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Warning, long: When is it time to get off the horse?

5K views 43 replies 22 participants last post by  christopher 
#1 ·
My question is specifically to dealing with an established problem horse.

So I am working on getting my Equine Canada certified coaching license (exam in a month, yikes!). Not saying the license is an end-all, be-all or anything, but it hopefully goes to show I am not a green rider. I also do some part time work for my coach, training green horses on the ground and under saddle, and also training some problem horses.

I have found the green horses are SOO much easier than a problem horse that comes in because they have been getting away with bad behaviors at home for years. But I find the more challenging ones teach you lots. So I've had horses that bolted under saddle, especially if outside, herd-bound/barn sour horses, rearing horses, one little bucking bronco who was kind of fun, but after I just rode it out for two rides she settled right down and is now a kids horse, never offering to buck again. All of these things dealt with fine.

I have heard different things from different trainers- some try to ride it out and some get off and go back to hard ground work when a horse is misbehaving. I have done both, but I'm a little fuzzy as to when to do which. Case in point:

So yesterday I took this mare out on a trail ride with a group of fairly beginner riders- I wasn't coaching, just along for an extra person. The mare I rode has been getting away with problems outside for ages, and came in for training. She is herd bound, will try to run back, spins, rears. Anyway after several weeks of training the issues resolved and she was good, beautiful under saddle, so calm and steady. Then her owner rode her again for a month or two, and yesterday was the first ride I had on her after that- she was horrible! She wouldn't stand still if we were waiting for the lead horses to cross a stream, was prancing around, then she backed herself into a tree stump prancing and got all upset about it, tried to bolt (she didn't, I didn't let her), she reared and got a crop to the head...anyway, I figured the group with me wasn't super experienced and I didn't want the other horses feeding off her, so I got off. The group went ahead without me, and she had to stay, and we did the trail on foot, not in visual or calling distance of the others. If she was being bad she got to back up on the trail going butt-first, which she did not appreciate so she calmed down quick. We got to the barn and she worked hard. Worked well on the ground and under saddle, but periodically if any other horse went by the arena, she'd throw a fit. Once they were gone it was fine, then if it happened again, she'd do it again. So I think we rode for over an hour, and the minute she made consistent progress once or twice I got off her. It was baby progress and I was not incredibly happy with it, but it was time.

Anyway, she is now in a separate pen by herself, learning to be away from other horses, but I felt like yesterday was a huge defeat! I definitely did not get off at a good training time even though it may have been safer...what are your opinions on riding it out vs getting off and demanding good ground behavior? She was perfect on the ground by the way...
 
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#3 ·
I think that each instance is going to be dictated by surroundings. For instance, you were on trail with a bunch of beginners who may or may not have been able to control their horses while you schooled yours. Safety for the group dictated that you get off the horse and work on the ground away from other riders. Once they were gone and I'd decided she had found her head, I might have tried to get back on, but YOU have to follow your gut on whether that's a good idea or not.

My rule of thumb when schooling or re-training a horse is: whenever I get an honest TRY from the horse, I will quit and let them think it over. Not necessarily for the rest of the day but for a couple of hours at least. My old trainer would say, "When she thinks it's a new training session is when it's time to start again.". So, after she had eaten or taken a nap or seen the farrier, anything that broke up the day from training/something else/training.
 
#4 ·
Agree wholeheartedly with DA, how you handle each individual situation will depend on the circumstances of each individual situation.

Sometimes you do have to make the sacrifice of losing a particular battle with a horse to either ensure your own safety or the safety of those around you. You can't win all the little battles, but so long as you win the war, that's all that really matters.
 
#5 ·
In my experience, ground work does not always transfer to under saddle work, but sometimes it is just more safe to get off. It's also a case of, if thing A doesn't work, then you have to try thing B if you want to make any progress. I think you might have made some progress since you said she did respond a little right before you called it a day. You rewarded her effort, however small. A horse is going to understand that.
 
#6 ·
Being with a group of beginners definitely reduces your options. I think you did the wisest thing. I did the same a couple years ago when riding a TWH with a couple kids who were on very nice horses. Just not worth getting the kids in a mess.

Yesterday wasn't a huge defeat, just a delayed opportunity for you and the horse.

So, the riders are safe, the horse is safe, you're safe... what are your plans for the horse? You may not know what type of handling she receives once away from your barn (welcome to training outside horses).

And, I wouldn't let this eat away at your confidence going into your coaching license. You kept everyone safe. That is generally the first priority in any riding situation.
 
#7 ·
I spent the better part of 50 years re-training spoiled horses. The methods I have come to use have evolved quite a bit over that span of time.

I started out just trying to get a little improvement and trying to find a good place to quit. I counted on each ride getting a little better and the horse finally deciding it was a lot easier to comply than refuse to do what was being asked. I found that using these methods avoided most out and out confrontations and fights, but many of the horses also went back to bad behavior as soon as they had their owner or another novice rider on them. They really had not given up the bad behavior -- they just knew they had to do what 'I' wanted. It did not carry over very well to other riders. I also found that any time the horse got excited or mad or upset, they went right back to the bad behavior. In other words, I really had not re-trained them at all. I reality, they had trained me how to get along with them.

The longer I took in spoiled horse, the more I came to realize that they had to 'want' to do the right thing. It had to be their choice to 'give it up'. I found out that I could make them give it up much more quickly when the wrong thing made them miserable and they gained nothing from it.

I also figured out that I was just spinning my wheels when I tried to train a horse that was mad, scared, upset, lonesome, frantic or ????? [This is what this horse was when you tried to make it stand and it reared, spun around and in general acted frantic.] A horse that is doing any of the above is in a 'reactive mode'.

Horses only learn when they are in a 'thinking or responding mode'. If a horse is in a reactive mode, it must be ridden or worked so hard or you must be so rough on it that it HAS to start thinking and responding or you have to let the horse fight itself until it decides to start thinking and responding. It is easier to let them fight themselves that for you to fight them.

I have retrained many horses that literally would have worked until they dropped or crippled themselves before they would have 'given up'. Hot-bloods like TBs or Arabians are the worst, but others can be just as bad.

I have found that it is much better to tie them up and leave them alone and let them paw and fuss and stomp and whinny until they give it up. Then, they are ready to listen. You can literally wear yourself out and accomplish absolutely nothing trying to turn one around and back one up and on and on and on until it settles down. The only thing you accomplish is to get them more frantic and rearing from trying to hold that negative energy still. They settle much more quickly when you do not give them YOU to fight with. Let them fight with a tree or other immovable object.

For this to work, the horse must be tied in a safe place well away from any other horses. I have had it take as long as 3 days -- tying one out from morning after being fed until evening when it was time to feed and close the barn up. I will offer them a drink mid-day and most will not take it. I have never had it hurt one and I have never had it fail to work. When the horse can be tied out and it just stands there and rests a hind leg, it is ready to train and learn.

Now, to the situation you were in: You could head off the other direction and take the horse off trail and let it scramble through the roughest footing you could get it into. This would get it thinking and not reacting. You could tie it up to a tree and let the others go on. [I always ride green horses with a halter and lead under their bridles. More than once I have just gotten off of a horse that got dangerous and tied the dummy to a tree for an hour or two. Next trail ride I will lead that horse a ways, tie is up and get it later. I might do that several times but you can bet I have gotten smart enough to NOT just go toe to toe and fight a horse.] I figure some way get the horse back into a responding and thinking mode without teaching it more bad habits from fighting it.

'Restraints' work very well to get horses back into a thinking mode.

Simply tying one up well away from the other horses is usually the only 'restraint' most herd-bound horses need.

Horse that are much more spoiled than that, respond very well to hobbles, sidelines and 4-way hobbles. Again, the horse will fight an inanimate object or himself for only a short time where he would fight a person for hours and very possibly win or badly hurt the person or himself. A horse in a reactive mode will hurt or sometimes kill himself. You make the process much safer and much easier when you set them up to fight themselves or an inanimate object.

You will find that re-training spoiled horses is not worth a penny if the horse does not completely give up the bad behavior.
 
#9 ·
Update!

Thank you so much for your reply everyone, and I would like to give you guys an update. I know when a horse gets themselves into a panic there is no learning to be done, and since their reactive side often overrides the thinking part, you essentially have to wait it out. Which is what I had to deal with this time.

As I mentioned, I rode this mare after we got back home until she started doing a bit better (so we have a big ball in the arena, and her owner said "she's always hated it", which meant that as she got close to it she rears, spins, loses her mind the same way she did on the trail. So my goal for the day was for her to push the ball with her legs several times without arguing. I would wait til she got out of her frenzy, then try again. She figured it out and did what we asked. We quit).

The next two days I worked with her on being away from the herd- I put her in a separate pen, fed facing away from the herd (she didn't eat for a day because she refused to turn away from the direction her friends were in, even though she can only periodically catch a glimpse). I also worked with her on some basics, lungeing, some ground respect. I figured we'd start at the beginning.

Yesterday I got on her in the arena, and we rode. She was great. Gave me one sass when she tried to trot off the second I hit the saddle- but she was corrected quickly and no more problem. Then we went outside with 2 other people. She led, she followed, she stayed between the two and walked beside them. One of the other horses threw a fit but she didn't feed off him at all, she was calm and super responsive, light on the bit. I was SO excited.

So I put her in a stall to get some food and water before I turned her out, everything was good. Then as I went to take her out, a little girl trying to ride needed a bit of help and I just tied *my* mare quickly to a post with a quick release tie to go over and help her. Now a little background information is needed. While working towards my license, I am working with two other trainers that are knowledgeable and certified, one of them trained in Europe. When outside horses come in we talk to and have a questionnaire for the owners to identify what kind of problems the horse is having. The owner told us that this mare (she is a 8 yr old OTTB) has never had any problems tying at all, so we weren't worried. And we use cross ties primarily in the barn, and she's never given us any trouble. But my guess is that she has always used cross ties at home (I know the place) and has never been trained to be tied anywhere else. Because I tied her, and the second I turned my back she pulled back, and just LOST it all over again. Luckily the little girl was in the fenced indoor arena and the only other people there were myself and one of the other trainers. So she threw her head so hard she broke the first halter. So we figured we can't let her learn that she can pull and be free, so she was tied up again and we just waited with her. She would pull, process, pull. And go forth. So when she was processing we tried to go over to her and praise her, but she wouldn't let you near her. She tried to strike and a quick three crops to the chest stopped that, but she wouldn't stop pulling. She yanked so hard she landed herself on her butt and put extra pressure on her face. We made her get up by giving her a tap on the butt for incentive, and she did.

So we weren't trying to meddle per se, and we were trying to let her figure out that standing still wasn't putting any pressure on her and it was really just the simplest way, but we couldn't leave her alone to figure it out either- on the third blowout she yanked on the rope, put some pressure on the halter and tried to lie down and just give up. We had scissors and a knife on hand and immediately cut her lose so she wouldn't choke, and she was fine.

She would come down and process for a few minutes, and then fight again. I don't know WHERE her thinking side was, but nowhere to be seen. Anyway. This lasted for over 4 hours! We were done at 1 am.... Then she stood. Still. And stood some more. And then we gave her a bath and some food.

And so now my next question is...what would you guys have done? I mean at one point I felt it was dangerous to her to continue because she was just trying to lay down and give up, and had we not been prepared with scissors and a knife she would have choked herself. And on the other hand, this was SUPER dangerous behavior and it would be a hazard to any of her future handlers if she was let to get away with this kind of behavior without dealing with it. But I wondered how you pick and choose your battles like that? Like I said, I have had lots of stubborn and green horses and sometimes both, but I've never seen one like this.

The sad thing is, she really is a smart, beautiful mare and she is friendly and goes well under saddle, she has beautiful movement and is responsive to a rider. But it's like somewhere along the way, probably when she was trained at the track or trained afterward, a critical step got missed in her training that led to these kinds of problems. And she has been allowed to get away with this kind of behavior, having led to her owner not being confident around her, and letting her get away with even more behavior.

It makes me so sad :(
 
#12 ·
Thank you so much for your reply everyone, and I would like to give you guys an update. I know when a horse gets themselves into a panic there is no learning to be done, and since their reactive side often overrides the thinking part, you essentially have to wait it out. Which is what I had to deal with this time.

As I mentioned, I rode this mare after we got back home until she started doing a bit better (so we have a big ball in the arena, and her owner said "she's always hated it", which meant that as she got close to it she rears, spins, loses her mind the same way she did on the trail. So my goal for the day was for her to push the ball with her legs several times without arguing. I would wait til she got out of her frenzy, then try again. She figured it out and did what we asked. We quit).

The next two days I worked with her on being away from the herd- I put her in a separate pen, fed facing away from the herd (she didn't eat for a day because she refused to turn away from the direction her friends were in, even though she can only periodically catch a glimpse). I also worked with her on some basics, lungeing, some ground respect. I figured we'd start at the beginning.

Yesterday I got on her in the arena, and we rode. She was great. Gave me one sass when she tried to trot off the second I hit the saddle- but she was corrected quickly and no more problem. Then we went outside with 2 other people. She led, she followed, she stayed between the two and walked beside them. One of the other horses threw a fit but she didn't feed off him at all, she was calm and super responsive, light on the bit. I was SO excited.

So I put her in a stall to get some food and water before I turned her out, everything was good. Then as I went to take her out, a little girl trying to ride needed a bit of help and I just tied *my* mare quickly to a post with a quick release tie to go over and help her. Now a little background information is needed. While working towards my license, I am working with two other trainers that are knowledgeable and certified, one of them trained in Europe. When outside horses come in we talk to and have a questionnaire for the owners to identify what kind of problems the horse is having. The owner told us that this mare (she is a 8 yr old OTTB) has never had any problems tying at all, so we weren't worried. And we use cross ties primarily in the barn, and she's never given us any trouble. But my guess is that she has always used cross ties at home (I know the place) and has never been trained to be tied anywhere else. Because I tied her, and the second I turned my back she pulled back, and just LOST it all over again. Luckily the little girl was in the fenced indoor arena and the only other people there were myself and one of the other trainers. So she threw her head so hard she broke the first halter. So we figured we can't let her learn that she can pull and be free, so she was tied up again and we just waited with her. She would pull, process, pull. And go forth. So when she was processing we tried to go over to her and praise her, but she wouldn't let you near her. She tried to strike and a quick three crops to the chest stopped that, but she wouldn't stop pulling. She yanked so hard she landed herself on her butt and put extra pressure on her face. We made her get up by giving her a tap on the butt for incentive, and she did.

So we weren't trying to meddle per se, and we were trying to let her figure out that standing still wasn't putting any pressure on her and it was really just the simplest way, but we couldn't leave her alone to figure it out either- on the third blowout she yanked on the rope, put some pressure on the halter and tried to lie down and just give up. We had scissors and a knife on hand and immediately cut her lose so she wouldn't choke, and she was fine.

She would come down and process for a few minutes, and then fight again. I don't know WHERE her thinking side was, but nowhere to be seen. Anyway. This lasted for over 4 hours! We were done at 1 am.... Then she stood. Still. And stood some more. And then we gave her a bath and some food.

And so now my next question is...what would you guys have done? I mean at one point I felt it was dangerous to her to continue because she was just trying to lay down and give up, and had we not been prepared with scissors and a knife she would have choked herself. And on the other hand, this was SUPER dangerous behavior and it would be a hazard to any of her future handlers if she was let to get away with this kind of behavior without dealing with it. But I wondered how you pick and choose your battles like that? Like I said, I have had lots of stubborn and green horses and sometimes both, but I've never seen one like this.

The sad thing is, she really is a smart, beautiful mare and she is friendly and goes well under saddle, she has beautiful movement and is responsive to a rider. But it's like somewhere along the way, probably when she was trained at the track or trained afterward, a critical step got missed in her training that led to these kinds of problems. And she has been allowed to get away with this kind of behavior, having led to her owner not being confident around her, and letting her get away with even more behavior.

It makes me so sad :(

Honestly.. I would not have tied her off to help the little girl. Your entire session with this horse was to have her focus on you, and you assumed she'd be fine tied without really anything to focus on.

Do not make that assumption again. I would have told the girl hang on, put the horse back in the stall (or back out) and then went back to help the girl. Imagine if her horse fed off of the horse you were working with, and they both freaked out. That would have put the little girl in danger as well.

With a horse with these types of blank mind do-what-I-want attitudes, you should not assume anything that you were told before was true and you should treat them with clear communication and break everything down just as you were doing with her fears and with her behavior on the trail.

Now that this horse has learned they can break halters.. it will be a very long process to undo that habit. Believe me, my horse did it.

Also the horse may need her neck/throatlatch area looked at by a chiro because injuries to that area occur when a horse pulls back with a halter on.

I guess the gist of my post is: Never assume anything... always set the horse up to succeed.. not to get into a dangerous situation.
 
#10 ·
As an edit, I also volunteer at a horse rescue organization on the side, and I have seen some disheartening stuff. I help train and do groundwork with horses that will later go up for adoption, and I have to say I have never seen a horse this stuck... even in the most severe abuse cases.
 
#11 ·
I would have done as you did. The only thing I might have done differently would have been to have a more elastic type of rope or attachment, so she could feel some give. In her case, I don't know that it would have helped though.

Now, to reinforce the tying and standing, I would let her spend several days tied to a "patience pole". She'd go out right after breakfast, have a hay net and water there, and go in at dinner. She'd yell, fuss, pull, paw, dig and scream, but she would stand there for the entire day. And the next and the next and the next until she learns to stand until someone releases her, without drama and without acting out in any way.

I had a mare who, while not under saddle, still had those "check out" moments. My summation of her was that when she got scared, if you could catch her early and get her to calm down you might save the situation. If not, she fed on herself to such an extent that it was Lights not on, Nobody home and a Tornado is spinnin' in the basement. I sold her to someone who professed to like "emotional" horses, with full disclosure. I don't miss her.
 
#13 ·
I think you made 2 mistakes:

First --You tied her too close to where there was activity and other horses and handlers. I think you should have said something like,"I am really in a bad spot here with this really goofy horse. Let go put her up or tie her somewhere and I will be right back to help you."

Second -- Don't ever put a halter on her head that can break. Only tie this idiot with a new knotted rope halter and a really good 15' lead with a 'twist style' quick release snap.

Hint -- I use a 15 foot lead-rope tied solidly to the halter with a bowline or honda knot that I can get out. I run the lead-rope THROUGH my tie ring (located 6 feet above the ground) and tie it off 8 feet from where the horse's head is.

I don't want to waste lead ropes by cutting them unless the horse is going to die and this way, I don't even have to do that,

I don't want horses to learn they can break a halter or that I will cut a rope and release them at exactly the wrong time. [Pressure should be released when they do the right thing and not the wrong thing.]

On the rare occasion that I have to release a horse that cannot get up, I wait until it actually chokes and their tongue turns blue. I just sic the dog on them or spank their butt while they are down throwing their tantrum and most will get up and not find throwing themselves to be a good thing that is rewarded. Cutting a rope on a horse that has thrown that big a tantrum is the ultimate bad reward at a bad time. When one 'sulls' and its tongue turns blus, you HAVE to cut the rope. I have never had one injure its neck when they are tied higher than their withers.

My favorite place to tie a spoiled horse is to a rope hanging down from a big tree limb. Be sure it has a good swivel in the rope or at the halter.

Over the years, I have just tried every way there is to get them back to thinking and responding and I honestly have not found anything else that works once they 'check out' and just go into tantrum throwing 'self destruct' mode. If what you do does not help the training process and just keeps happening over and over, you have not 'fixed' the horse and it will never be safe to sell or put in the hands of another rider. The horse will get them hurt or killed. Most of the outside horses that I have taken in that were this bad or were mean and aggressive were set to be sold to get rid of them (they would have gone to the slaughter buyer) or they were set to be put down. Quite frankly, there is nothing to lose in this situation with this kind of fit throwing idiot. They are too just dangerous to move on to a new owner.
 
#14 ·
Thanks to all of you for your comments. I really appreciate you sharing your knowledge.

So the second she threw her fit I knew I made a rookie mistake tying her instead of just taking the extra 5-10 and taking her out properly. I should have just told the little girl to dismount and hold her horse until I got back. ESPECIALLY since this mare did so well at our ride that day and now this... I've been kicking myself ever since.

Also good point about not taking anyone's word for it. That will really teach me, and I guess better now than in 10 years.

I was, and I am, just SOO frustrated that she broke the first halter and even more frustrated that I had to cut the second. I totally get that it was pressure released at the wrong time, but I didn't want to kill this mare! And she would NOT get up even with her butt being cropped, I don't know what got into her. Which is why we worked until 1 am because we refused to give up now that she had got lose. And even though it took longer, she did stand at the end, it was just a harder battle.

So here's what I've done since: yesterday I cleared all the pokey branches below 8 feet on this great big tree we have in the back of the farm, where nobody rides and there are no horses being kept. I also cleared the ground around it. I went to the tack store and I bought some supplies like a longer lead rope and an ideal halter for tying. Thank you for tips on how to tie it up a bit better, hopefully this will help. I also got a tie ring and installed it at a tying post as a second option.

I think horses are more resilient than I give them credit for, but because I haven't seen many horses throw themselves down like that...this morning the vet came by to float a few horses and I had her checked out to make sure she was alright. And today in an hour or so I am going to tie her to that tree and there she will stand until either she learns how to tie or the world ends.... hehehe oh and I also got a 100 training exercises book so I can sit and read about 300 meters away from the tree and keep an eye on her...should be a good day...
 
#15 ·
First recommendation I'll make is: Quit kicking yourself. It's over, and today is a new day. That's how the horse thinks. Kicking yourself isn't going to train her and it's distracting for you.

The rest of your post sounds like you have a good plan. Just be ready for her to short circuit again, maybe over the same thing, maybe over something else.

The mare I had would literally forget you were there, walk over the top of you and then looks surprised to find you there. Then she'd get upset over something utterly routine. I will never forget the day I learned to really appreciate a 16 X 16 stall. She got blanketed at night, unblanketed and a sheet put on in the morning and then out for turn out for a few hours. One night I was there when she got blanketed and, God only knows why, she blew it and as I was walking from the back of her stall to the front, she had a complete melt down over being blanketed. If she had been in a 12 X 12 stall, I'd have ended up in the next stall over. She let those hind feet fly and I was able to get clear because of the size of that stall. No clue why she lost it so bad, she just ......had a maggot in her brain or something. One day she flipped out in the wash rack and threw herself down with all 4 feet in the air. No reason, she wasn't even being bathed.

Just never, ever trust this horse and always be on your guard with her.
 
#22 ·
Update

So it is now 4 training sessions later.

The first day, I brought my lead rope and new tying halter to a tree far away from everything, no horses or people nearby. I tied her up and had to get out of the way FAST. She threw a massive fit, reared, pawed, screamed, pulled by bracing all four legs against the ground. It was straight out of a cartoon. She got herself some nice halter burns from pulling so hard and everything. And then she magically got free without breaking anything (I was watching). Turned out because the halter was new it stretched a bit and she had pulled so much- anyway I was frustrated but she went right back to the tree, this time I made it tighter than I normally would, and I attached a second rope to the tree, I really couldn't afford her getting loose anymore. Also, I spoke to the trainer before me, and turns out the reason she doesn't know how to tie was because she kept breaking everything, so they quit (I wish people knew that quitting is worse than not training them at all...).
Fast forward a few hours of battling a tree, trying to flip herself and getting back up, and she starts to stand nicely. For about 20 minutes at a time. Then she has another fit. And so on. Then finally she stood for 30 minutes and was pretty much sleeping at the tree, I went to untie her and she lost it when she saw me coming. So I turned right back around and left her there (I was hidden behind a shed a ways away just watching her). The next time I went to untie her after she stood nicely, she was quite respectful. So she got her supper and then went to join her friends.

The next day, she got tied to a different tree (wanted to make sure she can stand everywhere, not just at one spot). This time she only fought for about 40 minutes then gave straight up. We took her inside for a hose-down (she loves them), then on the way out she pulled back and threw her head as we went to grab the halter. So she got tied again for a while. Until she was good. And then went outside.

The third day, she stood pretty well. Twice she started to pull back and went to fight and then it was like she remembered it was useless anyway.

Since then I've been bringing her in to stand in the barn by herself with no horses around, and she has been good about it. Usually she will call once when she first stands, but then nothing. I think though that with her it is going to be a few weeks of a process- she has been getting away with it for so many years that she will still show signs of fighting when you tie her at first, and I need her to stand still from the get go, I am not willing to compromise here.

Also found another thing she is just horrible about- syringes! We went to de-worm everyone after the first day of tying, and she- AGAIN- threw a fit. I think part of it related back to the tying problem, we tried to hold her head down to put the syringe in her mouth and she wouldn't take it. So she was tied again. So I bought a gallon of apple juice and every day we tie her up she also gets syringe trained at the same time. That seems to be improving as her tying gets better also.


Anyway, things are going a bit better. Like I said, this is going to be a way longer process than teaching a green horse how to tie- since people have attempted it in the past and then just let her get away with things... But the progress in the last four days makes me optimistic that there is still hope for her, just that I will need to spend more time on her than I normally would. And be certain that I am never letting her get away with ANYTHING AT ALL.

Curiously enough, since 5 days ago, she has gone from herd bound on the far end of the pasture to waiting at the gate for me with nickers to get her every time I'm out and doing something. She even waits at the gate area when all her friends are away doing other things. It boggles the mind since I feel like all the training sessions have been less than ideal and in some instances downright insane, and yet she seems to look forward to coming with me....silly mare...
 
#24 ·
Congratulations!!!! You are proving exactly what I have tried to tell people over and over but most of them have not listened. You cure herd-bound behavior and they love you for it --- they really do.

People, I've tried and tried to explain that this is how the equine mind works. When you tie them up, their herd is much less important to them and you become much more significant in their lives. You prove to them that there is life --- a good life -- after separation, and they are going to get to go back to their herd anyway.

We had one take 3 full days, 8-10 hours each day before she gave it up. She went on to become a top cutting horse winning a lot of NCHA money. Before that, she could not be shown because she would whinny in a class. She could not be hauled unless you took her buddy with her. She went from an idiot to a op horse.

This is exactly why we tie every horse up away from others before we do any training on them. You are training a pleasantly different horse that learns 100X better and learns to love and depend on you in the process.
 
#25 ·
Wow, this is so interesting! Thank you for keeping us updated.

I'm curious—does she put her head down nicely when you ask (with poll pressure or pulling down on the halter, etc)?
 
#26 ·
I spent a lot of time doing what you did only to find the horse promptly reverted when the owner took it back. Big lesson learned. By all means stick with the horse if you feel confident you can ride it out, but do it on condition the owner takes half a dozen rides/lessons before taking the horse home. If you don't, you will get a bad reputation, that you didn't retrain the horse. The owner has to be part of the package.
 
#27 ·
Yes, like I said, I'm cautiously optimistic. She is getting much better and the training sessions have become much shorter- she started at 4-5 hours a day...

Little Jane, she was a little here and there. If she was feeling good that day, she would lower her head, if something caught her attention or she was feeling sassy- well good luck. Now, at the end of every training session we make her lower her head politely a good 10 times, if she doesn't throw her head at all she can go, if she does, she ties where she can't throw her head in the air. I am told by a friend who knows OTTBs this all goes back to not ever being taught to tie properly.

Saddlebag, good point. The policy here with us is that we start training on our own but the owner needs to be present and riding their horse during the latter portion of the training sessions before they go home. Train the horse train the owner kind of scenario. Of course what happens to the horse after it goes home can be another story- some horses do revert, but usually the owner either makes excuses or knows they let them get away with things. It also helps that we reserve the right to take photos and video when we are training, and so having proof the horse was behaving when they were here usually stops the owner from claiming their horse wasn't trained. This particular owner is a lifelong horse person but has always bought well trained kid broke horses until this mare, and so she knows she didn't have the energy to work with her by herself.

That being said I am disillusioned with the prospect of sending horses home to revert back to bad habits, and I've seen it happen several times already. But the way I look at it, if there is just one little thing the horse takes away from here that makes them better, then maybe it wasn't all for not. And to be fair, making the owner be present and riding their horse helps a lot. We try to tell them that they are a trainer every time they interact with their horse whether they realize it or not. There has been once or twice where the owner still didn't have the courage to ride their horse after it was trained and was perfectly good for us. In cases like those, we recommended that they sell their horse to an advanced rider and buy a beginner broke horse. No use begging for an accident to happen.
 
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