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When do you call it quits with an inconsistent, dominant horse?

12K views 71 replies 28 participants last post by  Saddlebag 
#1 · (Edited by Moderator)
I am new to this forum and am wondering if anyone can give me some input/advice in regards to some very perplexing problems with our 5 year old Rocky Mountain horse that we have owned for approximately 7 months.

A brief history of the horse prior to our purchasing him is that he basically had no demands made of him in his first almost 5 years of life, so no true “work ethic”. He initially presented to us that he was a very dominant gelding....he would torment our other horses if turned out with them, nonstop. He was very disrespectful when leading, and if you asked anything of him he would shove his left shoulder into you and virtually try to run over the top of you. You could not halter him....if he seen the lead rope or halter....actually anything you would carry in your hands, he was gone....not just physically gone, but mentally gone as well....he even jumped over a fence to get away when I walked into the paddock to get him. He loved people as long as everything was on HIS terms.

We proceeded with a complete round penning course to gain respect...complete desensitizing, etc. He showed us he was extremely intelligent....too intelligent for his own good. We faced a lot of challenges along the way and we were in constant contact with a local professional trainer, giving us advice every time the horse would try to “one up us”. We would make progress, then regress, then more progress, then regress again. The horse has been extremely difficult to get to accept the saddle and bridle....he blows and snorts EVERY time you go to saddle him....this is after 5 steady months of saddling, bridling, and riding. He will still act like he has never seen a saddle or bridle in his life. On one occasion he broke off a 6 x 6 when we approached him with the saddle...and we had had at least 20 successful saddlings and rides prior to this.

Once saddled and bridled, he acts as relaxed as can be. It is getting there that is the problem. There is nothing physically wrong with the horse. He has been checked for saddle fit, he has had myler bits, and gentle hands when in the bridle. He is soft in the bridle, very responsive, and excellent on the trail. He is a joy to ride, does anything you ask, once you get past the first 10-15 minutes. He tends to be very nervous for that first 10-15 minutes, which I have experienced previously with young horses, so that is not so much a concern. It is the saddling and bridling that stumps us....we were told to use the saddle just as the other desensitizing objects...go towards him and if he moves keep following him, and when he stops, drop the saddle immediately and walk away....release the pressure. It worked great for awhile....he accepted it with no problem for awhile...then he regressed...then he was fine....then he regressed....we can saddle him a dozen times in one day....he can be fine for 6 times, and horrible for 6 times....it makes no sense whatsoever.

We still feel that after all the round penning that he still does not respect us....because at times when we go to saddle him he will throw that left shoulder into you and try to knock you out of the way. We will then lunge him around on the long line to establish the boundaries and he will lick and relax, but it always seems to be short-lived.

Any time he happens to get turned out with the other horses and gets the chance to reestablish his dominance, we find that he then is more difficult to handle....so we keep him separate. He has never really been completely knocked down off his “high horse” by any other horse throughout his life. He has succeeded with this dominant attitude, and our take is that he still is “above us”. I have done research on dominant horses, and have read everything from putting him in with a dominant mare or gelding so he can be “put in his place”, to having someone “lay him down” as that will be a lesson of ultimate respect, to just keep at it and miles and miles of wet saddle blankets will finally sink in.

He did buck me off a week ago when I was leaving out on a trail ride....I seen him give a few looks back towards home and suddenly it felt like he was traveling with the emergency brake on....before I knew it he had his head buried between his front legs and was what I call “flippin' buckin”....I didn't have a prayer of staying with him. Now I am concerned because he is such a dominant and intelligent horse that he will remember that....he hurt me badly enough that I could not get back on him....all I was able to do was take him behind our John Deere Gator and pony him for about 6 miles so he did not get out of working. I have not been back on him....he was supposed to go into training on August 3rd, come out on September 3rd, and then leave out on a shore-to-shore criss cross ride here in Michigan on September 7th. I thought after that I would possibly have a good horse. I have talked with the trainer and his concern is that in the 5 months we have seriously worked with him, the horse is not showing any consistency...he is unpredictable. I love this horse, and am struggling with WHEN IS IT TIME TO LET GO??? When do you decide that something between the ears is not quite right? :?
 
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#2 ·
He doesn't sound consistent and it may not be his fault.

It sounds like you two don't really click.. not sure why but maybe you should have a trainer personally work with him to see if it's him being ornery or it's how you two communicate.
 
#3 ·
I have no idea. All I can think of is, is your training consistent? Sounds like you have a good plan, and your doing good on your end. But is there any way that he is getting confused with what your asking or what you want? Do you know of any real dominant horses you could put him out with? I would be worried about injuries, but it sounds like that might be something he needs...
 
#4 ·
I had a Rocky Mountain somewhat similar to this. He was 8 and had never had much work put on him. We were given him because he kept escaping and the police were getting involved and the owner was scared he would get into trouble.

In the saddle he was pretty good, wasn't afraid of anything, one of the easiest horses to load that I have ever seen. On the ground not so good he would use you as a rubbing post. He was absolutely mare crazy even though he was fixed. My sister was terrified of him and he would put on this huge showboat looking thing, head tossing, snorting running back and forward. He didn't do that to me and for some reason I wasn't afraid of him. My other gelding was the dominant one but when I put them together they developed a constant back and forwards on who was going to be leader. One day I went in pasture and he wouldn't move off so I went and got my lunge whip he did his little showboat crap and I chased him off and as he ran off he did a huge kick out but wasn't paying attention and caught himself of the fence.

A friend of mine wanted to buy him from me and knew all of his faults so I sold him to him for $300. I feel much better he sorta reminded me of my brother lol who had hyperactivity and Add. One minute a angel the next a terror. My brother never changed just became smarter about how he went about it.

Life is short and if I'm going to be sipping it through a straw then I want it to be with a horse, that one minute in time changed it all through no fault of their own. I don't want to look back and think why didn't I just get rid of that horse, what makes me so special that I thought this horse can only be with me.

That gelding was a beauty and a easy keeper but he was meant for someone who wants the challenge of his personality.

Good luck.
 
#5 ·
Wow I really feel for you! You sound like you've got the right idea on how to work with him, he is just super reserved about accepting human leadeship. I dont think finding a more dominant horse to turn him out with would help that much. Yes he would be submissive to the horse, but I suspect he would leave that lesson behind as soon as her left the pasture :/

Have you done stuff like free lunging- lots of direction change, disengaging the quarters, making him move his feet constantly. Getting him moving will keep his mind busy, while you exert dominance by making him move. What about join up? Im not really NH, but I get the advantages of join up. Get that submissiveness, encourage it. Join up as many times as it takes to get that horse accepting your leadership.

What are your sessions like?
Perhaps having each session go the same will help. Eg. Lunge/lose-lunge/joinup until the horse is being submissive/joining up (which ever applies). Then proceed to groom and tack up. Then enter the main session-riding, lunging for improvement, in hand stuff. After the session, a rub down followed by feed (if needed).

Also keep to a routein on a weekly basis. Alli thrived when we had a routein of Day 1:lunge/flatwork, Day 2: Jumping, Day 3: hack, Day 4: rest, back to Day 1: lunge/flatwork... So on so on. A 4 day cycle. She knew what to expect so was much happier to work and had a better work ethic.

I really hope you have a break through with this horse- sounds like you deserve it! But like Sky said, perhaps its not working because there isn't that 'click' between you two. Is he the same with all people? Or just those who want him to form some kind of working relationship with him?
 
#8 ·
A friend of mine had a gelding similar to this, she worked with him for 2 years and he was still inconsistent. She sold him to another friend of mine who has 160 sections of land and 2000 cow calf pairs, he gets ridden every day checking cows, doctoring, branding etc and has not tested him once. Some horses just don't click with a rider or their training style or just don't enjoy what they are doing. Put this gelding in a round pen or arena and he will push every button you have. Take him out and let him chase cows and rope and he is an angel in every way.
Not saying you should absolutely sell him but maybe he just does not click with what you are doing and needs a change or scenery.
Good luck!
 
#9 ·
A few things I failed to mention in my original post...there have been so many interesting observations concerning this horse.....I have almost 20 years experience with horses, and he is truly the smartest horse I have ever had the pleasure AND frustration of working with. He has llearned the round penning exercises with ease....he is completely respectful on the long line as well as loose....does his turns correctly, yields hind quarters, joins up, follows you anywhere, licking his lips, cocks his back leg.....UNTIL he sees there is a saddle involved. Even if he sees the saddle sitting on a stand you will see an immediate change in attitude. Initially if he seen us saddling other horses he would go as far away in the paddock as possible. He will now come up and see what is going on. Now if we saddle him with other horses standing by he is much better than saddling alone. But he usually always tries to "duck out" and shove that shoulder into you or outright try to body slam you...if you ask him to step over in any way he will just start running backwards.....we go with him and he now always stops instead of running backwards to the next county. Yet if the saddle is not involved he will get out of your space with no problem. I also failed to mention he has the same problem with the pad....yet you can take a tarp, raincoat, plastic bags, any other object and he accepts with no problem. Everyone may not want to believe this, but this horse is so smart he is even aware of the clothing you have on.....if I do not have my jeans and boots on, he is much more complacent about putting the pad and saddle and bridle on....I had to show people for them to believe it. I also own a barepack pad called a Natural Ride....has stirrups and a piece that kays up over the withers and locks in so there is no problem mounting from the ground....I have never rode him in it....you can throw that on him all day long...cinch him up (and by the way he is not cinchy), no blowing, snorting, no ducking out. I believe he knows we are not going anywhere with that bareback pad. He has had consistent riding...we live in northern Michigan and he has well over 750 miles on him since being under saddle in March. The ride may be only 4 miles or may be 30 miles. He is in great condition, seems to truly enjoy being out on the trail. We have made progress in so many areas compared to how he came to us. My take has been that he is too smart for his own good as well as he reminds me of a spoiled juvenile that would throw temper tantrums. He lovez people so much he will leave his hay to come see what is going on or see anyone that stops by. I take him for walks like a dog so everything is not work. I pull him out various times of the day to stand tied and just get groomed...he gets full body massages!!! (lucky horse) He loads in the trailer with no problem, great for farrier, you can use a vacuum or blower on him....he just will not get over the saddling and bridling issues....he can be an angel and then with the flip of a switch he is possessed and acts as if he never seen a human before...we have had him saddle good but when he sees the bridle the switch flips. He iis a horse you cannot get upset with...we do not tie him to saddle and bridle...once he broke the 6x6 off we figured someone was going to get hurt....so we just go with him and he will stop. Has anyone had a horse take this long to accept and settle with saddling and bridling? And I should also mention that if you just walk out with a bridle in your hand into the paddock, he is gone....we have to send him to the round pen for a few exercises and turns and then he comes in and will let me put it on...I just want to eliminate all the drama. He is by nature a blowing and snorting horse...nervous initially about new things but accepts quickly and moves on....except for this. It seems he still has that "screw you, I haven't worked for 5 years, why should I start now?" kind of attitude. This is a mostly love, sometimes hate kind of relationship! I have talked extensively with the trainer (who, btw, is highly recommended) and he is afraid at the end of 30 days I will still have an inconsistent horse. We have taken the horse there for him to work with and show us some things to deal with his inconsistencies, so he has already evaluated this horses personality. I still wonder if he is just a juvenile and needs to mature mentally....or am I beating a dead horse because, as I said, there is something not right between the ears! And for the people that believe you dont buy a horse unless the swirl or whorl between the eyes is centered......HIS IS NOT!! Lol
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#20 ·
A few things I failed to mention in my original post...there have been so many interesting observations concerning this horse.....I have almost 20 years experience with horses, and he is truly the smartest horse I have ever had the pleasure AND frustration of working with. He has llearned the round penning exercises with ease....he is completely respectful on the long line as well as loose....does his turns correctly, yields hind quarters, joins up, follows you anywhere, licking his lips, cocks his back leg.....UNTIL he sees there is a saddle involved. Even if he sees the saddle sitting on a stand you will see an immediate change in attitude. Initially if he seen us saddling other horses he would go as far away in the paddock as possible. He will now come up and see what is going on. Now if we saddle him with other horses standing by he is much better than saddling alone. But he usually always tries to "duck out" and shove that shoulder into you or outright try to body slam you...if you ask him to step over in any way he will just start running backwards.....we go with him and he now always stops instead of running backwards to the next county. Yet if the saddle is not involved he will get out of your space with no problem. I also failed to mention he has the same problem with the pad....yet you can take a tarp, raincoat, plastic bags, any other object and he accepts with no problem. Everyone may not want to believe this, but this horse is so smart he is even aware of the clothing you have on.....if I do not have my jeans and boots on, he is much more complacent about putting the pad and saddle and bridle on....I had to show people for them to believe it. I also own a barepack pad called a Natural Ride....has stirrups and a piece that kays up over the withers and locks in so there is no problem mounting from the ground....I have never rode him in it....you can throw that on him all day long...cinch him up (and by the way he is not cinchy), no blowing, snorting, no ducking out. I believe he knows we are not going anywhere with that bareback pad. He has had consistent riding...we live in northern Michigan and he has well over 750 miles on him since being under saddle in March. The ride may be only 4 miles or may be 30 miles. He is in great condition, seems to truly enjoy being out on the trail. We have made progress in so many areas compared to how he came to us. My take has been that he is too smart for his own good as well as he reminds me of a spoiled juvenile that would throw temper tantrums. He lovez people so much he will leave his hay to come see what is going on or see anyone that stops by. I take him for walks like a dog so everything is not work. I pull him out various times of the day to stand tied and just get groomed...he gets full body massages!!! (lucky horse) He loads in the trailer with no problem, great for farrier, you can use a vacuum or blower on him....he just will not get over the saddling and bridling issues....he can be an angel and then with the flip of a switch he is possessed and acts as if he never seen a human before...we have had him saddle good but when he sees the bridle the switch flips. He iis a horse you cannot get upset with...we do not tie him to saddle and bridle...once he broke the 6x6 off we figured someone was going to get hurt....so we just go with him and he will stop. Has anyone had a horse take this long to accept and settle with saddling and bridling? And I should also mention that if you just walk out with a bridle in your hand into the paddock, he is gone....we have to send him to the round pen for a few exercises and turns and then he comes in and will let me put it on...I just want to eliminate all the drama. He is by nature a blowing and snorting horse...nervous initially about new things but accepts quickly and moves on....except for this. It seems he still has that "screw you, I haven't worked for 5 years, why should I start now?" kind of attitude. This is a mostly love, sometimes hate kind of relationship! I have talked extensively with the trainer (who, btw, is highly recommended) and he is afraid at the end of 30 days I will still have an inconsistent horse. We have taken the horse there for him to work with and show us some things to deal with his inconsistencies, so he has already evaluated this horses personality. I still wonder if he is just a juvenile and needs to mature mentally....or am I beating a dead horse because, as I said, there is something not right between the ears! And for the people that believe you dont buy a horse unless the swirl or whorl between the eyes is centered......HIS IS NOT!! Lol
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That is too funny the part about the whorl, I was just reading about that today lol Someone had mentioned that to me a long time ago so I remembered it and looked it up ;-)

I went and looked at a mustang a couple of years back, she had everything except for the saddling down. She was very dark so you could see where the hair had turned white on her whither from a ill fitting saddle. The lady had worked with her for over a year and had decided to sell her and that day she kind of blew up while being saddled. It had been a few months since the horse had done that according to the lady. Maybe the previous owners had him in a ill fitting saddle and didn't realise it and it has stuck in his brain.
 
#10 ·
Prolly get excoriated by some for this, but I'd bring the saddle and pad into the round pen, then I'd lay the horse down. Work on approaching him till he relaxes, then I'd do it with the saddle until he's laying on the ground with his head down with the saddle sitting on his side. I wouldn't let him up till he relaxed. I don't like the process of laying a horse down but it sure conveys the message to their tin can brain. I have only done it once with a very dominant gelding, the change was dramatic to say the least.
 
#11 ·
In the beginning, my horse was nervous about saddling and the beginning of rides. I had a trainer work with him, and she showed me to free lunge him in the round pen with the saddle in the middle. She said to let him come to the middle to rest when he was ready to be by me and the saddle because he needed encouragement. If he left me and the saddle, we encouraged him to move until he was ready to rest by the saddle again. It didn't take long before we could saddle him untied, and it really hasn't been much of an issue since then. When we started saddling him untied, if he tried to take off, we just encouraged him to move until he was ready to come back to the center and get the saddle on. I hope that makes sense.
 
#12 ·
I am in a hurry and so I have not read all of the responses.

IF I were still training for the public and he was brought to me, the very first thing I would do is put 4-way hobbles on him. If he threw himself, I would just keep on training him; because the second thing I would do is lay him down if he did not throw himself.

Laying a horse down or putting 4-way hobbles on a horse 'humbles' a horse more than anything you can do. It would take him off of his 'high horse' immediately.

When a horse is in 4-ways, you walk up quickly, never baby the horse and start throwing a saddle on him like he is an old dude horse. I would completely desensitize him in the 4-ways. I would walk fast, literally throw the pad on him and do the same with the saddle until he is standing there asleep.

If you use 4-ways with a simple set of front leg hobbles, you can then hobble his front feet any time you want. If he does not stand still, slap on the hobbles.

I really think laying him down is the best option, but that takes an experienced hand. 4-way hobbles are easy to use and anyone can do it. Either way, you need to stop babying him, you need to throw pads and saddles on him and you need to use a sack full of tin cans and a whip or stick with a plastic bag on it and you need to make him like them all.
 
#13 ·
Paragraphs are your friend. Your thread and subsequent post are impossible to read easily due to no paragraphs.

I would say as much as anything, it is the handling of this horse that is at fault, in that you and horse may never mesh, or no one ever may do well with him.

Sell him, or hire a trainer, but if your skills are causing some or all of this? All the training in the world will not help you with this horse, if you aren't also getting the training.
 
#14 ·
I apologize to Palomine for the lack of paragraphs. I rarely spend time on the internet and this is the first forum I have ever joined...I surely did not mean to offend anyone by my lack of proper form.

Thanks for all your advice so far...and Cherie I really appreciate your input...and I feel you are absolutely right. A couple months ago I had front hobbled him because it never seemed like he was afraid...he just seemed obstinate....and he never moved...he never blew or snorted...he stood like a rock.

But the advice I had gotten in regards to that was it was just the wrong approach.

I remembered some years ago being at a training facility whereas a trainer was laying a horse down because of dominance issues. I continued to follow this horses progress and it was remarkable. I just ordered a dvd from one of the reknowned trainers on this subject but wanted some more input.

Again, thanks to all!
 
#15 ·
If I was in the OP's situation, I would probably decide to sell the horse to someone who would enjoy that sort of a challenge. I dunno what happened when I turned 40, but the gosh darn ground got hard-I know it isn't me I used to be able to fall over with a certain amount of grace but the closer I get to 50 even the arena sand hurts ;-)

My take anymore is that life is too short to ride a crazy (or in this case a too darn smart) horse. Your mileage many vary, this is just my opinion.
 
#70 ·
I dunno what happened when I turned 40, but the gosh darn ground got hard-I know it isn't me I used to be able to fall over with a certain amount of grace but the closer I get to 50 even the arena sand hurts ;-)

My take anymore is that life is too short to ride a crazy (or in this case a too darn smart) horse. Your mileage many vary, this is just my opinion.
I am with Dim Sum. I am only 30 and I've already hit that point where the arena sand is too solid a surface to repeatedly collide with, and I am not an arena rider!

I am also of the mind that I believe this super smart horse is dreadfully bored.
 
#16 ·
Cowgirl, Bring a pan with lots of goodies and allow him to approach. Move to the rail and circle him. Ideally he should move his hindquarters to keep an eye on you. If he ignores you when you are almost directly behind you, run toward him (not so close to get kicked) waving your arms and making a loud shhhh noise at the same time and scare him off the feed. Stand at the feed and claim it and let him run around. When he stops walk toward him, turn toward the pan and invite him to eat. Repeat this until he will watch you with both eyes as you circle behind him. Why you are doing this: in the herd, the leader has a big job so it is easier and usually more desirable to be a follower. The leader watches for predators and decides when to scram. The follower gets to eat and has to only watch the leader. When you chase him off his food you are showing dominance, yet are fair about it and invite him back to eat. It is most desirable that you can circle, or attempt to circle behind him in either direction, back and forth and his eyes will remain glued on you as he eats. You have just heightened your status as the more dominant animal. This is a good exercise to repeat periodically as a brush up. When you wish to saddle him, in the pen, of course, approach as tho you are saddling a long timer, no pussy footin or he will think something is up. With your back to his shoulder, pad in right hand, swing it gently side to side to set up a rhythm then toss it on his back and ignore his behaviour. If he wants to circle you on the lead, let him. It's better if it's his decision. He'll stop. Do the same with the saddle as you did the pad. Don't try to set the saddle on, swing it up there. I've seen more horses duck away from a lifted saddle than a swinging one.
 
#17 ·
I would agree with a) there may be some personality issues at play here; and b) having a trainer lay him down, or other would be good. I also have a very dominant gelding, many trainers have tried to put the "fear of God" in him and he basically laughs at them. For me and my current coach (we both work "with" him) he is extremely workmanlike and goes to work every day, without fail. It was not always this way though. It took us a while to figure out what to compromise on, we have a bit of an agreement and I am very aware of where his "line" is. Trust is a huge, huge thing for him, as is respect and not fear.

He had my previous farrier's number on speed dial, and ended up with severe behavioral issues for the farrier. My current farrier (who I hired after previous farrier refused to work on the horse without sedation - I refused to sedate the horse) was getting no where with traditional techniques to get him to simply stand for shoeing (which he had done prior to previous farrier for the first 7 years of his life - all pain was ruled out as well) and layed him down. The horse has tested, very occasionally since he was layed down but a voice aid settles him now.

So, I would highly recommend finding someone that can work with dominant types, and/or get an experienced trainer to lay him down.

Good luck!
 
#18 · (Edited)
I will second what Cherie has suggested, probably laying him down will be your best bet, but it takes an experienced person to do that properly.

Other than that, I would like to mention that some horses are always a bit...strange. My Dad's horse, Pokey, is much like you have described your horse, except without the dominance issues. Pokey has been ridden and used for the better part of 6 years and he still often acts like he has never seen a human when it comes time to catch/saddle him. He'll freak out about being touched when you go to catch him but calms right down as soon as the halter's on. He'll fidget and move around and "blow" when you bring the saddle out but as soon as you toss it up there, he's fine. In spite of all the training that my Dad gave him and how much he's been handled (never mis-handled), he is still that way. If you try to force or push the issue in a timeframe that he isn't ready for, he'll tear up himself and everything around him trying to get away. With him, there simply is no "do it over and over until he calms down".

Once you get him caught, get him saddled, or get on his back, he's fine and acts like any good old broke ranch horse. We have just about decided that there is something wrong with him mentally, some form of bipolar disorder or something because there are times when he's perfectly calm and easy to handle, but that switch can flip at any moment. He's never been purposefully dangerous, but handling him is a lot more dangerous than handling any of our other broke horses and you have to really know when to push and when to back off.
 
#19 ·
I agree with what cherie said as well. I also wonder if you have ever put the saddle and pad on the round pen rail and worked him in there passing by and looking at it until he relaxes? Also every time you saddle do you always ride?

If it were me, I would round pen him with the saddle and pad on the rail until he relaxes and then saddle him up and do the cinch up enough that the saddle wont slip but is comfortable and leave him like that all day...tied up and not ridden (of course you will have a bucket of water for him.) Do the same they next day and see if you have made any progress. I am a firm believer in tying a horse for teaching respect and patience.

I would also have a trainer guide you in laying the horse down for the first time for the horses safety but more importantly yours given the way you have described him. I would not try it after watching a dvd. Have the trainer do it first and show you how to do it.
 
#22 ·
Obviously there is something he has against saddles. Perhaps he's sour, perhaps he's nervous.. who knows. But it needs to be investigated by a 3rd party IMOP.
While this is how we think, it is not how horses' minds work. It is one reason so many people have so much trouble dealing with difficult horses. They want to make a horse into a 'logical thinker' and they just aren't. OUR logic says that a horse has had a bad experience. just like people making the leap that a head-shy horse has been beaten in the face or head, people think horses develop irrational fears from incidents in their past. This is not always so. Horses are real bad about making the wrong association somewhere along the line and the more they do something, the more they convince themselves that they should do it.

When you train for the public, you get brought all kinds of horses that have convinced themselves of some irrational fear. It may have started with some insignificant little incident or maybe nothing at all. Once they have decided something is bad, all of the 'normal' ways a horse is desensitized and trained just do not work. You have to do something to break the cycle. This is when 'restraints' like 4-way hobbles and 'laying one down' will somehow let you re-program the horse and be able to 'get into his head'.

I have taken in horses that were on their last chance and were literally headed to the killer buyer. After using restraints on them, they just turned off the behavior like turning off a light switch. I cannot explain just how it worked, but I can tell that it worked where nothing else had ever worked. Some of these horses had owners that had spent months and even years trying to convince them that they were not going to hurt them or that a certain object or situation was not going to kill them. Nothing worked until they were re-programed with restraints or laying them down.

The recent article published in the Western Horseman is the best technical description of what happens in a horse's mind when it is laid down. All I have ever known about it is that is also works in an illogical way. It works far beyond what we logical thinkers think it should. It is like one horse is laid down and a different horse gets back up when YOU let it get back up.
 
#24 ·
The recent article published in the Western Horseman is the best technical description of what happens in a horse's mind when it is laid down. All I have ever known about it is that is also works in an illogical way. It works far beyond what we logical thinkers think it should. It is like one horse is laid down and a different horse gets back up when YOU let it get back up.
That article was awesome Cherie! Loved the insight on how the fear thresholds move.. Good stuff!

As far as this case, there are horses that are too far gone to help, some that have some kind of physical/genetic issue that can make them unstable and dangerous, and then there are the "Damien" horses. Not sure what their problem is but they are possesed of evil..lol
In my 44 years I have seen maybe 3 of these horses that just aren't worth the effort, or simply cannot be worked with.. and one of those was iffy, so call it 2.
Horses cannot be reasoned with, they cannot be negotiated with, they must be dominated. The natural horsemanship trainers do us one disservice (now put the bricks down, I train using these principles) in that the partnership they talk about is decidely unequal.. when most folks hear "Partnership" they think of two equals that bring equal things to the table. This simply isn't so, training by definition is "getting a horse to do something it wouldn't do naturally".
So the horse it an unequal partner, it doesn't want to carry a rider all over creation. It never asked to pull a buggy, get a shot, and be sprayed for flies. Has anyone ever seen a horse try to convey that it wants shoes nailed to its feet?
Our equine "partners" get no say so in the direction of travel, the length of time we work them, the day we choose to work them or how far they have to run. This is, other than the various implements we attach to them, the very way herd dynamics works. It is the dominant horse that decides all these things, and the alpha is only occasionally challenged. So we must become dominant and the horse must submit.
Unquestioned authority will be a foundation you can build on to get horses to do amazing things, but just like that cranky old herd mare, you have to be willing to go to some great lengths to establish the heirarchy. Most times this is simple pressure/release, but there are times when overwhelming fear, and yes even pain are the motivators of submission.
It is ridiculous to believe that horse will not trust you if you inflict pain.. ever seen a herd member that mistrusted the alpha? I assure you they have inflicted pain.
Now don't think I am giving license to beat a horse into submission, and I'm not saying that inflicting pain overcomes confusion, you must be clear in your instructions, but folks you must be dominant.. and be that unquestionably so.
 
#23 ·
If I were you I would probably let a trainer work with him for a little while and give you an opinion. It is quite possible the two of you just really don't click or something about your program just isn't working for this horse.

In terms of when to quit - a friend and I were discussing this the other day due to some issues with her gelding. We decided that its time to give up when you start making excuses not to go to the barn and/or ride because the problems with a specific horse have taken the joy out of it for you.
 
#27 ·
I have the same issue with a filly I've owned from the time she was about 6 months old. She's no 3 and no better. I have her on Craigs List for $350 and I have a WHOLE lot more in her than that. The trainer sent her home last week because she was going backwards in her training. For 30 days she seemed to make some progress and then.........pffffffffffft. Since that's basically the path she's followed here at home, I went and got her and put her up for sale. She pretty much knocks me down or injures me every time I handle her, and after 3 years, I've come to the conclusion, it's not me it's her. Time for her to go. If she doesn't sell by the end of the month, she can go to the auction, I'm done.

There are way too many nice horses out there to waste time on one who doesn't want to get on the same page as you.
 
#28 ·
And there Dream is the key, it is about you the owner/trainer.. when are you finished? It just doesn't matter how much potential a horse has (or doesn't have) It all boils down to when have you had enough.
 
#29 ·
And there Dream is the key, it is about you the owner/trainer.. when are you finished? It just doesn't matter how much potential a horse has (or doesn't have) It all boils down to when have you had enough.
That's it in a nutshell!

When this filly arrived the first thing she did was double barrel kick me and hang me over the top of a 5 foot pipe corral panel. My sane side said I should call the transporter back and load her up and send her back where she came. My stubborn side said that I'd waited 3 years for this filly and she just needed love, handling, consistancy and training. A couple of friends who met this filly when she first got here encouraged me to get rid of her by whatever means because they felt she was dangerous. I didn't agree and kept trying. Well........3 years later and nothing has approved appreciably......My sane side is now saying, "I told you so" and now I'm listening.
 
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