES, it does make perfect sense.

    However, I wouldn't say that what the OP is doing is wrong either. I think there are definitely many ways to achieve the same goal. I think it will work, wouldn't be the FIRST thing I'd try, because of my horse's personality, but it's by no means cruel. It's actually along the lines of Clinton Anderson in that his whole training philosophy is to communicate as horses would with one another and to make it MORE comfortable to do the right thing than the wrong thing. In order to assert themselves in a herd, horses make each others' feet move, so that is actually a good tactic to use.

    I see what you mean about how it is still reacting to the horse being "bad", but I guess I was looking at it in that you're not hurting the horse in any way, you're not saying "if you're bad I'll hurt you". You're simply saying that biting is not okay...and certainly it isn't. I could even see the boot to belly thing working depending on the horse, because it's just like in a herd when they get bit back. Not something I'd do with my horse but I can see it working with some.

    Anyway, I think it is largely dependent on the specifics of the horse you're working with. Whether they're pretending/trying to bite or if they're actually biting. What do they do when they CAN reach you to bite? I mean...don't offer a finger but just observe. When my mare did this, she never actually bit me...even if I was a few inches away. Anyway, it's all about the individual horse I think. Not that ABUSE is ever okay, but different degrees of REASONABLE and MEANINGFUL reinforcement/punishment, depending on the horse.
         
        11-11-2010, 10:05 AM
      #24
    mls
    Trained
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by loosie    
    Like I said, I generally disagree with using this sort of treatment in this situation personally, but I never said it wouldn't work. Just that depending on other factors & training, it *may well* be a temporary fix.

    A 'good old' boot to the belly may help 'establish' your leadership, but it IS DEFINITELY punishment & I don't get why you're debating that? Perhaps like Amlalriiee you perceive punishment is only what is done in anger without thought? Perhaps it's the general definition in your area?
    Well - if temporary is going on two years (in one particular horses case), yep then it's just a temporary fix!

    I weigh 1/10th of most of the horses I work with. My boot in their belly is an attention getter. When you tap someone on the shoulder - is that punishment?
         
        11-11-2010, 12:03 PM
      #25
    Foal
    Black and White, keep it Black and White!
    This is a good thread.
    My guy likes to toss his head my way as I am tacking him up
    And he runs into my elbow every time now!
         
        11-11-2010, 07:30 PM
      #26
    Trained
    Agree completely & totally with your last post Amlalriiee. You put it very well.

    To be sure, I wasn't saying OP was doing the wrong thing either, just that (depending on specifics) it could well be perceived by the horse as -R when she removed her foot..... which may also have been fine too for that matter, but I think it's helpful to understand the principles of everything you do, so you can understand better what messages you may be giving to your horse at all times. That's why I may appear to get carried away with 'semantics' & 'pedantics'! Just trying to explain the psychological differences between 'methods'.

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by mls    
    Well - if temporary is going on two years (in one particular horses case), yep then it's just a temporary fix!
    Please re-read what I said, if you don't get what I was getting at with the possibility of punishment being temporary. Or better still(& likely clearer than my convoluted thoughts), do a bit of study into behavioural psychology, to learn it's limitations & possible 'side effects', how it works.

    [/quote]I weigh 1/10th of most of the horses I work with. My boot in their belly is an attention getter. When you tap someone on the shoulder - is that punishment?[/QUOTE]

    Well to get particular, of course it's not *usually* perceived as a punishment to tap someone on the shoulder, but to really consider it, depending on the situation, person, etc, it certainly could well be. Again, I'm discussing principles, not wishing to be judging specific situations(of which I don't feel I'd have the right, with only a few words to go on anyway), but I did perceive your words of 'boot to the belly' to mean something a lot stronger than an attention getting tap.

    Quote:
    My guy likes to toss his head my way as I am tacking him up
    And he runs into my elbow every time now!
    Yes! When I do choose to use punishment, if it is a situation that can be planned for like that, I think that's a great way to use it, because it is more of a 'self punishment' to *himself*, rather than being perceived as *you* paying out on the horse(he was silly enough to run into your elbow). It also means the punishment happens in perfect timing - at the time of the 'bad' behaviour, rather than after it's happened, which means it's far more likely to be associated with that particular behaviour.
         

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