This is very bad Can anyone help. - The Horse Forum
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post #1 of 28 Old 04-21-2009, 11:53 AM Thread Starter
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Unhappy This is very bad Can anyone help.

I Had just picked up a young horse. 4yrs old. That needed to be started. We started with some ground work in the round pen and the horse was acctually doing pretty good. We sacked her out and did fine. We saddled her the first time and she buck like she was a veteran rodeo horse. She bucked again the second time, but not the third so she was doing ok. A trainer said that I should tie her head down to help get vertical flexion and to be soft to the bit. He said alot the cutting trainers do it and there is an article in the aqha journal about a ranch that does it tas well. He said it is safer for me cause if im on the horse and am asking for her to break at the pole he has seen horses flip over and really hurt or kill people before. So if you tie them down they can get the fliping over out of there system if they are going to flip over at all. The ranch gets rid of the ones that flip over to other ranches or people to put more time into.
So I tied her down and she fell down got up and fliped over backwards. Then she got up and did it again and broke her nose and started to bleed out of it. They she keep on hitting her head and we finally had to put her down. She had done to much damage to herself. We did everything we could to free her in time but it all happened so quickly and horroribly. Please tell me of other ways to get vertical flexion on a green horse in a safe way for both human and horse. I understand if any of you think I should be tied down and have my head beat in I deserve it.
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post #2 of 28 Old 04-21-2009, 12:29 PM
mls
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I treat each horse as an individual. I see what they need before I try to 'fix' anything. One base method does not work for all horses - which you found out the hardest way of all.
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post #3 of 28 Old 04-21-2009, 12:42 PM
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I'm very sorry for your loss.

I would finish all ground training first. Becoming responsive on a lunge. Leading quietly, standing tied, not rushing the gate, etc. Then graduate to saddle work, focus on having it becoming trusting and responsive.
A horse that's soft in the bit is one trained with patience. A good trainer who breaks a horse out in 60 days, works at a steady but gentle pace. You don't want to rush into more complicated things to fast to soon. Start with addition and work your way up to multiplication and division. You gotta know the basics before you can advance :)

If possible it's also try working with a younger horse. A yearling to two year old is ideal in my opinion, you can really do all your nice light ground work, get to know the horse, and at three begin saddle training, by four have a nice broke horse if trained properly.
With some horses, you can have a broke horse at three. It all depends.

I'm working with a difficult three year, I don't expect him to be completely broke before 5. Right now, I'm working with just being able to touch him without him dancing away. I hope by the end of next month he'll be able to catch, lead, and by the end of the month after that, stand tied and pick up his feet.

Each horse is different. Some need more discipline, more work and patience, some just need to just be shown what to do.

Wait! I'll fix it....
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post #4 of 28 Old 04-21-2009, 12:59 PM
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I'm sorry for your loss.
I never ask a green horse for vertical flexion as quick as that.
I want them to give to pressure, sure. However, I start laterally...side to side. Like two gelding said, they should be solid on the ground first. They should be quiet and respond to pressure on the bit.
Tying a horses's head down, obviously, does no real good. A green horse could only be expected to freak out from feeling claustrophobic...I'm sorry you had to go through that.
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post #5 of 28 Old 04-21-2009, 01:38 PM
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I think as soon as the horse bucked with the saddle you should have taken steps back to fix that instead of rushing to the next thing.
I would rather have a horse with good training then one with harsh equipment...

From east to west a travlin gypsy found her prancing pony for now their hearts run as one...into the north
~Traveler
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post #6 of 28 Old 04-21-2009, 01:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by travlingypsy View Post
I think as soon as the horse bucked with the saddle you should have taken steps back to fix that instead of rushing to the next thing.
A very good portion of youngsters buck the first few times a saddle is cinched on. I don't see that as a problem. I worry more when they have NO reaction to the saddle.
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post #7 of 28 Old 04-21-2009, 01:44 PM
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I don't know maybe I like the baby steps and I would rather have the horse w/t/c good undersaddle then really start going on to the next big thing.

From east to west a travlin gypsy found her prancing pony for now their hearts run as one...into the north
~Traveler
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post #8 of 28 Old 04-21-2009, 01:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by travlingypsy View Post
I don't know maybe I like the baby steps and I would rather have the horse w/t/c good undersaddle then really start going on to the next big thing.
The OP had the saddle on to start the process of W/T/C under saddle. How do you get more 'baby' than that??
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post #9 of 28 Old 04-21-2009, 01:49 PM
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wow, that's horrible. I would find a new trainer. I am not a big fan of that rough idea of "breaking" a horse. I don't like to force them to deal with anything. And if the horse isn't even started under saddle, you definitely do not need to worry about flexing at the poll. Besides, flexing at the poll should be something that comes naturally, not forced. With young horses, I do a lot of work on the lunge line. First just teach them to free lunge in a round pen, work up to lunging with a bit and surcingle, then introduce side reins SLOWLY (and at the longest length first) to start your horse rounding. But I would only work on rounding and collection work once you have a very solid groundwork base, and your horse is used to wearing tack and equipment. Take things very slow, or you will be tramatizing your horse. A tramatized horse will never be a reliable mount. Training should NEVER be excessively dangerous for you or the horse. You might do some reading on horse training, I love to read all the different trainer's perspectives. I have a 5 year old I started at 4, and a 3 year old I am already using as a trail mount. This natural, gentle horsemanship stuff really works. My horses are happy, safe and well behaved. Here are some of my favorites:

Http://www.amazon.com/Making-Not-Breaking-First-Saddle/dp/0914327437/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1240336354&sr=8-1http://www.amazon.com/Birth-Backing-Complete-Handling-Young/dp/1570761205/ref=pd_sim_b_5http://www.amazon.com/Groundwork-Training-your-Horse-Exercises/dp/0715324411/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1240336467&sr=1-2http://www.amazon.com/Training-Horses-Doubleday-Equestrian-Library/dp/0385262388/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1240336467&sr=1-4http://www.amazon.com/Lyons-Horses-Conditioned-Response-Training-Program/dp/038541398X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1240336651&sr=1-1
I really like anything by John Lyons and Monty Roberts, both have very effective training styles. I would recommend exposing yourself to different ideas on training from every type of trainer, and decide what you are most comfortable with. Definitely don't let a single trainer tell you exactly horse you are supposed to do things, especially if it seems dangerous.

The basest horn of his hoof is more musical than the pipe of Hermes.
He's of the color of the nutmeg and of the heart of the ginger.
His neigh is like the bidding of a monarch,
And his countenance enforces homage.
- William Shakespeare
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post #10 of 28 Old 04-21-2009, 01:51 PM
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wow, that's horrible. I would find a new trainer. I am not a big fan of that rough idea of "breaking" a horse. I don't like to force them to deal with anything. And if the horse isn't even started under saddle, you definitely do not need to worry about flexing at the poll. Besides, flexing at the poll should be something that comes naturally, not forced. With young horses, I do a lot of work on the lunge line. First just teach them to free lunge in a round pen, work up to lunging with a bit and surcingle, then introduce side reins SLOWLY (and at the longest length first) to start your horse rounding. But I would only work on rounding and collection work once you have a very solid groundwork base, and your horse is used to wearing tack and equipment. Take things very slow, or you will be tramatizing your horse. A tramatized horse will never be a reliable mount. Training should NEVER be excessively dangerous for you or the horse. You might do some reading on horse training, I love to read all the different trainer's perspectives. I have a 5 year old I started at 4, and a 3 year old I am already using as a trail mount. This natural, gentle horsemanship stuff really works. My horses are happy, safe and well behaved. Here are some of my favorites:

Http://www.amazon.com/Making-Not-Breaking-First-Saddle/dp/0914327437/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1240336354&sr=8-1http://www.amazon.com/Birth-Backing-Complete-Handling-Young/dp/1570761205/ref=pd_sim_b_5http://www.amazon.com/Groundwork-Training-your-Horse-Exercises/dp/0715324411/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1240336467&sr=1-2http://www.amazon.com/Training-Horses-Doubleday-Equestrian-Library/dp/0385262388/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1240336467&sr=1-4http://www.amazon.com/Lyons-Horses-Conditioned-Response-Training-Program/dp/038541398X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1240336651&sr=1-1
I really like anything by John Lyons and Monty Roberts, both have very effective training styles. I would recommend exposing yourself to different ideas on training from every type of trainer, and decide what you are most comfortable with. Definitely don't let a single trainer tell you exactly horse you are supposed to do things, especially if it seems dangerous.

The basest horn of his hoof is more musical than the pipe of Hermes.
He's of the color of the nutmeg and of the heart of the ginger.
His neigh is like the bidding of a monarch,
And his countenance enforces homage.
- William Shakespeare
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