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Use of whips in training?

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  • Smack the horse with whip
  • Smacking a horse with whip

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    06-24-2012, 02:10 AM
  #11
Showing
I'm guessing he did not want to spend the time to do it as I would have done it.
     
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    06-24-2012, 02:16 AM
  #12
Trained
Horses for courses. If a quick smack with a whip gets their head into gear, I'd much rather than than bore the life out of them spending hours on 'natural horsemanship' groundwork, making them go round, and round, and round, and round in endless circles.
I'm more of the ask nicely once, then it's business, type of person. They get their chance to respond to my aid, and if they don't, then they get told. Unless the horse is genuinely fearful or confused, at which time I will still be very firm to make the answer as clear as mud for them.


As for spurs OP, like with anything, if you're a useless rider with an anger issue or no control of your lower leg, then yes you can inflict pain and injury.
A good rider can just touch the spur and get a good reaction - and I tell you what, I know I'd rather be tapped once, lightly, with a rolling spur, then have my ribs kicked over and over because my rider thinks spurs are 'cruel' ;)
     
    06-24-2012, 02:17 AM
  #13
Cat
Green Broke
If the horse knew what he was supposed to do and ignoring cues - the horse is being disrespectful and the trainer may have been justified. How many really depends on the horse's response. Did the horse try after the first one and he kept going despite the horse's try? Then he may have taken it too far. Or was the horse giving him the proverbial middle finger and trying to ignore him? Then he may have only been using the force necessary.

Its hard to say without actually seeing it. Not to mention 10 horse people could watch the same video and come to 15 different conclusions among them.
     
    06-24-2012, 10:05 PM
  #14
Weanling
I totally agree, but whipping loudly like that, not appropriate. One good wack should be fine, but over and over, no.

I feel people use crops and whips as punishment, and not a learning tool.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skyseternalangel    
I would not do that to my horse.

If a horse was aggressive towards me then I wouldn't hesitate to smack him to deter him from being aggressive again.

But over and over and over.. was the horse doing something to warrant that kind of reaction? It sounds kind of like, from what you're telling me, it was an anger-influenced reaction.
     
    06-24-2012, 10:14 PM
  #15
Showing
Quote:
Originally Posted by Black Beauty 94    
I feel people use crops and whips as punishment, and not a learning tool.
This is not true. Of course there are people who do that, but it's equally true about bits, spurs, chains, etc. Such people can make anything a punishment tool.

I always keep a whip with me when I ride as well as my current instructor. It's just there and not used, but if I need to back up my leg - I just do it. Also when my qh tried to bully me this Spring (I was away for couple weeks and my parents let her get away with everything, and of course she used an opportunity) next time I was leading her I took a stick with me. One good smack as a correction reminded her who's in charge, and she hasn't misbehaved since. Frankly one quick correction I find to be way more effective and easier on a horse than 30 mins of "natural approach".

BTW, as someone on thread mentioned if you try to smack yourself with the whip (I did several times to get a feeling) it's in fact nothing.
     
    06-24-2012, 10:23 PM
  #16
Weanling
Yes, it is true. Yes, that is true about bits and spurs.
Did you guys actually smack yourself hard, like some people do to horses, I was free lounging and used a whip to get him to move around, and I hit myself and it burned!
Quote:
Originally Posted by kitten_Val    
This is not true. Of course there are people who do that, but it's equally true about bits, spurs, chains, etc. Such people can make anything a punishment tool.

I always keep a whip with me when I ride as well as my current instructor. It's just there and not used, but if I need to back up my leg - I just do it. Also when my qh tried to bully me this Spring (I was away for couple weeks and my parents let her get away with everything, and of course she used an opportunity) next time I was leading her I took a stick with me. One good smack as a correction reminded her who's in charge, and she hasn't misbehaved since. Frankly one quick correction I find to be way more effective and easier on a horse than 30 mins of "natural approach".

BTW, as someone on thread mentioned if you try to smack yourself with the whip (I did several times to get a feeling) it's in fact nothing.
     
    06-24-2012, 10:27 PM
  #17
Trained
Va-you were there for a lesson. I am assuming (which I hate to do, but.....) that this is the same big time reining trainer you talked about in previous posts. Why not ask? You cannot learn if you don't ask. WE here on the computer can guess all night, and perhaps not get it right. I will say that next week when you go, the trainer will most likely not remember it. But, if you see something you don't understand the reasoning behind-ask. Worst they can do is not answer.

To the other posters here-hard to say what the horse was doing, or even what the "whip" was. I would not sit here and pretend to second guess a trainer who was there. I would need a bit more knowledge of the situation, training level of the horse, etc. At these training barns they do NOT use natural horsemanship. They use GOOD horsemanship. The mention of some one like PP and you can almost see them cringe. They are paid to get results, and they do. Are some rougher than others-yeah Are there some I wouldn't send my horse to-yeah. But we have no idea who this trainer is, his methods, etc, and IMO, we should not be second guessing the actions of a trainer based on the observations of a beginner student.

Tread carefully OP, on how you "push" this trainer about your lessons, etc. Yes, high level reining trainers are difficult to find, and where you are, there are not a lot of them. You can be easily replaced as a student. If he really feels like you are trying and listening-you will be fine. But if your attitude gets at ALL like you are owed something you may well be looking for a new place to ride. Just a suggestion. Most of them are men of few words.
     
    06-24-2012, 10:30 PM
  #18
Showing
Quote:
Originally Posted by Black Beauty 94    
I totally agree, but whipping loudly like that, not appropriate. One good wack should be fine, but over and over, no.

I feel people use crops and whips as punishment, and not a learning tool.
Well I respect your opinion, but that wasn't what my post was about frankly :P Every correction has to have a purpose. Sometimes it's to stop a violent attempt like biting, sometimes it's to discourage rearing, sometimes it's to get a horse to move their feet, etc.

Smacking a horse repeatedly, without a break, must warrant a poor behavior in my book or it seems like it was done out of anger which isn't good for working with horses, but hey we're human.

I'm not sure what the horse was doing at the time, so I can't really jump to conclusions and say "this is what happened" because I wasn't there and am relying on what the OP saw. But even then.. people see things differently than others. Use of a whip to someone could mean a good thing to one person and a horrid thing to another. Just about perspective and understanding via knowledge.

A crop hurts more than a whip, when I smacked myself accidentally in my leg once (and gave me a good wakeup call haha!) it just makes a lot of noise, but the anger of the action behind the correction (if any) is what would bother me.. that's asking for a fear response from the horse and doesn't teach them much of anything.
     
    06-24-2012, 10:33 PM
  #19
Weanling
What was your post about? It was about whips?

That is just how I feel about it, people have the right to their opinion though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skyseternalangel    
Well I respect your opinion, but that wasn't what my post was about frankly :P Every correction has to have a purpose. Sometimes it's to stop a violent attempt like biting, sometimes it's to discourage rearing, sometimes it's to get a horse to move their feet, etc.

Smacking a horse repeatedly, without a break, must warrant a poor behavior in my book or it seems like it was done out of anger which isn't good for working with horses, but hey we're human.

I'm not sure what the horse was doing at the time, so I can't really jump to conclusions and say "this is what happened" because I wasn't there and am relying on what the OP saw. But even then.. people see things differently than others. Use of a whip to someone could mean a good thing to one person and a horrid thing to another. Just about perspective and understanding via knowledge.

A crop hurts more than a whip, when I smacked myself accidentally in my leg once (and gave me a good wakeup call haha!) it just makes a lot of noise, but the anger of the action behind the correction (if any) is what would bother me.. that's asking for a fear response from the horse and doesn't teach them much of anything.
     
    06-24-2012, 10:35 PM
  #20
Showing
Quote:
Originally Posted by Black Beauty 94    
Did you guys actually smack yourself hard, like some people do to horses, I was free lounging and used a whip to get him to move around, and I hit myself and it burned!
Well, I'm not "some people" , but I smacked myself with both - carrot stick and dressage whip and didn't even had a red trace or something left on skin.

BTW I have to say carrot stick (that is thicker, longer and sturdier, so I personally find it more convenient to use on ground) is much milder in its action than say dressage whip. And if you use dressage whip when you are in saddle the most part of tap usually goes on pad anyway.
     

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