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Will your horse respond to your bit?

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  • What is a good alternative to a cathedral bit for my horse
  • Training cathedral bit

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    10-10-2010, 01:59 AM
  #181
Foal
Quote:
Originally Posted by wild_spot    
Pot, meet kettle.



I have seen faces rubbed raw and bleeding from bitless options - But I have never condemned all bitless bridles as uncomfortable and painful. That would be illogical and ignorant.



I beg to differ. You stated in your first posts that ALL bits cause pain. Do you think causing pain is cruel? If so, (And I hope so), then you ARE saying that everyone who uses a bit is cruel. Not in so many words but the intent is there.

That is why people are getting frustrated - You haven't said it outright, but it is certainly implied.

*

I'm not swayed either way - I generally ride in bits, but am planning on a bitless for one of my horses for endurance for ease of drinking and eating. I can ride my show horse brideless and bareback, but show him in a bit and saddle. I don't care one bit what other people choose to do with their horses unless it is blatantly cruel. I spend a lot of time educating myself on bit function and mouth conformation and spend a great deal of effort to make sure each of my horses is in the bit that most suits their personality and mouth conformation.
Having somebody manipulate your words "You haven't said it outright, but it is certainly implied." and "You stated in your first posts that ALL bits cause pain. Do you think causing pain is cruel? If so, (And I hope so), then you ARE saying that everyone who uses a bit is cruel. Not in so many words but the intent is there." is very annoying. You are taking my first post and adding to what I've said not when in fact I have changed what I have said because I have actually listened to what others have said which is something you clearly haven't done. Yeah obviously if a bitless doesn't fit it will cause rubbing, but you know what that is if they don't fit bits can cause that irregardless! I am tired of being antagonized by all of you. A person should be able to share their opinion on a forum! If on this forum you can't then maybe I made a mistake by joining. Isn't it free will say what you want? I hadn't been rude to anybody, but now I am tired of not being treated the same respect. I do not like bits. I don't and that won't change. I have exhausted this subject to the nth degree and I have listened to all of your opinions and shared my own and the only reason my opinion is being picked on is because it is different than most other peoples' So if you have a problem with my opinion I don't care because its my opinion and I am entitled to it just like you are to yours. Bits in my mind suck. I do believe they cause the horse discomfort you believe they don't...OKAY Different opinions!! I am not asking you to change and you are not asking me to that is how it goes! Considering that there is no right in the world for anybody to be frustrated with me UNLESS they are trying to change my views which will never happen.
     
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    10-10-2010, 02:13 AM
  #182
Trained
I'm sorry you think i'm manipulating your words. I wasn't offended by your words at all - Just pointing out why others may be. You have said numerous times you think all bits cause pain, or did I read wrong? That was all my pbservation was based on. If you believe all bits cause pain, then it logically follows that all those who ride with bits are causing pain. That, and that alone, is why people have taken offense.

Quote:
Yeah obviously if a bitless doesn't fit it will cause rubbing, but you know what that is if they don't fit bits can cause that irregardless!
Had nothing to do with fit, and everything to do with bad hands. Bitless can cause just as much pain and discomfort as a bit - bad hands are bad hands, wether attached to a bit, sidepull or halter.

Quote:
Considering that there is no right in the world for anybody to be frustrated with me UNLESS they are trying to change my views which will never happen.
Well you seem to be frustrated with me, so are you trying to change my views?

I don't really care wether you ride your horse in a bit, no bit, nothing at all - As long as you do it well.

This forum is a fantastic place - only a few people seem to feel attacked, and generally they are the common denominator.

Quote:
I do believe they cause the horse discomfort you believe they don't...
I actually never said anything about wether I believe they cause pain or not. Not sure where you got that idea.

I actually agree somewhat - many horses are in pain because of bits. However it is not the fault of the bit but the person on the other end - Wether it be bad fitting, not taking into account mouth conformation, not understanding how a certain bit works, or plain bad hands. A well fitted bit that is suited to the horses personality and level of training with a sympathetic rider attached to the reins is a wonderful tool. Same goes for bitless - A well fitted bitless option that is suited to the horses personality and level of training with a sympathetic rider attached to the reins is also a great tool.
     
    10-10-2010, 06:07 AM
  #183
Yearling
You are so against bits and spurs, but you say that is because of things you have seen and read online. What in particularly have you seen? People ripping on horse's mouths with a curb bit in? People digging their spurs into the side of the horse? Well this isn't what the equipment was meant for believe it or not. As many others have pointed out, it is the idiocy of the rider who is using these devices this way. So therefore what do you actually have against these devices?? Is it the devices or the rides that you are against?

Bits and spurs are used for refinement, as a couple others have said, you use these to be able to give the slightest cue and get an instant response. I started my horse in a halter, then moved to a hackamore, then moved to a snaffle, and am now just starting to work her back and forth between a snaffle and correctional bit. I will be soon adding spurs to my training as well. While in the halter I could get her to do the same things, I can achieve the same results in a curb bit now using a 1/10 of the pressure with my hands, making my horse look like I barely have to cue her to get her to respond. She's not doing this off pain, she's doing it because she's a horse that needs a very light cue that is being trained properly. I can use spurs with a 1/10 of the pressure and get the same results and using just leg pressures.

That is the purpose of these devices...you have your opinion of riding bitless and bareback, but that is what works for you, but you are putting down other's training devices because of your personal experience with them. I'm **** sure that any of us that have been defensive in these posts have never caused a horse's mouth to bleed, caused tissue damage, etc. or left scars on their sides from spurs.
     
    10-10-2010, 07:55 AM
  #184
Green Broke
Quote:
Originally Posted by mliponoga    

That is the purpose of these devices...you have your opinion of riding bitless and bareback, but that is what works for you, but you are putting down other's training devices because of your personal experience with them. I'm **** sure that any of us that have been defensive in these posts have never caused a horse's mouth to bleed, caused tissue damage, etc. or left scars on their sides from spurs.
Bingo :)
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    10-10-2010, 07:55 AM
  #185
Green Broke
People aren't "attacking" you because you ride bitless and bareback. There are TONS of other riders on here who do the same who don't get a bit of lip from anyone. Everyone has an opinion and that opinion should be respected; HOWEVER, when you come here spouting off that people who use bits harm their horses, all my respect for you goes out the window. Because, believe it or not, that does show your lack of knowledge. It isn't the bit that "harms" the horse, it's the hands on the other end. Like someone said above, you can wreck a horse's face in a bitless just as fast as you can wreck their mouth with a bit. It's not about what is on the horse's face or in their mouth,it's about the hands who hold the reins.
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    10-10-2010, 08:21 AM
  #186
Foal
EmilyRosie, you have mentioned several times that you ride without a saddle. Saddles are designed for the horse's comfort. While you are fit, lightweight and agile, riding without a saddle does not cause a horse much discomfort. But for the majority of riders who are getting older, heavier and arthritic and lose their agility because they are stuck in offices every day, riding without a saddle is actually cruel to the horse.

A saddle has a gullet. This clears the horse's spine. So the weight of the rider is distributed along the long, strong muscles either side of the horse's back. Conditioning a young horse for riding is all about strengthening these muscles. When you ride without a saddle, your weight is pressing directly on to the horses spine. Also, as you get less agile, it becomes more difficult to maintain balance as your body does not respond as quickly. Unbalanced riders are extremely uncomfortable for horses, but a saddle will assist the rider to maintain balance and that increases comfort for the horse.

When I backed my first pony - I was in my 20s, I wasn't lucky enough to have a horse of my own until I could afford to buy and keep it for myself - I was filled with trepidation. Even tho' I had spend years ground training him, I wondered how he would take it. He was fine, and stayed fine, did seem to be really pleased about it.

Now, many years later, I have started enough youngsters to realise that for the majority of horses, being ridden is just a big "so what?". Ride them, don't ride them, most of them don't care (provided they are not locked in a stall 24/7). It is just not a big issue because it is not important to them. A lot of working horses do really seem to love their work. I had one pony who gave every appearance of trying to put her own tack on. That was very funny to watch.
     
    10-10-2010, 08:27 AM
  #187
Green Broke
There is a common theme here, Emily, that you should be taking away from all of this, which many of us have mentioned...it's not the equipment itself that harms the horse, it is the hands of the rider on the end of the reins/legs, etc. If you don't know how to properly use a bit (by NOT ripping on the horse's mouth, as others have mentioned they are for REFINED cues, barely there and hardly noticeable), then you shouldn't be using a bit. At the same time, if you're going to do the same thing in a bitless which uses pressure on the face for the cues, you are going to have the same problem.

The bottom line is that as Sunny mentioned, people take offense when you make blanket statements like "All bits are painful"...that would be like me saying "All bitless bridles cause pain and I believe they are terrible, so I don't use them...but YOU can do whatever you want, it's just my opinion"...it's like the last bit is used as a disclaimer so you don't get attacked. If you have a strong opinion as you say you do, that's fine, OWN it...but don't try to hide behind a statement like the above. And be prepared to hear some arguments when you state that something everyone else uses without issue is causing their beloved horses pain and suffering.

My personal experience is that my horse has no problem with bits, when they are used in my hands or my trainer's hands, or someone else who is light and soft and knows how to use them. BUT I tried her recently in a figure 8 bridle, which uses some of the same pressure that a bitless uses on the face...my horse HATED it! She threw her head around even at the slightest touch and even after a few days of trying it, I still got the same reaction from her....she also hates if you have a regular noseband too tight, you have to leave it loose with her. It's her personal preference, because every horse is different. She hates pressure on her nose/face...so a bitless would never work for her. She has no issues with her bit though. It's what works for her. But you will never hear me telling everyone else that figure 8 bridles and all bridles that use pressure like that are bad and cause pain. They just don't work for MY own horse -- doesn't mean they won't work for others.

I hope this thread doesn't leave such a sour taste in your mouth that you never post here again...this is one of the best horse forums out there, and I personally have made great friends on here and learned a lot. You just need to realize that when blanket statements are made, others are going to get defensive. If you're okay with that (doesn't seem like you are from your posts though), then fine make them all day long, some do on here. But if you just want to learn and share your thoughts, please understand the difference between your personal opinion/what works for you and your horses and blanket statements categorizing others' methods/equipment as painful/bad for their own horses. Each horse, after all, is an individual just like us :)
     
    10-10-2010, 09:36 AM
  #188
Trained
Let say it this way. People get shot and die more often then I would like to see. However it is not the guns fault. Guns to do not kill people people kill people. If it was not with a gun it would be a knife or a bat or something else. Same with bits.

It is not the bit but the person on the other side of the reins. Like I have said before. I can do the same amount of damage with a bit-less bridle as I can with a snaffle as I can with a Cathedral Port curb bit. It is not the bit it is the rider and how they use their hands.
     
    10-10-2010, 12:36 PM
  #189
Foal
As I have stated many times I am not trying to change anybody's opinion. I have said several times that just because somebody uses a bit doesn't mean they are awful to their horse. I have also said its not my way or no way. You guys are taking little bits of what I have said and making it so that it sounds like that is all I have said. That is wrong. " I hope this thread doesn't leave such a sour taste in your mouth that you never post here again. " If you love this forum as much as you say you do then why do all of you attack people and pick apart their posts grabbing only the parts that peak your interests.

I say Just my opinion because it is and I have tons of friends who ride with bits and we get along great you are all acting like if somebody uses a bit I would loathe them. That is incorrect. I am tired of this and if you think that I am "spouting off" explain this " Because, believe it or not, that does show your lack of knowledge." defend that. Also for my answer its throughout this whole post.

And for the last "its the hands sentence" It is your right to think that so go ahead, but I don't personally believe that. I am not saying ALL bits cause pain and discomfort, but I am saying that I think horses (if they knew there was an alternative) would like bitless more. For instance, " I
Started my horse in a halter, then moved to a hackamore, then moved to a snaffle, and am now just starting to work her back and forth between a snaffle and correctional bit. I will be soon adding spurs to my training as well. " I don't agree with this training method is isn't something I would do, but that is me that is my opinion. By me saying "I believe that having a bit may cause discomfort in a horses mouth. " That is NOT at all categorizing everybody who uses a bit.

I am tired of this and if you think that I am "spouting off" explain this " Because, believe it or not, that does show your lack of knowledge." defend that. I am supposed to share my opinions???? Also this " I can achieve the same results in a curb bit now using a 1/10 of the pressure with my hands." See this is what starts to bother me you are changing to a different bit that is more than even the simpler bits because you don't have to add as much pressure? Okay so with bits or bitless you have to add more pressure....so what?

Just as you say I cannot say that bits cause pain because I don't have a "horses mouth" is just the same for you you can't be sure it doesn't hurt them. So why take the chance? If you need to use a bit use the simple bit the snaffle. See? I'm not stubborn. I am giving suggestions for which bits to use whereas none of you except for Hoofprints in the sand have even debated (or at least said if you had) tried a bitless and (nhariener) and even then (directed to hoofprints in the sand) How long did you give your horse to get used to the bitless? How long did you give your horse to adjust to a bit? I bet the bit is longer. I have a lot of horse knowledge as well thank you so coming on here and constantly being told "lack of knowledge" is rude, insensitive and very annoying.
     
    10-10-2010, 12:56 PM
  #190
Trained
Here is a prime example of where you can get starting with a bit. Continue to school with a bit. You do not train this this is what training gets you in the end. It starts with the under standing of how to get here. Bit or no bit. You MUST under stand how to train with what you have. A git gives you a way of cuing with less presser and a faster response.

Does not matter what you use it can still be hurtful to the horse in the wrong hands. I know people who ride in halters and they put more pressure on their horses face then I do with my Cathedral port bit. NH is huge around here and yet I have never seen a well trained horse who works of a light rein trained that way. They are all bouncing around on the horse pulling on the horses face which they think is fine b/c it is not a bit. They are kicking their horse which they think is find b/c they do not have spurs on. In the end their horse dose not work well for them so they go home and put the horse in a round pen and run it in circle for an hour thinking they will end up with a more willing partner.

Forgot to add. Yes Stacy rides with spurs.

     

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