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Very intolerant of backing at a quicker pace

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        09-28-2013, 01:03 AM
      #11
    Foal
    It Definitely seems more of dominance then fear, ears pinned, tail swishing and pawing at the ground, I feel if I continued that pressure he would of struck out at me. I forced I'm away and around me at a hard lope for awhile directly after, I didn't feel in a safe spot to continue pushing him. He's great with everything else on the ground, does yielding, flexing, lunging, and sending without issue other then being a little lazy sometimes, and is generally soft and responsive.
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        09-28-2013, 01:09 AM
      #12
    Super Moderator
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by TwistedSerpent    
    I don't think I mentioned the main issue is on the ground. The only time he gets backed for a correction is usually just to reposition him if he walks off without me after a whoa, done with seat and legs with rein backup if needed. He does it alright but without speed.

    On the ground I start off nicely by wiggling the lead line then increase pressure waving with rope and stick, then proceed bumping in the chest. He takes his first few steps without much fight, they're just very slow steps.

    I was asking for a few quicker steps when the problems came with the increased pressure, or if I ask him to back more then 5 or so steps.
    He's usually very quick to pick up on things so I think I was just pushing him too fast out of his safe zone, but my worry is he's putting up a fight and by taking steps back to ease him into it and avoiding his frustration is a way of letting him win and not fixing the issue, just avoiding it.

    I feel bad about it for being in his face, and hope he doesn't resent me for pushing him that far, this has been our first major hiccup together.

    I haven't noticed any hopping or physical distress but I will pay close attention to it.
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    without much fight? To me, that is a big logjam that needs to be broken free. It's like the hrose is stuck, and while he moves, he moves as if through molasses, no? I bet there are other things wherein his response is sluggish and resentful. Will he move forward promptly, and willingly? Step over a bit when you are grooming and need him to move over? If you think about it, is he stuck in more ways than just backing?

    But, for this thing, first of all, it sounds as if you go from a 1 to a 2 to a 5 to a 7 to a 9 to a ? In intensity in your "ask". If he has a finger wiggling, then rope, then a stick waving then the stick hitting his chest, he has way too much time to build up resentment and resistance.

    It's not how fast he actually backs up, or that he back up a long ways, but that his response to being asked to back up be reasonably prompt, and the quality of how he lifts his feet and moves backward be light and committed. And all the steps are just too much nagging .

    Wake him up! Ask at a 1, go to a 5 then go to a 10.! Do something surprising to get him to take a second look at you, then when he does, ask very softly and I bet he'll back lighter. Once you have his real attention, he'll be so available to you
         
        09-28-2013, 01:12 AM
      #13
    Foal
    Unless he is afraid of it, now that I think of it he's head high eyes wide at first, then got rude when the pressure wouldn't stop. I really don't feel he's acting up because he's overall disrespectful, but what if he's the type to challenge a threat before running? He is top horse out here, and I have not seen him spook at anything besides a noise that scared me too.

    I just don't feel like I'd get anywhere if I try to win this by forcing it out of him and bringing him back to that mindset.
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        09-28-2013, 01:26 AM
      #14
    Foal
    He does very well with moving what I need him too, oncecin awhile I need to remind him to wake him up a bit, and I haven't noticed and resentment , often he would over yield, take more steps over then I ask.

    I might of been taking too long to ask, and definitely not releasing pressure soon enough. At the end of our session though when I started over he was taking a few steps with just a wiggle, not very pretty but I ended it there nice and easy.

    Its sounding more as if I'm having unreal expectations of what I know he is capable of, just I'm trying to get there the wrong way. He's been doing so well with everything else I was in the mindset of progressing fast with something we haven't worked on much, I forget how long we've been working on these things he's doing so well at.
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        09-28-2013, 01:53 AM
      #15
    Yearling
    I would check out Clinton Anderson videos on the back up. His advice really helped me.

    Right now, you are getting resistance. He should be backing with a "yes Mame!" attitude.

    CA says to ask then tell then demand. With a buggy whip, wave the whip in small motions up and down in front of him and tell him to back. If he doesn't move,wave the stick with bigger arcs. If he still doesn't move, tap his head firmly.

    He may step sideways. Follow him and keep the pressure on. He may rear up. That's why you use a long whip. Keep the pressure on! As soon as he takes a step, release the pressure and rub his head with the whip to desensitize him to it. Then ask again.

    Release pressure when he takes one step, then 2, and stop after he has backed well 4-5 times. After each release of pressure, rub it away with the whip.

    Each day, ask for more steps and/ or more speed. Ask. Tell. Demand. Don't take pressure off until he tries to do what you ask. I remember the day my April put her head down as she quickly stepped back. We quit for the day on that one!

    Backing slowly is a common way for a horse to show resistance. But once you can move past the initial resistance and get that "Yes Mame (or Sir)" response, you will notice a much better attitude in your horse. I sure did from my hot headed April!
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        09-28-2013, 11:06 AM
      #16
    Super Moderator
    There seem to be several methods for training back up from the ground - and as they can all work I wont slam any of them
    I personally don't use any method that involves waggling a rope in front of the horse or waving a whip because I find that distract the horse too much - it wants to raise its head and look at the rope/whip/my arm and that's not what I want - I want them to drop their heads
    I prefer to put some gentle pressure on the lead rope or reins (don't want to start a horse off by thinking it has to have anything more than the lightest touch to ask for back up) At the same time I push the horse back with pressure on its chest and say 'back' - repeating the verbal command so they associate that sound and word with the action - you can cluck/click at the same time If the horse ignores my push that is the point that I will apply more force - on the chest but without raising my hand too high - and give them a harder slap/slaps until they take a step back - then praise or reward if you use treats.
    Once they associate me pointing at their chest with back up they will do it with no verbal commands or contact but I still like to use the actual word 'back' for in saddle training
         
        09-29-2013, 09:15 AM
      #17
    Yearling
    Your cue needs to be tweaked a bit. He should take the 'back' off of your seat and he should back as long as he feels your seat cueing him to do so. The reins, in the back cue are a reminder not to go forward, if needed, or a half halt before the cue. Backing should not be a rein cue. IMO, I'm a dressage/eventing person and that's how we do it :)
         
        09-29-2013, 09:18 AM
      #18
    Yearling
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by TwistedSerpent    
    It Definitely seems more of dominance then fear, ears pinned, tail swishing and pawing at the ground, I feel if I continued that pressure he would of struck out at me. I forced I'm away and around me at a hard lope for awhile directly after, I didn't feel in a safe spot to continue pushing him. He's great with everything else on the ground, does yielding, flexing, lunging, and sending without issue other then being a little lazy sometimes, and is generally soft and responsive.
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    That's a pretty nasty reaction. If it were me, I would back him for MILES when he started to throw a fit.
         
        09-29-2013, 09:40 AM
      #19
    Yearling
    Just throwing this out there....he doesn't have any stifle issues does he?
         
        09-29-2013, 09:47 AM
      #20
    Started
    Before you are too assertive....please be sure he doesn't have a physical problem. EPSM, weak stifles etc. can play a HUGE role if that is what is going on, and the horse simply physically can't do what you are asking. Rule this stuff out first.
         

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