Originally Posted by Joe4d
When you give a horse food, he thinks he just punked you and took it away from you. Yes you can establish dominance and then give treats, but nothing sends a bigger message of leadership to a horse faster than making him wait until you are done eating. ....
I see nothing you can do with a clicker I can't do with a couple simple voice commands. ... So I am supposed to train my horse to stand with a click, then phase it out to use something else ? Sounds kinda dumb, why not train him to stand when I say "STAND" from the getgo
With the first point, that it's not natural for a horse to bring another horse a feed, IMO it's not relevant. Re leadership/dominance, I do think that's a relevant consideration, but just don't personally agree with the conclusion. It's like saying that horses aren't born with shoes on, so that means they should all go barefoot in all situations. I think it's a very good idea to first consider natural behaviour & analyse different approaches with this in mind, but at the end of the day, just because something's natural doesn't make it necessarily Right or Best, or vice versa IMO.
Re the second part above, a clicker(or whatever 'bridging signal' you choose to use) is not the cue & doesn't replace a cue. So you would indeed use a cue like stand 'from the get go'. A 'bridging signal' is just something that means "Yes! What you did right then earned you a reward". It's helpful IMO because it 'buys time' between behaviour & reward, as animals learn from instant consequences & find it hard or impossible to relate abstract ideas such as 'this is a reward for what you did before'.
Re what's the point in doing something that you're going to phase out, think about however you reinforce a horse - when you teach something, you may praise(actually a b/s not a reward), give a scratch, negatively reinforce a cue by applying/removing pressure, but you don't keep on doing all that after the horse has learned - eg. You don't praise/reward every little step of a back up, you don't teach the horse to respond to a seat cue & continue to back it up with reinforcement from leg & rein when he's already responding to the seat cue.
Originally Posted by AmazinCaucasian View Post
We may never win this argument because we're in a room full of women, but you're right. I don't care what they say.
We're not having an argument though, we're having a discussion!
I know an awful lot of women that don't understand or agree with c/t either, and a number of men, including zoo keepers & behavioural scientists training wild animals(could you instruct them on a more effective way?), who may just be offended by that comment too
Each to his own, IMO. I'm just wanting to explain my perspective of where I see opinions based on misunderstandings about the principles.