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When do you call it quits with an inconsistent, dominant horse?

12K views 71 replies 28 participants last post by  Saddlebag 
#1 · (Edited by Moderator)
I am new to this forum and am wondering if anyone can give me some input/advice in regards to some very perplexing problems with our 5 year old Rocky Mountain horse that we have owned for approximately 7 months.

A brief history of the horse prior to our purchasing him is that he basically had no demands made of him in his first almost 5 years of life, so no true “work ethic”. He initially presented to us that he was a very dominant gelding....he would torment our other horses if turned out with them, nonstop. He was very disrespectful when leading, and if you asked anything of him he would shove his left shoulder into you and virtually try to run over the top of you. You could not halter him....if he seen the lead rope or halter....actually anything you would carry in your hands, he was gone....not just physically gone, but mentally gone as well....he even jumped over a fence to get away when I walked into the paddock to get him. He loved people as long as everything was on HIS terms.

We proceeded with a complete round penning course to gain respect...complete desensitizing, etc. He showed us he was extremely intelligent....too intelligent for his own good. We faced a lot of challenges along the way and we were in constant contact with a local professional trainer, giving us advice every time the horse would try to “one up us”. We would make progress, then regress, then more progress, then regress again. The horse has been extremely difficult to get to accept the saddle and bridle....he blows and snorts EVERY time you go to saddle him....this is after 5 steady months of saddling, bridling, and riding. He will still act like he has never seen a saddle or bridle in his life. On one occasion he broke off a 6 x 6 when we approached him with the saddle...and we had had at least 20 successful saddlings and rides prior to this.

Once saddled and bridled, he acts as relaxed as can be. It is getting there that is the problem. There is nothing physically wrong with the horse. He has been checked for saddle fit, he has had myler bits, and gentle hands when in the bridle. He is soft in the bridle, very responsive, and excellent on the trail. He is a joy to ride, does anything you ask, once you get past the first 10-15 minutes. He tends to be very nervous for that first 10-15 minutes, which I have experienced previously with young horses, so that is not so much a concern. It is the saddling and bridling that stumps us....we were told to use the saddle just as the other desensitizing objects...go towards him and if he moves keep following him, and when he stops, drop the saddle immediately and walk away....release the pressure. It worked great for awhile....he accepted it with no problem for awhile...then he regressed...then he was fine....then he regressed....we can saddle him a dozen times in one day....he can be fine for 6 times, and horrible for 6 times....it makes no sense whatsoever.

We still feel that after all the round penning that he still does not respect us....because at times when we go to saddle him he will throw that left shoulder into you and try to knock you out of the way. We will then lunge him around on the long line to establish the boundaries and he will lick and relax, but it always seems to be short-lived.

Any time he happens to get turned out with the other horses and gets the chance to reestablish his dominance, we find that he then is more difficult to handle....so we keep him separate. He has never really been completely knocked down off his “high horse” by any other horse throughout his life. He has succeeded with this dominant attitude, and our take is that he still is “above us”. I have done research on dominant horses, and have read everything from putting him in with a dominant mare or gelding so he can be “put in his place”, to having someone “lay him down” as that will be a lesson of ultimate respect, to just keep at it and miles and miles of wet saddle blankets will finally sink in.

He did buck me off a week ago when I was leaving out on a trail ride....I seen him give a few looks back towards home and suddenly it felt like he was traveling with the emergency brake on....before I knew it he had his head buried between his front legs and was what I call “flippin' buckin”....I didn't have a prayer of staying with him. Now I am concerned because he is such a dominant and intelligent horse that he will remember that....he hurt me badly enough that I could not get back on him....all I was able to do was take him behind our John Deere Gator and pony him for about 6 miles so he did not get out of working. I have not been back on him....he was supposed to go into training on August 3rd, come out on September 3rd, and then leave out on a shore-to-shore criss cross ride here in Michigan on September 7th. I thought after that I would possibly have a good horse. I have talked with the trainer and his concern is that in the 5 months we have seriously worked with him, the horse is not showing any consistency...he is unpredictable. I love this horse, and am struggling with WHEN IS IT TIME TO LET GO??? When do you decide that something between the ears is not quite right? :?
 
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#30 ·
Yup.. had a TB mare that prolly could have been a much better horse. She is now someone else's project cuz I just didn't like her well enough to put forth the effort. Plus I'm just partial to QH's. Gotta commend you though, putting 3 years into a filly that I would have been tempted to shoot after the double barrel kick.. kudos to your stubborn patience...lol
 
#32 ·
Personally, I think you'll see a totally changed attitude if you lay this horse down. I don't think he really wants to be dominate, but doesn't know what else to do. I think he's insecure. No horse who is truly secure in their dominant position feels the need to reinforce it as often as yours does…yours run the dog piss out of your herd every time he's in with them…I'm the boss, I'm the boss, I'm the boss, I'm the boss. That is not a secure "leader". I think he's been a horse whose been alone and that's why he's better alone. I also think that is why he pays attention to every little thing you do. I think laying this horse down will take the insecurity out of him - it'll take the worry out of him. Sometimes what a horse thinks is going to happen is much worse than what actually does happen…he needs to know that.
 
#36 ·
You know, sometimes they are just broken. I hate to use a human analogy as anybody who's read my "few" posts would know I usually don't equate human emotion/psyche to horses. But in this case I think it's appropriate. Sometimes humans are just broken. For whatever reason. Not wired right in the head or whatever. No sense of right/wrong, you get the point.

Sometimes the demons or fears or emotional baggage are way too deep and way too buried to make them right. They are now nothing more than a danger to anyone around.

*I* believe you made the right decision, Dreamcatcher. You went above and beyond what most would have.
 
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#37 ·
I again say thanks to all the good advice....and I certainly can relate to Dreamcatcher.

I would have to look back at my thread but I do believe I mentioned I had been working with a professional trainer....we have already had the horse to his place. What I have not mentioned is the trainer knows the sire of this horse....and he has the SAME mind. And we all should be aware of genetics.....there are those that breed animals indiscriminately for beauty with no regards to BRAINS. You can't ride "pretty". This horse is one of the prettiest animals conformation-wise....but it is very possible the apple didn't fall far from the tree being his sire possesses the same traits. I was simply trying to get advice to exhaust all options. I believe I also mentioned the trainer feels I am wasting my time putting 30 days training on him because he is not "right-witted". And this trainer is highly respected in my area.

My plans are to lay this horse down.....I felt strongly about that based on what I had seen in the past....I will get professional help to do so....but it may be a couple weeks as I became a grandma today and will be helping my daughter recover from a c-section....my obsession with diguring this animal out has been redirected with this new little bundle of joy!

And Patty, when I get home be ready with the super duty velcro because we have lots of ground to cover to get this boy ready for the criss-cross MTRA ride...he will not buck me off again!
 
#40 ·
She was laid down permanently this afternoon. She had been sold, just waiting for the new owner to pick up and pay for her. While at the trainer's I think I mentioned that she tried to kick her stall down? Evidently she kicked something that gave her a very small puncture wound into her pastern joint. I had been stall resting and cold hosing and had told the soon to be new owner of the lameness, btw. When she wasn't better today, I didn't feel right about sending her on without a definitive diagnosis, so took her in to OSU. She had a chip fracture and a bone/joint infection. In a human, they would amputate that part but in a horse they surgically try to repair it if the owner is willing to spend the money. Based on her past behaviour the decision was made to humanely euthanize her. R.I.P. little mare.

Army Wife, this mare had been laid down in training, and on occasion would even remain laying down in her stall for a pet. And on other days, she'd totally not want to be touched. When I described all this to the vet, while we were discussing her diagnosis/treatment/prognosis, he sad, "You know that there is mental illness in horses, right?". He agreed that putting her down was the best/safest solution.
 
#39 ·
Folks, this is just an old cowboy's opinion, but the moment the words "When should I give up on this horse?" are uttered, the person has mostly already done so. Not a blanket statement and I realize there are exceptions. My answer to that question is ALWAYS "right now"

You will never hear this fella try to talk someone out of getting rid of a horse. I try not to talk them into it either but that has happened.

Pushing beyond your "give up" point is really unwise as the frustration really begins to manifest. If asked for advice, I give the best I have, but asked if a horse should be sent down the road.. I may say that is totally up to you but my inclination is always yep.

And knowing the fertilizer storm this will kick up, in this particular case, after going to the lengths that Dream went to try and get this horse trained, I would probably (this is me not advice to anyone else) put it down. I have a rule for myself that I will never sell a horse that I believe to be unsafe. I couldn't live with the knowledge that a problem horse I passed on hurt someone else. If I just don't want to train the horse but see that it can be.. sell it.. give it away.. but if Damien shows his face, the horse goes down. Maybe overly harsh or cold, but folks, horses are animals and people are not...
 
#41 ·
Sorry Dream,
tough thing to do, especially after all the work and time. You are to be commended for making the tough choice and I tip my hat to ya. Not anything to celebrate but I admire you.
 
#43 ·
Thanks y'all. I feel sorry for the poor horse. After the vet and I got through talking about her behavioral issues, we couldn't decide if she was ADHD, Bipolar or if it was just the "voices" in her head...but that's what led to the mental illness comment from him. I've been around horses for 40+ years and never had one that the only consistant thing was.....inconsistancy.

Now she's at peace and I don't have to worry about her hurting me or anyone else again, so I think it ended up being for the best.

AW, in my case OSU is Oklahoma State University, their vet school is AWESOME.
 
#44 ·
Hi all. Just a word from a life long horse owner and lover. We feed them, we groom them, we worm them, we bed them down in a clean barn we take them to the vet for vacinations. We bathe them, we spray them to keep the flies away we feed supplements for thier feet, for energy. We make sure they have a salt block, and shade from the sun. I go so far as many of you do I am sure to have a huge fan for them to stand infront of on hot day in the barn. We apply liniment to thier muscles after working. We even take them to the dentist. Oh and the farrier comes on schedule every 6wks to take care of thier feet. Now is it too much to ask for them to do some work!!!! I spoke to a vet at Uof M last week and he said thier are alot of good horses out there who deserve a good home, why would you want to keep a bad one? Just a thought I was having and not intended for anyone in particular on this forum. I have kept my share of underserving ones kind of like children I know. LOL
 
#45 ·
"he said thier are alot of good horses out there who deserve a good home, why would you want to keep a bad one?"

I know you didn't mean that personally and I didn't take it that way. Here's my poor horse's story. I was a fan of her father's and he is gorgeous. I saw her brother when he was born and he is gorgeous. I told her breeder if she ever had a filly just like the brother, I wanted her. So....3 years later, she gets the filly and contacts me. I bought her, she was even prettier than her father and brother. This filly was allegedly imprinted when born. First thing she did when she got here was to drop kick me over a pipe panel, ooops, guess she wasn't so imprinted.

I thought things would improve and started working with her daily. Friends came by and said, "She's a nutcase get rid of her before she kills you.". I thought I could work her out of it, I've worked with some pretty tough horses. Abuse, starvation, off the track, straight out of an Arabian Halter barn, you name it. They all came around.

After I had her for about a year, I got my foot crushed and was off of it for about a year, so she didn't get handled. When I went back out to the barn, she had regressed and was terrorizing the barn help. I contacted her breeder to see if she'd ever had problems that I didn't know about and boy, did I get some undisclosed info.....and no she didn't want the filly back to keep me from putting her down. OOOOKKKKKK, well, I still didn't want to give up. I kind of felt like since I'd been laid up for a year, I 'owed' it to her to work with her some more. Sooo, one of my old broodies got injured and we took her to be put down, a gate got left open, the stallion and the filly got together and VOILA we have a preggo mare. Now I gotta keep her until the baby is born at least.

Baby is born, she's a good mum and so I let her nurse the baby for 4 months. I weaned the baby and then after mom had some time to dry up, I sent her off to a trainer as a last resort. The rest of the story is all in this thread.

I learned several things from this little escapade.

1) I will never keep a horse that shows agression from the git go again. I should have called the hauler and told him to come back and take her back to the breeder the minute she kicked me.

2) I never need another horse from outside my program again. I know how I handle my stallion, my mares and my foals. Nuff said.

3) There truly is mental illness in horses and it's hereditary. Of course, if that's not disclosed, you won't know the hereditary part, but I found out.

4) If a horse seems to be just waaaaaaaay over the top with fearfulness and inability to accept routine schooling.....move 'em on early in the game. I allowed this mare to take up so much of my time that my other, nicer horses suffered in their training because of it. Instead of having experienced, good trail and show horses, they're still green because I used everything I had on this mare. Not fair to anyone.

Bottom line, there are a whole lotta nice horses out there, I breed some of them. I don't care how gorgeous and made to order one seems, beauty is as beauty does. If it's a nut case, it ain't pretty no matter what it looks like.
 
#47 ·
Hey Dreamcatcher, This horse wasnt related to Cantanier out of Gondolier and Cantarina? I bought a gelding out of him that was crazy. I paid 4200 for him and paid someone 200$to take him!! I gave him 5yrs of my life and many tears before I told my husband get rid of him or I will shoot him myself. No one wanted him for free so I upped the offer. Best money I ever spent. Now I still love the arabian breed. The best horses I ever owned were Bask bred arabs. They lived here till they were so old we had to put them down. I didnt really know what people meant when they said Arabs were crazy until I owned one that was.
 
#48 ·
Hey Dreamcatcher, This horse wasnt related to Cantanier out of Gondolier and Cantarina? I bought a gelding out of him that was crazy. I paid 4200 for him and paid someone 200$to take him!! I gave him 5yrs of my life and many tears before I told my husband get rid of him or I will shoot him myself. No one wanted him for free so I upped the offer. Best money I ever spent. Now I still love the arabian breed. The best horses I ever owned were Bask bred arabs. They lived here till they were so old we had to put them down. I didnt really know what people meant when they said Arabs were crazy until I owned one that was.

No she wasn't. And she was 1/2 Arab, not purebred. But loose screw.....oh yeah, maybe even a missing one.
 
#51 ·
Question: If he bolted through/over a fence when he saw a halter, or when approached with something in your hands, and does not like a saddle, have you checked on:
1. If he was ever beaten? I don't mean made to be submissive, I mean abuse by someone who beat the living tar out of him with a foreign object held in the hands? A horse who will run through a fence to get away is not just smart, it's out of its mind scared.

2. Does your saddle fit him? Are you too big for him?
 
#52 · (Edited)
Cowgirl _ I sat and wrote a response to your request as to how to redirect a bolshie but intelligent gelding. Then I read on and found you were soon to be a grandma - so I binned the response. You don't need a horse like you have described in your life right now. Find him a good but knowledgeable home but make sure they know about his little problems.

- however before I let him go, I would do a bute test - ie fill him up with painkiller and see if he becomes more amenable - if he does then check for both ulcers. and/or a kissing spine. I'd also ask the vet to check if he is a rig - ie the castration did not go as it should have done.
I'd have his teeth checked by an equine dentist and then try a hackamore bridle.

But I would definitely try to eliminate pain from the equation.

However if the problem seems to remain as behavioural - then in your
circumstances, I'd let him go to a good but knowledgable home who thought they could cope.
Intelligent but dominant horses can be good for competition in dressage and other specialities - if you can ride them. And at 5yo, give the boy a little slack - but show him some discipline. (not cruelty).

Congrats, Grandma
BG
 
#53 · (Edited)
Wanted everyone to know my "problem child) is in the hands of a professional trainer. He laid him down yesterday...it became very apparent just how dominant this horse is. I have left him there for a week...the plan is to lay him down 4 times a day...he said I will not believe the difference in 4 days. And he said he will have a good idea after working with him whether he has a mental problem.

It only makes sense that horses can have mental issues...I have had dogs I have rescued that had OCD, separation anxiety, etc and dogs that needed prozac.

A comment was made that if I had to ask when to give up, then I already have. Not true. I came here to seek advice as to what on earth I can do to get into this horses head...to make sure I have not missed anything...to explore every option because I love this horse...I have no problem letting him go if he is not the horse for me...however this horse likes me as well...we go for casual walks. He goes down to the creek with me and we go for walks up the creek. When I come out of the house he will leave his hay every time to come get attention. When you pull in in a vehicle he does the same....he is truly a people horse...until it comes to saddling/bridling. Once the saddle is ON he returns to a people horse.

Sometimes he gets saddled and just stands tied for a few hours. Sometimes its just saddling and going for a casual walk (not on him). It is not all about work. And I will also mention he stands like a rock for mounting....from either side.

I will explore the bute thing....give it to him for a few days and see if there is a difference. Saddle fit is fine. His teeth are good...he was just to the dentist...ulcers....I have no clue. Seems I would see signs of something else other than when the horse sees a saddle.

The concern, again, is when the horse flips this "switch". He did it one of the times he was laid down....he got up and was standing there and suddenly it looked like no one was home...his eyes changed completely.....an evil look comes over him. Everyone seen it...we videod it...it is crazy....or he is!!!! It took about a minute and he returned. Put his head down and licked his lips.

Will keep everyone posted on the progress! Or lack thereof!
Posted via Mobile Device
 
#54 ·
I have said more than once that the role of a horse in a human's life is not just to wear a saddle and a human ride it. A role for a horse can be to be the recipient of a human's affection. You openly declare your 'love' for this 'naughty' fellow - and why not.

But from the description you give, the horse has a problem. I'd not worry about 'his evil eye' but I would worry about him putting his head between his legs and bucking. He wants his rider off and pronto and what is more he knows how to do it.

If he has a physical pain problem then he needs a horse doctor of some sorts - if he has a screw loose then he needs either a horse psycho or a bullet.

The problem for you is that human you and equine him speak a different language and so far I have never found a dictionary to accurately provide an accurate interpretation of the means of communication.

For spasmodic outbursts of bad behaviour never eliminate pain and the fear of it in a horse. Fear of pain is what in olden times the horse wranglers used as a weapon to control horses. Some folks still do.

The problem for the caring owner is often to locate and then eliminate the pain - or the fear of it.
 
#58 ·
In the Uk, you'll find at some specialised tack stores, a 'Daisy' strap which runs over the horses poll and is attached to the brow band and at the other end, the rings on the saddle. It is designed for young kids to be used on ponies which will stop to graze the grassy banks, I have seen a heavier version used on horses which have a tendency to buck.
The effect of the strap is to exert pressure on the poll if the horse attempts to
reach down to the ground. To buck most horses will bend their heads down and try to jerk the reins out of the rider's hands and at the same time they will round their backs.

As with most corrective leather tack, it is preferable to train/cure the horse so that the use of such leather ware is not necessary but sometimes that is easier said that done.
 
#59 ·
I dont know about your training and if that is or is not part of the problem. However, when you become uncomfortable with being around him or riding him and other help is not easing the uncomfortable feeling, it may be time for him to go to someone with more experience. I've been there. I had a gelding I raised for his 10 years and he was always a testy, semi aggressive horse but I was experienced enough to not be intimidated and to handle him. However, for some reason, after 10 years he suddenly became extremely aggressive to the point where he was knocking other horses on the ground, he had started rearing and bolting (he had never bucked or reared a day in his life before) and charging. I started to feel uncomfortable with this horse because he had become extremely unpredictable that I decided it was time to sell him for mine and my young families safety even though I was very attached as I raised him. Point is, horses are very good at seeking out riders weaknesses and using it to their advantage so if you have this many problems now and you are not able to get things under control and feel comfortable with him with the help of a trainer, you need to consider other options for the safety of both you. Wish you the best of luck with him! :)
 
#60 ·
BTW, I carry a thick rope, the yacht type. Any horse that tried to shoulder me would feel the sting of that rope on his neck. I'd whack him hard. If he's in a round pen he has no where to go so when he stops, just fetch him and start again with the pad, rope in readiness. Usually a second time is all it takes but it may take a third. You have just made it clear to him that you call the shots, not him.
 
#61 ·
A week ago I wrote a very long, detailed update on the outcome of laying down my horse. When I got done and hit the post button.....poof....it was gone.
So now I will keep it simple.
The results of laying this horse down were absolutely astounding. It was not until the 3rd time when we laid down one horse and another got up....he was a tough nut to crack....but I have such a calm horse now.
I want to thank all that supported this idea. I felt all along in my heart that this was what needed to be done. Many thought we had a personality clash....I never felt that way....this horse liked me except for this horrible attitude about saddling/bridling. I did learn as well that no matter what you cannot carry a saddle from a long distance towards him to saddle him. But as long as you get the saddle to the hitching post before the horse, or saddle him at the rear of the trailer where the saddle is sitting nearby, he has no problem accepting it. Whether someone ran at him and threw something at him, or flogged him with something, we do not know. But having the saddle in place on a stand before I get the horse out is a small sacrifice for the kind of ride he gives me out on the trail.
I continue to lay this horse down daily, as advised by the trainer, until I feel that the respect is deeply instilled in him. He now will go down as soon as I just pick up a foot....I first tell him to bow.....he kneels down on his knees...then I tell him sit...he stays in an upright sitting position....then I tell him down. I can take him from the bow to the down and bypass the sit. He is very compliant, and lays there until I tell him up.
I had it in me to not give up...and I am so glad I didn't. Again, my deepest thanks to all your help!
And the new grandson is doing great!!!
 
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