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Video working with my pushy reactive mare Joy

4K views 37 replies 10 participants last post by  Saddlebag 
#1 · (Edited)
So I've been working with joy and she has been doing better. She is pushy and reactive at first but if its addressed at the beginning of the training session she eventually stops and starts to listen. So these two video's are me working on her reactivity and some of her disrespectful dominance behavior. Sorry I go out of frame a few times I put my phone on my gate. After these two videos I had two more videos but it seems my phone ate them so I'm going to take some more tomorrow. So what's missing after this is I saddled her up and I lunged her again only this time with quick changes of direction with out stopping her. You may notice she is most pushy when I'm on her right side. When I did the quick direction changes she would attempt to push her shoulder into me and crowd me at a fast pace i wish I could of showed you guys that one it was my favorite and a more interesting problem to watch me correct. So it took a few minutes but I got her to finally quit crowding me. Anyways after we did that I rode her. A screw in the headstall I had her bit on broke so I had to use a rope halter to ride her and she was great tried to crow hop once but besides that she did everything I told her to do.

Click on the linkto start the video. Feel free to skip around a bit if needed I go out of frame occasionally.
http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/...B-ABEF-B9F903D30F24-7536-000008B2154E7DB3.mp4

http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/...BA51-F1EAC1EC9B6C-7208-0000087F84EB7045-2.mp4
 
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#2 ·
Also normally I lunge her with a lunge line so she doesn't have to make such tight circles but I accidentally forgot it at home. I currently do no own a round pen that is going to be my Christmas present to myself this year :).
 
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#3 ·
A pushy and reactive horse would run over the top of you if you sent them forward like that with a crop and then kept their front end pointed right at yourself. Your horse is very politely letting you stay right up in her personal space while you are cracking a whip. She even rears up and avoids hitting you. That is being very non-pushy.

Near the beginning of the first video, you send your horse toward the left side of the screen but you're not watching her. She hits the end of the lead, which pulls her face back toward yourself. Then you yank around on the lead and correct her. Why? She was following the lead rope.

It seems that the horse would benefit from more talking and less yelling.
If it feels like she is shouting at you, that is because you are shouting at her. Why can't you try a gentle pull, then a light tug if there is no response instead of every movement of the lead being a quick, hard jerk?

Also, how does your horse know what you are asking? Do you want her to move her hind end away from the whip around you once in a circle? Then instead of starting with six circles before giving a break and reward, try two steps. Then slowly progress up to one circle, and etc.

It might seem like she is pushing into you, but you are not giving her enough space to do anything except come into your body. A horse has a large body to move around.

If a horse reacts too quickly, slow down your own movements and cues.
 
#4 · (Edited)
1.) I do not see a pushy or dominant horse here at all in these videos.

2.) I do see insufficient reward when she does the RIGHT thing.

When she stands and stops moving her feet in reaction to the whip, YOU should stop swinging the whip and back off. Spend some time rubbing her head and letting her relax. THEN go in again.. and when she stops and stands drop the whip and back away.. rub her head.. let her relax.

This will help her to understand the "right" thing is to stand quietly. When she stands quietly, you release the pressure.

Instead what I see is after she stands quietly you are still banging the whip around and keeping the pressure on. How can she possibly KNOW when she has got it right? "Good girl" is not a language horses understand. They read body language and stance and they are not verbal.

Many trainers make this mistake. They are often good at letting a horse (or any other animal) know when they have got it wrong.. but a good trainer knows to let the horse know when they have it RIGHT. Making a big deal out of right behavior (removing pressure.. backing off.. rubbing the horse's head and so forth) will go a LONG way training.

A quick correction for the wrong thing and keeping the pressure on.. and IMMEDIATE release of pressure and an opportunity for the horse to relax when they do the right thing.

All I see here is a horse that is never being really told when she is right and so she is not sure. Her head up, ears back, moving away from you and so forth is all horse not being sure of what you want because when she stops you don't back down.Actually, her stance is the same stance a horse in a herd takes when she is avoiding a horse that is higher in the pecking order telling her to get outta the way.
 
#8 ·
I don't release immediately with this particular exercise because she needs to show me she's not going to move again, horses often move after you stop immediately, your supposed to not release for about 8-15 seconds roughly. Im perfectly aware what pressure and release is so just settle it down there. After they stop and I do pet and rub her I don't know what your talking about but I'm not gonna sit there and baby her either,This mare likes to crowd push and rear up you don't know my horse I do. The video isn't made for you to get so upset about lol everyone trains differently. I'm kinda mad my phone didn't work out with rest of the session.
 
#9 · (Edited)
Ok so this is like my first few times with this particular exercise (which you guys can obviously tell). I was trying to learn different ground work and I saw Clinton Anderson do this and I wanted to try it out apparently I'm doing it wrong so ill rewatch it or go back to what I know and not do this anymore... But I'll try again today I put this video up to get others opinions as I wanted others eyes to go over it improve myself. So you say I don't reward good enough are you saying I should rub her more? And he does constantly push her shoulder into me and my space I actually don't want her to be that close so, this is why I recorded myself to improve. I can always learn more a horse trainer that stops learning isn't a good horse trainer.
 
#10 · (Edited)
Also thank you for your constructive criticism I will take into account what you guys said. Sorry I was defensive in my first post I had just woken up and I didn't mean for it to come off that way. After I reread myself I was like oops that doesn't sound good. Anyways I would like to do that right so it seems I need to watch my lead placement. I watched myself again after what you guys said so I see what you all are saying. I think I get to focused on trying to work her and maybe I don't reward enough. So I made a mental note to rub her good today! But she does try to push on me crowd me an constantly get in my space maybe the video doesn't show it good enough but she does do this. As for communicating with her, I have trouble clicking with her mentally and it frustrates me. I always seem to having problems with this another reason I recorded myself to look at her body language and see what I missed. I'm trying guys I am in no way perfect and always love to improve. This is very important to me I want to get it right.
 
#11 ·
My impression in the first video is the mare is concerned about the whip. There are numerous exercises (Parelli) on desensitizing the horse to the whip. Be alert to releasing the pressure by lowering the whip away from her and even turning your back for a brief time. - 20 seconds or so. Look at the sky, empty your mind of what you want to accomplish that day. There are no deadlines in horse training. CA has publicly stated that altho his videos can help it's often the subtle body language he uses that isn't picked up on, thus failure. I was releasing the pressure with one horse, but discovered with him, by removing his halter and walking away completely took the pressure off him and when I rehaltered and asked again I got double the try. Rather than yank on the halter to move her off, try touching her neck behind the jaw. If she turns her head away and uses her shoulder, then give her shoulder a tap. If she insists, wave the whip toward the whip and at the same time run toward it so it pulls her head around. She'll be in a hurry to get her hip out of the way. Keep following her hip until she stops circling, then move away and allow her to stand. Good luck. Each horse is different and you will learn a lot from this one. Keep in mind, as you teach her, she is teaching you. Don't be afraid to quit what you are doing if it's not working. Take the time to analyse it and try a different approach.
 
#12 ·
Thank you saddlebag. Trust me I feel like I learn more from her everyday we are communicating better I feel like but we aren't perfect yet but progressing everyday. I think your right I need more whip desensitization so ill play with that today as well. I'm actually thankful that she has been more challenging for me than any horse I've worked with before as I feel like I'm growing as a person and trainer.
 
#13 ·
One thing that has really helped me get better is just what you're doing here, filming yourself. I like to do that and then compare it to people who are at the level I want to get to. I think that it keeps me growing as a horseman as well as keeping my ego in check (which can get a little big sometimes, not gonna lie).

That said, I do have a few observations. My first and most overwhelming impression is that the mare's energy is a mirror image of yours. All that tail-swishing at the beginning is indicative of what I like to call 'stored tension'. Does that make sense? Do you get the feeling that even though you're doing the desensitization exercises that the mare isn't really letting go of her fear? It has to do with the tension you're holding in your own body. I first became aware of this phenomenon watching Buck Brannaman live in Colorado a few years ago. I was really struck by how slowly and deliberately this guy moves almost all the time. Almost to a comical degree, or at least that's how it felt when I started trying to imitate it. I never realized until then how abrupt and in a hurry I was when I was handling my horses. And so are you. :wink:

I'll make one other observation that may prove helpful, if you don't already hate me for suggesting that you're afraid of your horse lol. XD and that is, try standing behind her elbow with a longer rope so that she can move her head all the way around in both directions. With the hand that's not holding the whip, use it to pet her continuously as you swing your whip in the other hand. This will help to truly calm her about the whip instead of merely teaching her to freeze and 'go inside herself' when she's afraid. Does that make sense? If she moves, walk toward her hindquarters rather than standing in front of her and backing her up. By allowing her to move naturally in this way she'll actually release that tension that she's holding in her body instead of stifling it and stuffing it down as happens when she's made to stand still and just 'tolerate' the scary things being done TO her. I don't think so much of making a horse stand as allowing them to stand when they want to and move when they need to. I really don't care if they stand or not, because getting used to the whip while their feet are moving is equally valuable in terms of training. By maintaining your position behind her elbow instead of in front of the shoulder, she won't be able to run you over and you'll be able to maintain your position relative to hers with minimal effort and risk of being stepped on.

Alright, I'd better stop before this gets any longer. :mrgreen:
 
#14 ·
I loved the way you explained that thank you. I think you right I need to cool my energy. And as for being scared I don't think that is the right word more like I have anxiety and she is noticing that too she also has anxiety it very apparent in her tail swishing. That's probably why I'm having trouble working with her I don't feel anxious around my colts or my gelding, and usually not when working with other horses. I think it's because I've owned her for so long she hurt me a few times years ago when I was a teenager and I get that fact that we don't click mentally sometimes frustrates me. But your right she is mirroring me so I need to watch myself.
 
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#15 ·
Also Ian I just want to say you just gave me an Ah Hah moment! I didn't realize it till you said I was scared and it made me realize I have anxiety when I'm around her. I didn't realize it till you pointed it out so thank you!
 
#24 · (Edited)
No prob! I too admire your courage in posting these videos. These deals can turn out kind of like a firing squad sometimes but you have a good attitude. I'm sure you'll get it. I think that if learning this stuff turns you on, you'll learn it. You'll find a way.

Figured I'd post up a session I did, just to show what the stuff I'm talking about looks like. This was one of those rare days where it all came together AND there was someone there to film it. Notice in the video that there are no cuts, so it all takes place in real time. Even though it shows the horse very rapidly looking better than what he does at the start (just under 10 minutes), when I'm in there I'm not thinking about time at all. Also, he is NOT now "fixed forever" lol. I'll save you the trouble of experiencing my long-term sticking point, because that's what I used to think when I'd see these demonstrations. So I'll let you in on it up-front: He's not. :wink:

I've come to realize that 95% of this is mental. When you can get into the right head space, the techniques and methods become clear and your work will take on a flow-like quality. At that point, it doesn't matter what methods or tools you're using. You can utilize any method or tool because the horse is locked into you. No method, no tool, just communication. All the external things become irrelevant to the horse. That, I believe, is how the good riders "do it". The way I think of the ideal head space is "relaxed yet alert, ready but not tense, not complacent, but confident".

Easier said than done right? Anxiety can be a problem! Though I wonder if our common thinking on this isn't flawed. We have this idea that you shouldn't be anxious around a horse, because we know that they pick up on it. But I say that to try and stifle my feelings and hide them from the horse makes him far more suspicious of me than if I were just afraid, because at least then I'd be congruent with how I really felt. I believe that it's that in-congruency (faking it) that puts horses off, not the anxiety itself. I'm not afraid to show my full emotional range to the horse, because he'll be equally honest with me and then we'll both TRULY know where the other stands. That's how I think of building trust, confidence, and all that other good stuff with the horse.

Anyway, in the video I'm keeping my rope long and continuously walking toward his hindquarters. Sometimes using the flag to move him, other times touching him with it in a way to get him used to it. In my head, I'm not the least bit afraid to be in that space and to stay in that space, because of the knowledge I have that if I just keep walking toward his hindquarters, give him enough rope to get away from me, and use my flag to defend my space if need be, I will be safe. Then it's simply a matter of waiting until I see a change in his demeanor. As he gives me more of his attention (without being scared) I gradually do less physically until I reach the point where he's responding to my requests as signals rather than as physical pressure or leverage. That's how I sensitize and de-sensitize a horse at the same time, making him lighter without becoming more scared and calmer without becoming duller. Learn the technique, but also realize that ultimately when the mind is right the technique just flows naturally. It is like a finger pointing to the moon. DO NOT focus on the finger, or you will miss all the heavenly glory!

I have some ideas on overcoming anxiety, but JEEZ THIS IS GETTING LONG!! :shock:

 
#16 ·
It was not my intent to say something that would put you in a defensive posture.

I agree with Ian.. if you can clear your mind and relax your horse will too. I also think you do not rub her head enough. Remember.. that is as much for YOU as for her. She stops moving her feet and lets you touch her with the whip, you drop the whip, take a neutral and relaxed stance (turn a bit sideways to the horse, do not look directly at her), rub her head and enjoy her being quiet. Slower movement on your part.. and deliberate movement will also help.

The thing I see watching you working is that you show tension and the horse is a mirror of that. Relax.

I think that when she puts her shoulder into you, she is not acting aggressive.. she is actually being defensive (and the two things CAN look similar). If you want her shoulder out, point the whip at her shoulder. She is nervous about the whip (most horses are) and would likely step away if you did this.

I also think before you go to work with the horse stop and visualize what you are going to accomplish today. Then visualize the smallest step the horse can make toward that goal and when she takes that smallest step, visualize how you are going to clearly remove pressure and how both of you will relax.

What I have found (and you may know this) is that when you are working a horse like this one from the ground you spend more time working with relaxation than you do actually doing things. The relaxation (head rubbing, body rubbing with your hand and so forth) teacghes hugely to the horse.

I think the first thing you need to work on is methodical, calm, slow movements around her and your body language and what that is conveying to the horse. Front stance, moving into her space or taking a step toward her, raised hand on the lead or whip, tension in your movments all convey to the horse that things are not safe. Every move you make when working with a horse is something the horse sees and reads so you need to make moves that really count.

And I did mean it when I said I like your horse. I really do. She is a good horse put together the right sort of way and I wish I had her to work. That was not meant to say you have it all wrong. It was meant as a compliment on her and how much I like her.
 
#17 ·
I know you mean it as a compliment I meant to thank you for it and I forgot. I actually unconsciously got defensive I serious was still in a sleepy haze when I replied at first. There is a big difference between my other responses and that one so I just mentally checked myself there. Cranky girl came out lol. She is a good horse and I love the way she is built and colored. I know this can work out I was tackling her the wrong way again. Learning a lot from this let me tell you.
 
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#23 ·
you might like this video. I like his explanation. I would, in time, work on having a hrose accept contact with the scary thing WHILE Walking calmly, but not until he was perfectly ok with the object while standing.

BOMB PROOFING part 1 - YouTube
OHHH I like that that is a good idea :). I want to do that with the whip tomorrow!
 
#21 ·
I see you watched a clinton anderson tv show :) what I noticed was most of the time when she moved you were pulling on the lead asking her to.. She needs more line. slack if you will , I only watched one video with you sacking her out with the lead and the whip. Your on the right track. Your mare is trying and so are you. Don't get frustrated...I also did not see a pushy mare. slow it down a bit, it will come.
 
#22 ·
Ok so I worked with desensitizing Joy and keeping everything calm and anxiety free. So I started by just rubbing her with my hands all over and waited for her to relax and stop the tail swishing. Then we took a break and just chilled. After that rubbed her with my hand and the whip I tried to remove the whip quickly when her tail stopped swishing then I would rub her and praise her. Just did this on both sides waited for signs of relaxing release. So should I keep this up as far as that goes? I think we are gonna just spend some time relaxing she has so much anxiety and it seems to be the majority of why we are having trouble communicating. Cause I don't want her to just withdraw into herself. This is some different territory for me I'll admit I've never had such a problem getting a horse to relax, plus our communication skills are lacking but were learning. I never have this problem with my other horses but I feel confident in what I am asking and getting their understanding is usually pretty immediate. But with Joy I find myself having a communication barrier and I lose confidence a bit and get frustrated and I think this is why i push and expect too much. So we're slowing down and getting in a relaxed state of mind the both of us =-). I'm going to make that whip no big thing and get the anxiety to melt away that is the current training goal. Thank you guys for the advice I really needed it. Also wanted to say since I slowed my silly self down she didn't crowd and push me today! Yay! Love to hear anymore more relaxing techniques you guys have. And as far as meeting Cherie I happily meet her if anytime. She seems like a great person to know in real life.
 
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#25 ·
Loved watching the video Ian. I love to see how your body language relaxes the horse.. you are not looking directy at him most of the time. You are sideways to him.. you ARE looking at hishind quarters, but your stance over all is sideways. As the session continues the horse becomes less concerned. Your "language" to the horse is completely non threatening and relaxed but persistent. Sort of like being a pest... and as the session continues the horse earn more lead.. more slack.

Love it.

Golly I miss training horses.

Oh and I like your music too. ;)
 
#26 ·
Thank you Ian I enjoyed your video! And I was already expecting the firing squad but I already accepted it was going to happen cause I needed some serious input and I can take constructive criticism. Like I said before I can always learn and I love training I honestly enjoy it. I love to learn new things I'm glad you gave me a video I learn better visually. I'm gonna work with pepper who I have tons of confidence with cause I want to watch the difference in how I act with him and how I act with Joy. That way I can work on having that same feeling when I'm with joy. I'm putting tons of thought and time into this.
 
#27 ·
Ok so I watched your video again and I really paid attention to your body placement, your focus, and the way you applied your pressure and release and how you desensitized the area around the horse. I also watched again on focused on the horses body language aswell. I'm in total sponge mode right now lol. I think I'll wait in putting a sack on the whip as just the whip is enough to give her anxiety but I really liked the way you did that great study materials :). I get so much enjoyment from learning about this I'm looking forward to becoming a better horse woman and trainer.
 
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#28 ·
Lots of good comments here. I don't disagree with how Ian is desensitizing his horse, but would like to point out that there are also other ways to do it as well. If you have a seriously reactive horse (as in, you lift the flag off the ground and they attempt to leave over the arena wall) then you do not have to start with waving the flag or rope or whatever around.

For some horses, you start with the flag hidden on your body and after you get close to them with it, you unfold it. Then you crinkle it a little and let them get used to that. Then you raise it in the air. Next you begin doing gentle motions, etc. and progress to where you can touch them with it all over and then finally wave it around on the end of a stick.

What is important is to know for each particular horse what is their level of anxiety where they can still learn, and where they will be forced into a violent attempt to escape because they truly feel they are in a life or death situation.
 
#29 ·
There is always more than one way to do anything. I just am trying to develope a way to advance and retreat with her and reduce her anxiety. It not that I need to copy exactly everything he does to a Tee. She is a very anxious horse and I didn't help much apparently I'm used to my chilled out gelding. Also when I buy myself horses I tend to get ones that are naturally more laid back as training is easier. My mom bought me Joy when I was 15 we fell in love with her at first sight she's gorgeous and beautifully built and she became my 4-h halter horse. After high school I didn't have as much time to invest with her especially as I got busy with my biology undergrad I had barely had enough time to keep Pepper in shape. Now that I'm out of college I have time to invest in her. And I want to do this right she is a great horse and has so much potential. And too nice to keep being wasted as a pasture ornament. I'd really like to learn western pleasure ans teach her to work cattle so we can do something fun like team penning. But I need to grow as a trainer to get her where I want her to be I realize that. I don't give up I'll see this through to the finish. So I need to study! :D
 
#30 ·
The only thing I don't understand from Ian's video is why walk persistantly toward the horse's hindquarter? If you want the horse to start being accepting of the flag, then why walk toward the hind, wether the hrose moves or not? it looks a bit like Ian is drivng the horse continually.
You can also walk away from the horse and have it follow you and the scary thing. In fact, having the horse follow the scary thing , which he soon comes to view as "chasing " it can be a first step to him being a lot braver. So you can have him follow a bit, then you turn and you are coming toward him . But I don't understand the value in moving continueally AT his hindquarters. Waht do you want the hrose to do? Stand there ? I can see that if you are approaching as if you were going to adjust something on the saddle, but the movement in that video seems a bit like driving the hind and I am wondering the purpose there.
 
#31 ·
Oh yeah, continually driving the horse is exactly what I'm doing there. I'll continue to move him around until the way he's moving changes from a reaction (fight or flight) into a response (showing understanding). I know he's there when he's no longer pulling on the rope and his entire expression visibly relaxes. The change I'm looking for in the horse is a mental change. The basic idea behind it is that I'm teaching him how to operate his body with a human being driving him forward from behind his shoulder (as I will when mounted) while simultaneously being guided by the reins (lead rope) and, at the same time accepting distracting stimulus (the flag) without coming apart at the seams. At the end of the day it's really just about my ability to survive riding him so I can live to ride another day.

I do also work on letting them stop and stand and relax. Actually that's the last thing I do just before putting them away. I'll give them a rub-down and let them completely relax in my presence before letting them go back to their friends. Really helps when you want to be able to CATCH them the next day. XD In this instance though, the very next thing I did after this session was ride this guy so the whole thing essentially amounts to his warm-up.
 
#35 · (Edited)
Ok so here something that I do with joy and my other horses that is kinda of a silly game but it does teach her awareness of what my body is doing. This is more me just kinda playing around with her it seems to be more of a relaxing exercise for the both of us. I normally do this with a halter and lead rope but I set her up with a new headstall since the other is currently broken and I was a little curious how she would work with a hackemore. So she does head toss when I tried to back her with it a time or two. I may have had the curb too tight or the asking of pressure in a different place might of been too much I tried to be light with my hand pressure as she is pretty sensitive. Need longer play time with hackemore in the saddle I didn't really try to do much with it lesson wise. But eventually I want her to back up when I walk backwards. I don't know if this is silly or not and i dont know if other people do something similar I started doing this when I was pretty young early teens as kinda of a way to play with them and pay attention to me.

http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/...4-BA44-0498E8149A7A-2025-0000026BE3A0D856.mp4
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#36 ·
Ok so here something that I do with joy and my other horses that is kinda of a silly game but it does teach her awareness of what my body is doing. This is more me just kinda playing around with her it seems to be more of a relaxing exercise for the both of us. I normally do this with a halter and lead rope but I set her up with a new headstall since the other is currently broken and I was a little curious how she would work with a hackemore. So she does head toss when I tried to back her with it a time or two. I may have had the curb too tight or the asking of pressure in a different place might of been too much I tried to be light with my hand pressure as she is pretty sensitive. Need longer play time with hackemore in the saddle I didn't really try to do much with it lesson wise. But eventually I want her to back up when I walk backwards. I don't know if this is silly or not and i dont know if other people do something similar I started doing this when I was pretty young early teens as kinda of a way to play with them and pay attention to me.

http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/...4-BA44-0498E8149A7A-2025-0000026BE3A0D856.mp4
Posted via Mobile Device
I think that you've got all the natural feel and ability you'll ever need to get good at this. Certain nuances of technique will come from experience and studying other people who're good. For example, I might not want my horse to follow me so physically closely as yours does, but on the other hand some things like that come down to a person's preferences of style. So it's all good! :thumbsup:
 
#38 ·
Ian, try asking her to move about in different ways, forward, back, side to side without losing the float in the rope. It's not easy at first as we have to be so aware of the rope that we're not going to pull the slack out of it. Getting the horse walking from standing might require a bit of ingenuity but once it starts coming together the feeling is awesome. To remove pressure I unhalter the horse and walk away for half a minute and admire the scenery and not think of the horse. The halter forces the horse to have a connection, I want him to want one.
 
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