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Western vs. English? Muy confused...

This is a discussion on Western vs. English? Muy confused... within the Horse Training forums, part of the Training Horses category

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        05-11-2014, 09:35 PM
      #21
    Trained
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by NBEventer    

    Your ignorance is very very very scary.
    I want to say so much, but this will cover it nicely.

    OP, there are some very knowledgeable posters giving you advice, and one who seems hell bent on getting you hurt....take care.
         
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        05-11-2014, 11:01 PM
      #22
    Yearling
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by bbsmfg3    

    The very first thing a horse does when it gets agitated is start chewing on the bit.
    How can a horse feel agitated when in another thread you claim horses are incapable of feelings/emotions? And how does a horse learn anything from a tight noseband when it has been clearly demonstrated that horses learn from the RELEASE of pressure? How about just not getting your horse agitated in the first place? A good horseman would find the cause of the agitation and help his horse get through it. Not strap more gadgets on to stop an undesirable behavior.
         
        05-12-2014, 12:35 AM
      #23
    Foal
    I am so grateful to all of you for taking the time to clarify this mess for me. Thank you so very much. I will try to post any updates after tomorrow's lesson.

    Dreamcatcher, I understand completely what you're saying and agree. Stay the course or bail, don't sit on the [rather uncomfortable] rail, fer cryin' out loud.

    Wish me luck - or at least a clear head! And thank all of you, again. See you on the forums.
    bsms and DanielDauphin like this.
         
        05-12-2014, 02:27 AM
      #24
    Super Moderator
    First of all, I am a bit confused, OP. You say you have these two diferent women offereing advice. Which one is saying you should use a Kimberwick? Which a training fork? And did they explain why?

    English riders ride with more contact becuase for one thing, the bit leverage to it is one to one, while the shanked bits used in traditional western riding, is magnified. This means that a very small amount of "feel" on a western rein will bring more sensation to the horse , so you , in theory, can give signals to stop, turn, flex, etcetera, with just a slight lift of the looping western rein. And neck reining does not involve contact to the mouth at all.

    So, that is one reason why one style rides the way it does as opposed to the other. Also, the archetypal cowboy , riding in loose reins with a curb bit, maybe with a high ported curb, has gone through the process of training the horse to that bit, which involves either using a bosal or a snaffle, then moving on to the neck reining with a curb.

    In any case, even riding on more contact does not mean you "hang" on the horse's mouth, or at least, you shouldnt. You have to learn to have a following contact. You stay in close and moving communication with the horse. It's really a wonderful way to ride, once it becomes second nature to you.

    I would personally give the first trainer a bit more time. If you want to open your vista more.

    Edit: reread this post and realized I had left out some words , so it didnt make sense. My bad. Put in words.
         
        05-12-2014, 03:21 AM
      #25
    Yearling
    Please don't tighten a caveson really tight. That's horrible, and a good way to hurt your horses face.
    Posted via Mobile Device
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        05-12-2014, 07:26 AM
      #26
    Started
    If possible I would check out a few different instructors, go see how they teach their students. I wouldn't change equipment unless it was explained specifically as to why! Then I'd make the instructor get on the horse and demonstrate. Maybe take a lesson on the instructor's horse first to see how he/she teaches. Don't stay with someone that you don't like or wants to put all sorts of devices on your horse. Find someone to help you build your confidence. I ride my "crazy" Arabians in a snaffle or French link and they do excellent.
         
        05-12-2014, 08:27 AM
      #27
    Super Moderator
    Let me throw out a totally different view from someone who used to show and win in both hunt seat and stock horse classes on the same horses who could also show 2nd level dressage. Any horse we now train will ride either hunt seat or western and transition very quickly into dressage.

    There is more difference between different disciplines in western riding than there is between hunt seat, dressage and western. Reiners ride totally different than ropers -- who ride totally different than barrel racers -- who ride totally different than cutters -- who wide totally different than western pleasure riders who often times sit back so far they would fall off of a horse that spooked and jumped from some 'booger'.

    Any horse trained by a reining trained western trainer will work on a contact and give to the bit -- any bit. Their horses will ride in a snaffle or a long shanked curb or anything in between. Many are now trained to such an extreme degree, that they instantly fall behind vertical when the reins are just 'picked up'. They will ride with as much contact as any dressage horse. These horses will move better off of a leg than most English ridden horses. They are more sensitive to leg than many dressage horses. Their entire training regimen is gear toward doing all of this with self carriage (missing completely in many English ridden horses) and doing what the rider wants on a loose rein. The are not trained on a loose rein. They are trained to give to the bit and maintain that way of going when the rein pressure is not there.

    Most ropers, on the other hand, put so little value on 'giving' to the bit, that without a tie-down, bit pressure only makes their horses stargaze and check out the weather 'up there'. Their horses are not taught good head position and will not move laterally around or off of a leg. A roper can turn a horse with a reining background into a roping horse very quickly. It would take longer for a reiner to make a reining horse out of a roping horse than to start one from scratch -- much longer.

    Soooo -- you have to decide what kind of horse you want to ride. If you, personally, place a high value on having a horse that drops its head and tucks its chin when you have to take a firm contact because things may not be going exactly right, and rides on a loose rein the rest of the time, find someone that either starts reining horses or competes in reining. Just tell them that you do not want to compete in reining, but want a 'really broke' horse that goes anywhere you want on a loose rein, but knows how to give to the bit and lets you fix things without throwing a tantrum or giving you a lot of resistance.

    Before you decide on a trainer to work with, watch them ride their horses and see if you like the way their horses go. Tell them your exact goals and see if they will help you get there with your horse. Slapping on a tie-down or a tight nose-band or a long-shanked bit should not be part of it. Good training principles -- mostly teaching a horse to willingly yield to pressure, be it bit or leg pressure, gets the most training done.

    Good luck -- and welcome to the Horse Forum. Cherie
         
        05-12-2014, 08:53 AM
      #28
    Trained
    Thank you Cherie.
    Posted via Mobile Device
         
        05-12-2014, 10:33 AM
      #29
    Weanling
    I do not have a huge knowledge of western but I have seen many horses with "mixed" tack. As long as you know if you have to give the horse english or western cues I don't think the equipment matters too much.
         
        05-12-2014, 11:04 AM
      #30
    Foal
    What it sounds like to me is a misunderstanding between Equitation and Horsemanship. You have a real need for learning of Horsemanship. Might I suggest you read this?
    Horsemanship and Equitation

    As far as bits go, IF she rides well in it and you can control her with it, why change it to suite some one else?
    When I was much greener (and convinced that I had all this stuff figured out) a poor horseman shared with me a nugget of wisdom that I'll share with you. I was explaining to him what so and so famous horseman had said he said to me, "That guy is a master and he has 10 answers for every question. You have one answer for 10 questions."
    People who are very competent with horses and teaching others about them DON'T get all wrapped up in all of the small details because they see LOTS of paths to that destination. People who freak out over minutiae have one path and it frequently is littered with potholes... Good luck!
         

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