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What Bit?

This is a discussion on What Bit? within the Horse Training forums, part of the Training Horses category

     
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        07-27-2009, 04:12 PM
      #31
    Zab
    Yearling
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by RiosDad    
    The definition of a curb bit is any bit that has a mechanical advantage. No mention of the curb strap. Any bit without a mechanical advantage is called a snaffle.
    I'm asking about the word ''leverage'' rather than the word curb..
         
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        07-27-2009, 05:24 PM
      #32
    Banned
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Zab    
    I'm asking about the word ''leverage'' rather than the word curb..
    I'm sorry. I missunderstood you. If the reins come directly off the mouthpiece like in all snaffles if you pull with 20 pounds of force with your arms the horse gets a 20 pound pull on the mouth.
    If you have arms hanging down the side of the mouthpiece like in all curb bits the ratio of the part below the mouthpiece vs the distance above the mouthpiece determines the leverage.
    Example. If you have 1 1/2 inches above the mouthpiece where the head stall fastens and you have 3 inches below the mouthpiece where the reins attach you have a 2 to one ratio or your 20 pound pull on the reins now amount to 40 pounds on the horse.
    The curb chain prevents the horse from escaping this pull since it pulls the mouthpiece down onto the bars.
    Hope this explains it better
         
        07-27-2009, 05:38 PM
      #33
    Started
    I also hate seeing any bit that has a jointed mouthpiece called a snaffle, when in fact a fair number of them aren't. And I've found that a lot of books that are out there only skim over the issues of bits when training a horse, and instead talk about everything else. I'll the horses I've started have been started in a french link loose ring, and all of them continued to be ridden in one as long as I was riding them. I do not like full cheeks, nor do I like rubber bits or happy mouths. You do also have to fit the bit to the horses mouth. If they have a thinner mouth, than often times a thicker bit like a rubber bit is more uncomfortable than a thinner bit. I had an 8 year old race bred TB mare, who was trained grand prix jumping when I bought her, and I did everything, dressage, jumping of any height, barrel racing, trail, in a french link loose ring, and never had a problem.
         
        07-27-2009, 05:41 PM
      #34
    Started
    Oh I forgot to say why I used it lol. I use the loose ring, because it conforms better to the horse's mouth, encourages giving to the bit, and chewing, and gives you a much better and softer connection to your horse's mouth.
         
        07-27-2009, 06:25 PM
      #35
    Zab
    Yearling
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by RiosDad    
    I'm sorry. I missunderstood you. If the reins come directly off the mouthpiece like in all snaffles if you pull with 20 pounds of force with your arms the horse gets a 20 pound pull on the mouth.
    If you have arms hanging down the side of the mouthpiece like in all curb bits the ratio of the part below the mouthpiece vs the distance above the mouthpiece determines the leverage.
    Example. If you have 1 1/2 inches above the mouthpiece where the head stall fastens and you have 3 inches below the mouthpiece where the reins attach you have a 2 to one ratio or your 20 pound pull on the reins now amount to 40 pounds on the horse.
    The curb chain prevents the horse from escaping this pull since it pulls the mouthpiece down onto the bars.
    Hope this explains it better
    So, a leverage bit is any kind of shank bit?

    I know how they work, but we call them stångbett, hissbett or tränsbett here ;) Or hävstångsbett etc :P So it's just the words I sometimes don't quite follow :)
         
        07-28-2009, 10:35 PM
      #36
    Foal
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Diegosmom    
    He is on a snaffle right now.He is fully trained I guess im just haveing a hard time with stopping.
    He may be fully trained, but sounds like you're not (said respectfully). If he's got the training but you are too heavy handed (meaning you stop with your hands and not with your seat first) then this is will cause him to lose his stop and blow through the bit.

    Quote:
    He rains pretty good but the stopping is hard.Sometimes he does well most of the time its hard.
    This brings me to believe that your using your hands way too much. Take some lessons or get some riding material to help you learn how to use your seat and legs over your hands.

    This is the order in which you ride (for going and stopping and everything in between):

    1. Your seat
    2. Your legs
    3. Your hands

    If you pull on the reins and play tug of war = you're causing the loss of the stop. You cause him to pull against you. It's natural for him to find a release if you're not providing it and more so, if you're pulling vs. simply taking out the slack and holding that slack out while you drive him into the bit with your legs....

    Quote:
    He is young about 5 and a bit hard headed at times.
    He's GREEN broke. He's not dead broke. That means, you must raise your skill level to be sure you're not giving him mixed signals.
    Make sure you're not using the reins to balance yourself, and that you never pull back on the reins for anything.

    Quote:
    I was just wondering if there was anything that would give me better control with him.
    A bit will NOT give you control. That's not what bits are for. They are for communication and to teach your horse how to carry himself with a rider (collection).

    If you want real control, learn to use your seat, legs and your hands correctly, this is the best control you'll ever have.

    If you go with a "bigger" or harsher bit with shanks you will cause more problems to where he may bolt through the bit, buck, rear, etc....because a shank bit will put way more pressure on his entire head (tongue, mouth, jaw, poll) and if you're already heavy handed = disaster.

    Don't fall into this amateur trap.

    Get some training lessons for yourself to learn how to ride a green broke horse. That's the best advice I can give you.

    Leave him in a snaffle (the safest bit you can use for a green horse and a heavy-handed rider)....because when you pick up one one rein only, it also allows you lateral control as well (one rein stop...emergency brake) and access to the hip (the engine, the steering, the stopping control)....if you can control the hip..that's the key. Ride him from back to front not front only (steering the head, stopping the head).

    Also..a snaffle bit (no shanks) will put an even amount of pressure in the horse's mouth or outside of it (I do like dee ring snaffles or full cheeks for this reason. I ride one rein at a time with these bits easily and effectively).....a shank bit will put more pressure than what you're really applying with your hands. So, an ounce of pressure is louder to the horse. Imagine how much pressure you exert if you're already heavy handed and using a shank bit? Ouch!

    Want to put your stop back on?
    ONE REIN STOP

    1) go forward
    2) roll back on your back pockets without leaning back
    3) pick up ONE rein only
    4) bend his head around toward your stirrup in a smooth motion
    5) same hip (as the rein you're using...left rein/left hip) moves over....meaning, the back feet cross and the front feet stop.
    6) horse stops and stays stopped. Release the rein

    -only do this at the walk and circle down at the trot and circle down at the lope

    If you follow the steps above without skipping anything, you can teach your horse to stop when you roll back on your pockets.

    It takes repetitions.

    Quote:
    Everynow and then I have a hard time getting him to turn the way I want but not to often and its mainly because he is too interested in whats going on in the other direction..I hope I explained all that well enogh
    No. It's because you're not an active rider, you're acting a passenger (again, meant respectfully).

    He's telling you that you really don't have any communication going on and you're way too heavy handed.

    For turning, apply the same one rein stop steps....but change where you put the release. For the stop....you put it when the horse stops. For a turn...you STEER THE TAIL.....
    This is an exaggerated turn:
    1) go forward
    2) pick up one rein (let's say the left rein), put your left leg on him to drive that left hip over
    3) the horse bends his head around to the left and moves that left hip to the right....he's bending his body around your left leg...he's crossing over with that left hind in front of the right hind....he's turning left. Drive him through the turn with both your legs now and release when he turns left.
    --change to the right rein, right leg for the turn to the right.

    When you stop arguing with his head and steer his tail (move it right to turn left, move it left to turn right...like a rudder on a boat).....then you will be able to turn him with just closing your fingers on one rein and putting your leg on him and he'll turn.
         
        07-28-2009, 11:07 PM
      #37
    Weanling
    To answer the original question :
    I start them in a bosel, then move on to one of the snaffles depending on what ever I grab that day - yes, I change the varieties, but not much. . . May be a full cheek, d-ring, o-ring or 3 ring elevator. Just depends on my mood, or if one of them is being used elsewhere at the time.
         
        07-30-2009, 04:00 PM
      #38
    Foal
    I start my babies with a D ring snaffle... It prevents it from being pulled through the mouth and they prevent a hard mouth. No curb needed with this bit... I start by babies with this and move them into a regualr snaffle with very loose curb pressure.
         
        07-30-2009, 04:03 PM
      #39
    Foal
    I use a D ring snaffle on my babies because it applies even pressure and prevents it from being pulled through the mouth... Very nice starter bit
         
        07-31-2009, 06:27 PM
      #40
    Weanling
    I will ride a horse that I don't know it's bitting history on, in a snaffle of some sort, D ring, loose ring, fullcheek, eggbutt, whatever, and that's what I start horses in or start them over in. Sometimes I move into a pelham, but I usually stay away from ported or mullen mouth bits, unless it is recommended for the horse by the original trainer (and experience of the trainer is taken into consideration here). Otherwise I like hackamores to get horses that have to ride in a snaffle more keen or sensitive to my hands and then move back into an approved snaffle. I've used a bit of everything in the hunter jumper world.
         

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