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Western Pleasure??

7K views 49 replies 11 participants last post by  SaddleUp158 
#1 ·
Alright, most of you know about my horse Lizzy.
Well she's a great little mare with a wonderful jog. She's a great WP prospect. But as of now, I'm the only trainer she has, and I intend to train her to do everything I know how. But, I'm only fourteen and I just got out of barrel racing, so I don't quite know everything.

Well, Lizzy is coming along wonderfully. But here's my problem, she is amazing as long as we have draw reins on with the O-ring snaffle. Lopes wonderfully, jogs perfectly, walks, the whole nine yards, and the kicker, she carries her head where I want it. Now I know you all are probably thinking that I force her to carry herself like that, but I hold the reins as loose as physically possible, mind you, I will tighten up when necessary...Then as soon as she's in normal reins and an o-ring snaffle, it's good for the walk and jog...as long as I don't try to touch her mouth...once I go to correct anything, her head pops up..not high or anything but up that it's not right for show...she won't even consider putting her head down for the trot and the lope she's rushing and her head is in the air.

So, I put her in the correction bit for little work. I barely touch her with that because I really don't want her sour to that bit...So she jogs wonderfully in it, headset everything. Haven't tried trotting in it...But the lope, she carries herself...alright, but it could be better she has an alright speed, but could be slower and still maintain impulsion and self carriage. But at the lope, her head is in the skies! I figure its her trying to hold herself to maintain the speed so I'm not too pushy with the headset quite just yet, but the thing is is eventually I have to teach her it and she doesn't quite get it... We don't use the correction bit even once a week... and I don't work her in a fenced in arena because I don't want her so dependent on the rails. But now it seems she's too dependent on the draw reins...

I've tried stopping and loping. Backing and loping. I don't use spurs. And she knows the head set, she will let me correct it at the stop and set her head, but at the jog or lope it's like I have to just let her do her thing..

I've also lunged her with her head tied down to help her transitions, but she's retarded for lunging lol.

Help?
 
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#4 ·
Draw reins, crank her nose to her chest and force her to do transitions like that. Thats what i did for Roman. Then gradually just jerk once or twice and her head will go down. But you have to do that alot. It fixed Roman when he did that. But remember, once she gets the gist of when i pull your head goes down, you do the whole pull and release thing again to help her self-carriage.
 
#5 ·
Personally I would not be using the draw reins as a primary rein! The reason she is so good in the draws and so bad without them is that she has learned to depend on them. Put her snaffle on with a direct rein, if you are dead set on using the draws put them on but don't use them except if needed for a correction, correct and immediately release so the draw has no contact. Speaking from experience, once YOU and the HORSE become dependent on the draw or martingale it is very difficult to wean both the horse and the rider away from them. She is most likely in a false frame and is just giving in to the draw rein, but once it is off she goes "hehe I am free!" Start off by pushing the mare up into the bridle. Your seat and legs should push her up and your hands will gently recycle the energy. Start off at the walk, work on circles, serpentines, transitions, once she is steady at the walk move up to a jog/trot. There should be NO jerking, yanking or putting in a severe bit just to get the head down. That is as much as I am going to touch on the correction bit at the moment.

How old is this mare and how much training has she had? I would suggest getting a trainer or at least taking lessons on her to help you out. Barrel racing and western pleasure are completely different.
 
#6 ·
You mentioned a few times that you are very careful not to touch her mouth while you are riding. That is what is causing your problems. I think that she has not learned to respond properly to your rein cues. In order to get her head where you want it, you are going to have to touch her mouth with those reins. You need to make contact with the bit, and hold that contact until she tucks her chin & then drops her head (you will be looking for her to drop from her withers so that her neck can flatten out but her chin still stays tucked). When she gives to the bit in this way, you should immediately release the contact. If she doesn't tuck her chin right away after applying contact, you may need to encourage her by pushing her into the bridle with your leg cues. Don't worry right now if she speeds up. Her only reward will come when she tucks her chin & drops from the withers.

Don't ever put the draw reins on again. I would guess that there are also other issues you will have to fix because of them (is she heavy on the forehand?). Some of the draw rein issues will be fixed if you go back to making appropriate contact with the bit.
 
#7 ·
wow... western pleasure is crazy isnt it? so many ways to ask for and get what you want!

I think you've been doing a terrific job with Lizzy and you've made tons of progress. She is still a baby, she's only 3 right? I agree with .delete on the over flexing, she isn't ready to just go w/ her head set on her own so you ask for a little more then you want and it's even ok to get a little arch in the neck during excersizing becuase when you drop her head for show, she'll ride with it where it needs to be. You are right on w/ the halting and backing and the collection. I agree with the overuse of draw reigns idea. I had to move mine from under the girth to the sides of the girth because I had poor Ri really on the forehand. I wouldnt worry about slowing her down too much too fast.

Have you tried canting w/ her for speed?
 
#8 ·
Yeah. We do A LOT of cantering now just because I want her to have the forward motion and then I slow her down and ask for the same frame and she does it perfectly with draw reins.

SaddleUp...I'm not USING the draw reins like stated above, they are just there. I'm not dependent on them, it's just like riding with regular split reins but I just have that contact when I need it..

Sorry I must have giving you a misconception GottaRide, I do touch her mouth but only when necessary, like when she's carrying herself correctly, I leave it. But whenever her head is high I apply pressure on the reins whether split or draw... Usually I see saw. But I want to get away from that considering whenever she has to neck rein you can't use two hands.

Whenever I ride with the direct reins and make contact with her mouth like you said, she just holds her head up and eventually acts up and refuses to set her head. That's why I decided to use the correction bit one day to get her used to it and because she sets her head automatically and when she doesn't, I touch her with the reins (pop them if you will) and then she usually sets her head. But thats only at the jog. It's like she either refuses to carry herself the right way or she is focusing on getting her hind end under her at the lope, she just sticks her head to the sky- but she's holding herself back from cantering when she does that...you get what I'm saying?

I think I've decided I'm going to just forget using draw reins for a while and work on starting her lope over..but I don't quite know how to do that because she seems so numb to the o-ring snaffle unless she has draw reins on..
 
#21 ·
Yeah. We do A LOT of cantering now just because I want her to have the forward motion and then I slow her down and ask for the same frame and she does it perfectly with draw reins.

SaddleUp...I'm not USING the draw reins like stated above, they are just there. I'm not dependent on them, it's just like riding with regular split reins but I just have that contact when I need it..

I think I've decided I'm going to just forget using draw reins for a while and work on starting her lope over..but I don't quite know how to do that because she seems so numb to the o-ring snaffle unless she has draw reins on..
I am sorry, I misunderstood you. That is good that you are not using them as I thought. Even though you are not using constant contact on them, she still has a dependence on them, knowing that she is not going to be able to put her head up sky high; therefore, she doesn't try when they are on, but does with just the split reins. I agree with getting rid of the draws like you have decided to do. If you do use them occasionally try also using your split reins at the same time. Use both sets of reins, your draw as your "curb" rein, only there if you need it, but your split reins are the ones you use the entire time.

I also agree with GottaRide and LauraB, good advice there.
 
#9 ·
Sorry for double posting..

I think one of my main problems is with my knee problem it's easier to have the security of the draw reins knowing that she WILL listen.

I don't know what I should be aiming for, the headset first or the slow lope first?
 
#10 ·
I don't know if I used the right word... I thought it was called canting. Like when you are cantering/loping but you are pushing the hind in to the center of the ring while keeping the front end on the rail? So you are cantering/loping at an angle? that will teach her to slow down... I'm not very good at it... someone else might be able to explain it better...

I don't know how to help you on headset, I'm too dependent on the draw reigns right now and too "naggy" w/ my reign contact... :( Good luck though... I'm very interested in the advice you get on this thread.
 
#16 ·
I don't know if I used the right word... I thought it was called canting. Like when you are cantering/loping but you are pushing the hind in to the center of the ring while keeping the front end on the rail? So you are cantering/loping at an angle? that will teach her to slow down... I'm not very good at it... someone else might be able to explain it better...

I don't know how to help you on headset, I'm too dependent on the draw reigns right now and too "naggy" w/ my reign contact... :( Good luck though... I'm very interested in the advice you get on this thread.
When loping a horses shoulders need to be up and there hip should be slightly in but this should not be used to slow a horse down, this is mearly the position that you want the horse to carry. If it is used to slow the horse down than the position is usually too over exagerated which is not a good thing to teach a horse. It is very unappealing to judges when they see a horse loping sideways down the rail.
 
#11 ·
Oh!
Okay FP!
I gotcha now.
Well whenever I work her in the arena I do do that, but since I work in a open field I attempt to do that but she only does it on the turns lol and yes, it works, but then as soon as we straighten out shes faster again...

Apparently I'm going to have to work her in the arena more:-| muddy muddy arena!

FP, maybe we should just cold turkey the draw reins together lol!
 
#14 ·
I bet they are... actually... mines probably gone backwards because of the weather... I'm lucky to ride him twice a week... I need a ring... (a real ring)... ugh!
 
#17 ·
I still stand by my original advice. The horse still does not know to give to the bit 100% of the time. The difficulty of this increases as you go up in gaits.

There is no need to be see-sawing, either. You will help the horse more if you learn a more effective way to use your hands. Ride her in a lot of circles, small circles about 15 -20 feet around. Ask for her to bend softly around the circle at whatever gait you are at (the size of the circle increases as you get into the faster gaits). At the same time ask for her chin to come in. The inside hand will be getting her to bend, and the outside hand will control her chin. She can't give her chin if she isn't bending. The bending needs to come first. Lateral flexion is the key to vertical flexion.

You are missing very important parts in your horse's training. Don't be jumping ahead by using the shank bit right now, and don't think about how she will have to be ridden eventually. She needs to be ridden a certain way right now to instill this training in her. As time goes on she will get much better and more "automatic", and the transition to the shank bit will be very smooth. She's not ready for that yet.
 
#20 ·
I still stand by my original advice. The horse still does not know to give to the bit 100% of the time. The difficulty of this increases as you go up in gaits.

There is no need to be see-sawing, either. You will help the horse more if you learn a more effective way to use your hands. Ride her in a lot of circles, small circles about 15 -20 feet around. Ask for her to bend softly around the circle at whatever gait you are at (the size of the circle increases as you get into the faster gaits). At the same time ask for her chin to come in. The inside hand will be getting her to bend, and the outside hand will control her chin. She can't give her chin if she isn't bending. The bending needs to come first. Lateral flexion is the key to vertical flexion.

You are missing very important parts in your horse's training. Don't be jumping ahead by using the shank bit right now, and don't think about how she will have to be ridden eventually. She needs to be ridden a certain way right now to instill this training in her. As time goes on she will get much better and more "automatic", and the transition to the shank bit will be very smooth. She's not ready for that yet.
Very nice! I agree.
 
#19 ·
Bending her in circles will eventually give you the chin tuck you want. Circles will teach her to flex each way once at a time. When she is ready and you ask for both sides at once she should tuck her chin and drop her head for you. Make sure you are doing a nice give and release when you are doing your circles. You will find that the circles will help her mouth feel nice and soft.
 
#22 ·
GottaRide and LauraB have good advice. You ideally want to be able to train your horse without all of the artificial aides, i.e. draw reins. Don't push her, she is young and you definitely do not want to be trying to fix a horse later on because she did not get a good foundation. Once she learns to give to the bit and becomes balanced, everything else will follow. It becomes natural when the horse is trained properly and using itself correctly.
 
#24 ·
Oh ehh. I trained Roman with his nose cranked to his chest, yes we depended on draw reins at first because i thought they where a wonderful invention that fixed everything. I tell you this all the time Harleekins that headset first, because without the headset it don't matter how slow your going. Headset is everything, atleast where we show idk about anywhere else. But speed comes with time. Like Roman flys now, he doesn't lope because i took him away fromt he showring for winter, but i will fix it when summer comes around butblahblahblah im getting off subject. I don't think alot of bending will help, i personally HATE bending my horses alot, i do it some because i know its good for them but look at Leon, how his head will be turned to the rail and he can still go in a straight line. Cory has trouble steering him because Mike did too much bending. Im not dissing bending, its all good and fun, its just too much is too much, plus it takes forever. Keep tying her head down, only tie it down tighter, you should see how tight i have Roman, his nose is practially touching his chest, but he evens out after a few laps. Keep doing what your doing.
 
#30 ·
"Back to Front" is the perfect phrase SaddleUp158. Headset is one of the final steps to making a pleasure horse and you will discover that when everything else is right the horse's headset will come naturally. It is very hard to tell someone in words what to do, it would be better if someone could show you what to do Harlee. It is something that needs to be experienced. If you could scrape up the funds for a trainer I know the perfect one to teach you this. He is in Ohio, he has done all of the professional training on my horse. i started training with him 8 years ago. He is HONEST, an excellent teacher, and has trained some world class horses. He is good enough that I ignore the trainers in my area and haul my horse 5 1/2 hours to him. PM me if you want his name and number. PS, I have never once seen him use drawreins!
 
#47 ·
"Back to Front" is the perfect phrase SaddleUp158. Headset is one of the final steps to making a pleasure horse and you will discover that when everything else is right the horse's headset will come naturally. It is very hard to tell someone in words what to do, it would be better if someone could show you what to do Harlee. It is something that needs to be experienced. If you could scrape up the funds for a trainer I know the perfect one to teach you this. He is in Ohio, he has done all of the professional training on my horse. i started training with him 8 years ago. He is HONEST, an excellent teacher, and has trained some world class horses. He is good enough that I ignore the trainers in my area and haul my horse 5 1/2 hours to him. PM me if you want his name and number. PS, I have never once seen him use drawreins!
I wish I lived close to Ohio. There arent alot of trainers around here that I like. Theres only one that I like, but I only like how his reining horses turn out.
 
#31 ·
I don't know how to really explain any better either, but what Delete has said goes against any practical training. She may like skipping steps and having a horse moving improperly with holes in its foundation, but it doesn't make a well trained, good horse.

Just an example, a friend of mine just bought a $7000 pleasure horse. She is hauling to a trainer once a week to help her fix his poor training. The trainer started at the head, got the headset that she wanted, then slowed him on down. Poor horse is so incredibly stiff, terrified to move out, and is missing half of his basic training.

Take the advice of the majority, work on getting you horse to use itself correctly, I promise, the rest will follow. If you can't send the horse to a trainer, or even go ride with one once a week or something, at least save up money and do one session. Then you will be able to ask tons of questions and be in a much better spot than you are now. Get some books, learn about dressage- it is the basis to all riding. Follow the training methods they use for classical dressage and you will end up with an amazing horse with a great foundation that uses itself properly. I wish you luck with your mare, and hope that you are able to learn about training horses the proper way. I know how it is starting out on your own, and not knowing a lot. I was there, the difference- I went to trainers, not to ride, just for advice. I read a ton of books. I watched trainers at shows work their young horses. It can be done, you just have to find the right people to help you get to where you want to be.
 
#32 ·
My experience (I'm not trying to be mean):

I've worked with a trainer for many years and he tied horses heads down by tying the reins through the stirrups and behind the cantle. It MADE the horse hold his head right. At first they'd lean into the bit, but eventually they got smart and put some slack in the rope.

BUT, they didn't learn to soften up. They learned: Do this cus it hurts less. Their mouths weren't soft and they weren't flexing correctly, it was artificial, but it was the "look" that is wanted. However, when you have the look AND feel it works much better and the horse is a lot better to ride and does better at competition (I've learned this too).

To get the "feel" of lightness AND the look I use mostly Clinton Anderson's technique. You hold both reins at a stand still. preferably one a little tighter than the other because then it is harder to brace against the bit. And the instant you feel the neck and lower jaw release you drop the reins. You keep doing this until she fully understands and then you can get her to hold it for longer periods of time. And then get her to do it when you are walking then trotting then loping and backing. This also REALLY helps get the nice rounded back
 
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