what do you do with a horse that DOES NOT want you on its back - Page 3 - The Horse Forum
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post #21 of 51 Old 05-02-2012, 03:30 AM
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What would I do? Well if pain is ruled out then the horse wouldn't be mine any longer.
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post #22 of 51 Old 05-02-2012, 03:37 AM
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Sometimes horses can get past the point of no return. Either out of rider error/fear, brain damage, or some other sort of trauma. Sometimes we may never know, and sometimes we have to come to terms with the fact that we cannot fix the horse. Even if you were able to get this horse going somewhat okay for yourself, there's no way your client is going to have the courage or experience to continue its training. If this horse cannot be figured out, it either needs to go out as a pasture companion or put down. It's sad, because it probably wasn't the horse's fault (reminds me of the horse in the Buck documentary), but if a horse is doing intentional damage to itself and another human being, it needs to be put out of its misery and out of the way of having other people potentially harm it, or she can harm them.

In my opinion, I would get on this horse in a round pen and just make it run. Put as much forward movement on it as possible. If it sucks up, make her turn sharply and move. If she heads for the wall, push her faster. She needs to move forward, not backward. I'd be on her with a crop like a heathen.
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post #23 of 51 Old 05-02-2012, 03:54 AM
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If this were my horse, the first thing I would do is look for physiological causes of pain and I would also start that horse over from scratch. It could take months, or longer.

Oh vair oh, imagine you have no voice to vocalize what is wrong, what happened and why, and then imagine being run and run and run and you can't get away and you're being pushed and frightened by someone with a whip. And imagine yourself being called an "it." How would that feel to you? I am sincerely asking.
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post #24 of 51 Old 05-02-2012, 04:01 AM
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She is being pushed by the herd leader. She is no longer permitted to sulk up, rear, or brace. Those were her ways of release - she got release when she went backwards. I'm saying she needs to find release moving forward. I might have not made myself clear, but once she's moving forward, she should be free of all pressures. She should find happiness and complacency when she is moving forward, it should be a joy at that moment. When she sulls up, she needs to have pressure put on her. She can no longer be allowed to find release by throwing herself backwards or against walls.
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post #25 of 51 Old 05-02-2012, 05:06 AM
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I do agree with you, oh vair oh, on the sad reality that a horse can be traumatized past the point of no return. And not through any fault of their own. Far too many of them.
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post #26 of 51 Old 05-03-2012, 06:47 AM
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As mentioned before, you could try having someone on her back while you lead or work with her. I usually don't have someone to help me, so I would secure a feed bag to the saddle and work with her. You could also try taking her to a grassy area and just sit on her while she grazes. Try to eliminate causes of why she does it. Not knowing her past, many things could be the reason. Maybe she was pushed or worked to hard or badly punished for not doing what was asked. Try making riding a pleasurable thing for her (sitting on her while grazing). After a while, ask for just a little forward movement and see how it goes.

I had just worked with a horse that was somewhat similar. A friend owned this mare and had pushed to hard on her. Both got frustrated and the horse started baulking, rearing, and only moving backwards no matter what you did. You could kick and whip her but she would not go forward. I spent one week on her correcting it. When she wouldn't go forward, I just made her turn side to side until I got a step or two in a forward motion. I immediately stopped asking for anything. She kept expecting to get punished or if she acted up long enough she thought she could get out of having to work. I didn't do either. Once she realized I wasn't going to quit on her or punish/get after her, she started to move forward more easily. She still has a slight tendency to go backwards but by redirecting her energy to turning, she goes forward again without much fight. It's just going to take some time. Habits are hard to break.

One last tip: Don't let yourself get frustrated. If you are frustrated, the horse will be too. If things aren't working, take a step back and work on something more simple.
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post #27 of 51 Old 05-03-2012, 08:16 AM
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Sounds like one we got in to train for the man that owns the local sale barn. When his father was still living, about 25 years ago, they sent us a paint gelding they had raised. He had never been spoiled and was barely halter broke at three, was big fat and in wonderful condition.

He was easy to work with on the ground and never had a single problem there. I stepped on him for the first time and he balked or just wanted to go backwards and this was after thoroughly training him to ground drive. So, husband tried driving him forward with me on his back. He got more mad and more mad every minute.

We thoroughly checked his back and checked him all over. Could not find a thing wrong with him. So husband saddled up a well trained big ranch gelding he did 'day work' on and snubbed him. He stayed mad but had to go forward. He gradually got to where he ponied a little better so he unsnapped the lead and I rode by myself. A couple of minutes later, the horse figured it out and sulled up, pawed the ground and ran me sideways out in the pasture into a barbed wire fence and cut us both up. When the wire was cutting into him, he just leaned harder into the pain. I finally was able to get off of him and we went back to ponying.

We messed with this dummy for 2 or 3 weeks. Finally got him riding a little bit, but it never lasted very long and you never knew when he would dummy up and just get mad.

We talked to the owner and told him he what he was like and he said to just bring him home. He sold him through his sale and he was a pretty devil and brought a pretty good price just leading him through the ring saying he had been ridden a few times. [WE just hoped they did not tell anyone who had ridden him without also telling them what he was like.]

Well, about 5 years later we ran into a man that bought his mother and she had another paint colt at her side when he bought her. Guess what? That colt was just as bad to try to train and did about the same thing only he reared and fell over several times. The put him down. They had also tried riding the old mare and sure enough -- she did not ride either.

The whole family was just that nuts.

Ship this one on a one way trip. There are just too many nice horses out there. She belongs to someone else and even if you get her riding a little better, their blood will be partially on your hands if she hurts them. That is what we finally decided with the paint horse. I always wished they had not sold him the way they did. I just hope -- to this day -- that he did not hurt anyone.

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post #28 of 51 Old 05-03-2012, 08:51 AM
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I did much the same thing as using deep water except I used freshly turned summer fallow along with two outriders. I also put a calf halter under the bridle with the chain under her jaw. She rode quiet until I asked moved her up into a canter then she tried to cut loose. A yank on the calf halter quickly brought her head back up. When she decided to bolt I knew it wouldn't last long in the soft footing. When she wanted to slow down the outriders tapped her on the rump. When she was desperate to slow down she was more than happy to walk. We rode for another two hours, with her sometimes out front, middle and behind. She was a good girl after that. I need to mention that the day before I'd saddled her and driven her with long lines to find out what she knew. At one point she reared straight up and I pulled her over on her side. She did not attempt to do so again as that had never happened before and it badly frightened her.
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post #29 of 51 Old 05-03-2012, 08:55 AM
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I am going to suggest you do as John Lyons did with such a mare. They put a "rider", clothes stuffed to look like a rider and secured it to the saddle. No matter how she bucked the "rider" held on. The mare bucked until she had no more buck left in her. Then a real rider was able to ride her without getting hurt.
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post #30 of 51 Old 05-03-2012, 09:23 AM
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Originally Posted by DRichmond View Post
Oh vair oh, imagine you have no voice to vocalize what is wrong, what happened and why, and then imagine being run and run and run and you can't get away and you're being pushed and frightened by someone with a whip. And imagine yourself being called an "it." How would that feel to you? I am sincerely asking.
You're anthropomorphising the horse. They don't see it the way humans do. They don't have "feelings" like humans do. If a horse was being made to run and run, no matter what it was trying to say about it, the horse would associate the person making the horse run with leadership. It's how a lead mare works - she chases the lesser beings in her herd until they quit doing what she doesn't want them to do, then she leaves them. She doesn't pat them and tell them she loves them if they do what she considers the right thing. She only punishes the wrong thing.

Horse psychology is a huge part of horse training. Unfortunately for you, human psychology has absolutely no relevance.
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