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Why is my mare doing this?

5K views 47 replies 16 participants last post by  CLaPorte432 
#1 ·
I'm not sure where to post this, because I'm not sure which one of us is the problem. I am going to assume it's me and how I'm riding, so I'll post it here.

Someone took a couple pictures of my ride today, and my mare is doing this in a few of them...the mouth thing that she has going on (please see photo below). Is it my hands? Something wrong with her or with the bit? She had her teeth done last September (2013). I'm riding her in a loose ring snaffle w/ french link. Or is she just fighting me (she doesn't collect very nicely, she likes to look around at EVERYTHING).

If anyone knows why she's doing this and what I can do to fix it, I'd appreciate the input!!


 
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#3 ·
She looks really uncomfortable. And she is not being collected properly. Her back is hollow...neck is not properly developed. Your hands are too low and it looks like your trying to pull her head down.

Has she been seen by a chiropractor? She just looks uncomfortable.
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#4 ·
She looks really uncomfortable. And she is not being collected properly. Her back is hollow...neck is not properly developed. Your hands are too low and it looks like your trying to pull her head down.

Has she been seen by a chiropractor? She just looks uncomfortable.
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Yep, I agree. As far as one can tell from just one picture, she is not collected, but trying to find the position of least discomfort.
Try riding her lots of long and low, get her relaxed and get her back swinging before even attempting to "collect" her in a frame.
 
#5 ·
this horse shows every evidence of being fiddle down into a frame, and her bracing against the contact, coming behind it , hollowing out her back and being very uncomfortable about the whole way of going.

your position in that photo has , unfortunately, a lot to do with her moving that way. you are falling forward with your upper body, and pooching your butt out , which makes your seatbones point backward, which makes you want to fall forward, and makes your horse want to trail his hind legs out behind, hollow the back and fall onto the forehanc. It creates a kind of hollow in the middle, called by some the "Man-trap", where your weight and energy tend to go, and tend to pull the hrose back and down into that same hole. the dip in front of the withers of your horse indicates that she may have been moving this way for some time. the lower neck bulges out forward, while the upper neck comes back toward the rider. in your case, it is not extreme by any means, and there are small adjustements you can do to make changes in her way of going.


make sure you do not roll you pelivs forward, keep your seatbones pointed down. look up, raise your hands (do not try to get her to lower her head by lowering your hands), get her to feel the bit, and then work on getting her to carry it forward and downward, ( the long and low that another poster mentioned).

of course, if she is really fussing about her mouth, before you do anything, consider that she might have a dental issue, or a bit issue.
 
#10 ·
First of all, you two are not even close to collection. Collection is something that takes a very long time to develop, and is not just tucking the horses head in. I would recommend following the training scale which is what truly leads to collection- rhythm, relaxation, contact, impulsion, straightness, and finally collection. Before developing relaxation, you develop rhythm, relaxation before contact, etc.

Rythm means two things - having an even tempo and being forward to the leg. Relaxation is when the horse is relaxed. His back is swinging with legs reaching under him. Contact is keeping a soft, steady rein contact that your horse is accepting and reaching into.

I think you guys are at relaxation. Your horse is hollow and stiff all throughout the topline. Like someone else said, I would recommend doing lots of long and low work. Thismeans lots of free walk and stretchy trot, getting your horse reaching down into the contact. For the free walk you don't need to have any contact, ideally you are at the buckle of the reins with the horses head lowered (around wither height but depends greatly on horse), he is walking freely, back swinging, and hind legs swinging under him. Stretchy trot is similar, but you have slight contact, and it is at the trot.

Please, work with a good dressage trainer. You have much to improve with your position, and you are doing your horse more bad than good riding with contact. I would go more into detail, but I am on my phone and have to go. Good luck!
 
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#14 ·
Thanks for all the tips. I'm also reading the references that were posted. I appreciate the input and will take these tips and monitor my/our progress :)

Please, work with a good dressage trainer. You have much to improve with your position, and you are doing your horse more bad than good riding with contact.
I do wish it was so simple, but as I am in the middle of a divorce and my business is in the pooper, I'm not so fortunate to be able to work with a trainer right now (and the last one I worked with was a mess, so that doesn't help where I am currently as a rider). I'm happy to be able to continue (for now) affording to keep my horse. I hope to start working with a trainer again soon, and I'm sure that will aid fixing our problems much quicker. For now, I just ask questions and do my best on my own.
 
#11 ·
Back to the mouth. another thing is that you might have the bit too high in her mouth. they used to teach "two wrinkles " in the corner of the mouth. But what I have been taught and seen is that one small wrinkle , or none at all , is the best. high enough that when hanging down it does not bang the front teeth, but low enough that when the rein is engaged, the bit does not go back and hit the molars, either. horses learn to like the bit in a position that works for them, but having it so high in his/her mouth that the horse cannot pick it up and hold it with her tongue will feel gagging. Also, a thick bit, once said to be the 'gentlest' bit is often really hard for the horse to have in the mouth since it takes up more room than is available .

So, aside from rider positional things the bit is to be considered, too.
 
#12 ·
I didn't read all the posts so if someone has mentioned this I apologize. There should be a straight line from your elbow to the bit. Your hands are too low and it looks like you might be using the reins to support yourself, or at the least, to pull the horses's head down. Your hands need to be independent of your seat and body. Also, you should hold your hand as if you were holding a baby bird--gently so you don't squish it--not tight and hard.
 
#13 ·
I agree that this is more rider than horse.

First thing I noticed was your hands and how hard you are holding the reins and how you are fixing your hands down.

When you hold the reins pinch the rein between your forefinger and your thumb, the other fingers should be very relaxed and just used by moving the a fraction for guidance.
Wrists should be soft and supple and the whole arm like a piece of elastic to give and take as the horse moves its head.
Tiny has made good pointers about the rest of your position. You need to forget about her head placement, do lots of work at a sitting trot without stirrups to get your seat bones under you and to make you independent in your seat.
 
#15 ·
I can't help much more with the actual topic as I think what's been seen and pointed out is spot on already, however I do understand the unable to have lessons part, I have that struggle too, for cost reasons mainly (student, horse bills etc come before lessons) but what I would suggest, is that when you can, perhaps set a video camera on a post if nobody is able to video for you, and video your ride or at least parts of it.. That way you can see what changes or doesn't change throughout your rides, and you can go well ok, I need to work on this, or, this is fine I don't need to change that.. A lot of the time during a ride I may get frustrated with the horse for "not cooperating" and I will go back over the video later that night and go oh.... That wasn't the horses fault... I gotta work on that one.
 
#24 ·
Impulsion is where the horse is pushing from behind into the bit. Your horse is evading the bit and being ridden front to back and not back to front.. which is where impulsion comes from.

It takes a long time to get through all the steps in this chart. Months and months.. because it requires the horse to learn and to develop the muscles to do those things and seek to work from behind.
 
#25 ·
What is the 'this' that you are referring too? The slightly open lips? Difficult to see in the pix, but perhaps the bit is a little low or the noseband..
? (Is she older? The teeth become more outward). The tension in the contracted nostrils can have many causes (easier to see moving). Are you talking about the slightly higher posture? The horse should be up/open/folding the hind leg joints...so that is ok. The tension in that posture is because the lowered hands are putting pain on the bars. You must be upright as well (keeping straight line to horse's mouth...not high hands per se).
 
#26 ·
First of all, I LOVE your attitude! You are willing and able to listen to the help you are being offered and stay positive about that. Do you know how rare that is?

The advice you have been given is very good. You need to relax your whole arm/shoulder so that your hand can unfreeze. You need to be able yo absorb all of the movement of the horse's head with your arms so that you can maintain the SAME amount of contact at all times. Contact will change while giving a half halt, but at all other times there must be 100% consistency in the amount of contact you keep.

I suspect, from the photo, that you lock your arms, which will lock your hand. Then, when the horse moves its head, it will hit that bit with every step. That is very destructive to the acceptance of the bit. The horse will be uncomfortable and will never want to move onto the bit and relax.

Here is an exercise I will do with a new student who has this problem. You can substitute any friend willing to do this.

I will stand at the horse's head facing the student.... I will hold the reins in each hand near the bit....I will have the student hold the reins as if riding.....I will tell the student to apply contact......then I will move the bit forward and backwards slightly, mimicking the movement of the horse's head while walking.....then I will have the student unlock their shoulders and arms until they can follow that movement while keeping the SAME amount of contact at all times.....I will keep moving the reins until the rider can absorb all the movement while maintaining that contact......then I will have the rider practise changing the amount of contact while still absorbing all of the movement.....keep doing this until the student can adjust contact immediately and keep consistent contact at all times.

This will really help, but locked arms are a difficult habit to break. It will take time for it to become a new habit. Keep at it, though, because the horse can never fully accept the bit until they have a kinder place that they can trust. The amount of contact is rarely a problem for them, as long as that contact is consistent.

As for the long and low, it ia a way of asking the horse to stretch forward into the bridle with little contact. The horse is relaxed, moving nicely forward and seeking the bit.

When working on the horse accepting the bit, if the horse is flexing the correct muscles going onto the bit, these muscles get tired quickly, at first. It is good to allow them to stretch often. I will often do this exercise with a green horse. I will ask the horse to move forward onto the bit, asking them to flex the correct muscles. I will keep them moving nicely forward to exercise these muscles. After a moment, I will slowly allow the reins to lengthen, still moving them forward. If this is done properly, they horse will maintain his balance and be able to move longer and lower. If they lose their balance, they were not properly forward and will fall onto their forehand. I keep working with them until they can stretch longer and lower and still maintain their balance.

The horse will be moving much like this,



As you can see, he is stretching forward still moving into the bit. He is comfortable with the contact, as it is so consistent it never bumps him in the mouth. He is seeking to maintain that contact. If he hot the bit, he would back away from the bit and cease moving forward.

BTW, If I were to critique my own photo (which I often do to illustrate a point as we can't always be perfect) I would say my hands are a tad low. I should have them an inch or two higher to have that straight line from elbow to bit that I always want to see.


To show how important this contact is, I had a student at a clinic (she allows me to use this photo) who just couldn't get her hands moving well with the horse. As a result, the horse wouldn't move forward into the bridle. The horse has zero impulsion moving forward.



I got on the horse and within about five minutes the horse trusted the bit again.



After doing the exercise I explained above with the reins, I had the owner better able to have more consistent contact.



Her hands are in a much better position (still a bit too low, but this is, as said, a hard habit to break) and are starting to move with him. The horse is beginning to trust her more. After the trust is there, then she will start asking for more impulsion, which is missing here.


I hope this helps!
 
#28 ·
First of all, I LOVE your attitude! You are willing and able to listen to the help you are being offered and stay positive about that. Do you know how rare that is?

The advice you have been given is very good. You need to relax your whole arm/shoulder so that your hand can unfreeze. You need to be able yo absorb all of the movement of the horse's head with your arms so that you can maintain the SAME amount of contact at all times. Contact will change while giving a half halt, but at all other times there must be 100% consistency in the amount of contact you keep.

I suspect, from the photo, that you lock your arms, which will lock your hand. Then, when the horse moves its head, it will hit that bit with every step. That is very destructive to the acceptance of the bit. The horse will be uncomfortable and will never want to move onto the bit and relax.

Here is an exercise I will do with a new student who has this problem. You can substitute any friend willing to do this.

I will stand at the horse's head facing the student.... I will hold the reins in each hand near the bit....I will have the student hold the reins as if riding.....I will tell the student to apply contact......then I will move the bit forward and backwards slightly, mimicking the movement of the horse's head while walking.....then I will have the student unlock their shoulders and arms until they can follow that movement while keeping the SAME amount of contact at all times.....I will keep moving the reins until the rider can absorb all the movement while maintaining that contact......then I will have the rider practise changing the amount of contact while still absorbing all of the movement.....keep doing this until the student can adjust contact immediately and keep consistent contact at all times.

This will really help, but locked arms are a difficult habit to break. It will take time for it to become a new habit. Keep at it, though, because the horse can never fully accept the bit until they have a kinder place that they can trust. The amount of contact is rarely a problem for them, as long as that contact is consistent.

As for the long and low, it ia a way of asking the horse to stretch forward into the bridle with little contact. The horse is relaxed, moving nicely forward and seeking the bit.

When working on the horse accepting the bit, if the horse is flexing the correct muscles going onto the bit, these muscles get tired quickly, at first. It is good to allow them to stretch often. I will often do this exercise with a green horse. I will ask the horse to move forward onto the bit, asking them to flex the correct muscles. I will keep them moving nicely forward to exercise these muscles. After a moment, I will slowly allow the reins to lengthen, still moving them forward. If this is done properly, they horse will maintain his balance and be able to move longer and lower. If they lose their balance, they were not properly forward and will fall onto their forehand. I keep working with them until they can stretch longer and lower and still maintain their balance.

The horse will be moving much like this,



As you can see, he is stretching forward still moving into the bit. He is comfortable with the contact, as it is so consistent it never bumps him in the mouth. He is seeking to maintain that contact. If he hot the bit, he would back away from the bit and cease moving forward.

BTW, If I were to critique my own photo (which I often do to illustrate a point as we can't always be perfect) I would say my hands are a tad low. I should have them an inch or two higher to have that straight line from elbow to bit that I always want to see.


To show how important this contact is, I had a student at a clinic (she allows me to use this photo) who just couldn't get her hands moving well with the horse. As a result, the horse wouldn't move forward into the bridle. The horse has zero impulsion moving forward.



I got on the horse and within about five minutes the horse trusted the bit again.



After doing the exercise I explained above with the reins, I had the owner better able to have more consistent contact.



Her hands are in a much better position (still a bit too low, but this is, as said, a hard habit to break) and are starting to move with him. The horse is beginning to trust her more. After the trust is there, then she will start asking for more impulsion, which is missing here.


I hope this helps!

This is incredibly helpful information, thank you so much!! Thanks for spending the time to explain in such detail, I really really appreciate it :)
 
#27 ·
since your student has kindly offered you the use of her photo for instructional purposes, may I point out something else I see in the photo?



the rider does not have her leg under her, and is not posting off of her own base of support, but is likely levering up from her knee somewhat, and utiliting the reins for support.

In this photo (admittedly, at a different place in the posting cycle)



the rider has her leg under her and is posting off of her solid base of support. she could completely release the rein and she would not fall backward.
 
#30 ·
Sorry OP, hijacking for just 2 seconds ;-)

Allison... ever thought of coming to New Zealand?? Seriously :lol: I've had lessons with several different trainers now and not one of them uses that teaching technique, we need more trainers like you over here!
 
#36 ·
Much better.

Don't rest your knuckles on the horse's neck. Many people do that as a reference point, in an effort to keep their hands still. It will keep you from keeping good contact, though.

You and your horse are not bracing against each other. Once you can keep your contact consistent, it will be time to add contact. You have a very loose contact in the photo. Your hand could be a tad higher and a little wider, to keep it off the neck. Then, as you add contact, you must add leg to bring the horse forward onto the bridle. If your contact isn't consistent and able to keep constant contact (absorbing all movement while keeping the SAME contact) you will find the horse bracing again. Contact, without forward impulsion, can cause the horse to back off of the bridle.

Your new hand looks much softer. Practice with constant contact, then start adding a tiny bit more contact and leg. Only add to that when you can do that little bit more better and better.

BTW, the horse needs more bend to help it balance better. When it is better balanced, it will be easier to get the horse off of the forehand.

Too bad you live about as far from me as you can get in this country......
 
#37 ·
Thank you thank you. I do realize the loose rein, I think I am doing that in an effort to not pull on her with the hard hands, but I do understand what you're explaining about adding contact and making it consistent. I will work on positioning my hands better as well, I didn't even realize I was resting them on her, haha!

When you talk about adding leg, do you just mean equal pressure/squeezing with both legs? And is the pressure applied from my calfs?

Thanks again for your help, I really do appreciate it! We do have a very good dressage trainer/3-day eventer on site at my barn, and I'm hoping to be able to afford lessons in the near future. Sometimes I just watch lessons for now :) It really helps here though to be told what I am specifically doing wrong. Thank you!
 
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