Which way would you circle? - Page 2

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Which way would you circle?

This is a discussion on Which way would you circle? within the Horse Training forums, part of the Training Horses category

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    08-12-2011, 01:07 PM
Originally Posted by iridehorses    
IMO, never get off the horse. I don't tolerate a refusal - next time it can come when it could create a real problem.
I agree. Unless something dangerous is coming (like horse bucks violently or rears than a GOOD ground work would be a way to go) getting off is letting the horse win this round (in horse's mind) IMHO.
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    08-12-2011, 01:48 PM
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There is a reason the horse doesn't want to go right. Most likely, he is so unbalanced he believes he will fall if he tries. I would STILL go right. However, I would go in a much bigger circle where he would have an easier time balancing. And, I would keep the speed much slower. I would use this big easy circle to tackle his lack of proper bend so that he can find his balance. Then, I would slowly tighten the circle still working hard on maintaining the proper bend/balance until he could COMFORTABLY do the circles I want.

To tie the head around does nothing to teach a horse balance, IMO. It is simply using brute force for little purpose. Lunging may help, but many horses lose their ability to bend and balance because of the added weight of the rider.

Make the job easier and give the horse better tools to improve themselves is how I would do it.
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    08-12-2011, 02:43 PM
Thanks all! Most of these answers seem to go with the basic response I was getting before. I just want to clarify and say that It really is a hypothetical question and I am not having this problem with a horse. I just wanted to have an intelectual chat about horse training why's and how's.

I understand the issue of needing the horse to respond to the cue for right, however is my theory of going left flawed? I have been told that it is because the horse gets it's way, and is enforcing a negative response.

However part of the going left is also circling hard for an extended time.
Similar to techniques used to get a horse to load in a trailer. --Work the horse outside of the trailer for a long time, make him work and actually think about how he is moving, then ask to go in the trailer, if he does reward by letting him stop working. Because horses want to take "the easy way" out of most things, you are teaching the horse that it is easier to do as he is asked and load in the trailer, instead of working hard on the outside.

Would this same principal not work when correcting a horse by doing circles? ---
When the horse doesn't turn right, you instead go left but ask for a large number of circles doing different exercises (all to the left) to make the horse work. After doing that again ask for the right turn, if he does turn you let him go back to a straight walk as a reward for doing the correct behavior and not having to work so hard again. If he refuses again, you go back to the other direction and work even more. The horse will see this as "Do the behavior cued for, and you work less. Do something else and work more."

Is this thought process incorrect? Or is it simply more common to force a horse go right instead?
    08-12-2011, 02:51 PM
If a child is eating crayons,do you feed him more until he gets sick,or do you take them away from him?answercorrectly,cause it may be brute force.
    08-12-2011, 03:01 PM
The problem with working him hard to the left when he refuses right is that it only works if you can show him that right is the place where he gets relief. The only way that would work would be to work his ass off in a left circle and then let him relax in a right circle. However, if he is refusing to turn right, then he won't figure out the connection between refusal and the punishment and you run the risk of making him sour to left circles as well.
    08-12-2011, 03:12 PM
Originally Posted by rob    
if a child is eating crayons,do you feed him more until he gets sick,or do you take them away from him?answercorrectly,cause it may be brute force.
That's a very interesting comparison, however I don't see the relevance considering we are talking about horses here and not children -- also your example includes possibly causing bodily harm. Making a horse go in circles is very unlikely to hurt it.

You created a logical fallacy called "False analogy".
It adds nothing to the discussion.

But I will address the question you have given me -- In today's society it would be "correct" to take away the crayons. However in an earlier time in our civilization not to long ago, over-indulgence as a punishment was not uncommon. If a child was caught smoking cigarettes or drinking alcohol by a parent, said parent would force the child to smoke or drink until he/she became physically ill. This of course was a good initiative for the child to stop that behavior.

I am not against using force on a horse in order to bring about correct behavior, I am all for "punishment" and do not think the easy way out is always the best option. I simply want to know other peoples thoughts on other techniques of doing things. Wither or not a correction is plausible to use on specific cases, in particular.

(I'm not against spanking children either, however as I said earlier, that adds nothing to the conversation at hand.)

To Smrobs-- Thank you for addressing the "why not" of my idea. I understand your point. Without the connection between the punishment and cause, it really serves no point. I hadn't thought of it like that.
However, for the sake of argument. Do you think it would be possible to use the "circle-left" way correctly--correctly as in getting the horse to understand what you are asking?
I would guess however, that doing it in such a way would be a lengthy correction, and it might be easier or more effective to simply reinforce the turn right. Correct?
    08-12-2011, 03:25 PM
Im so sorry if you missed my point
    08-12-2011, 03:28 PM
Originally Posted by rob    
im so sorry if you missed my point
Maybe try saying it in a way that is relevant next time? It might work out better.
    08-12-2011, 03:36 PM
Dont give him his way going more lefts. If you can't pull his nose right and send him with left leg squeezed in him, then tie his head around to the right,eventuallyhe will give in to it
    08-12-2011, 03:38 PM
Originally Posted by rob    
dont give him his way going more lefts. If you can't pull his nose right and send him with left leg squeezed in him, then tie his head around to the right,eventuallyhe will give in to it

Thank you, that makes more sense to me.

circle, command, correction, cue, turn

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