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Willing Compliance or Aversive Reflex

41K views 764 replies 30 participants last post by  Smilie 
#1 ·
On my first and last introduction to the round pen the home trainer was showing me the "ropes", literally.

Said trainer was holding the lead rope in the left hand and twirling about a foot or more of the end in the right hand.

As the trainer stepped towards the hind quarters of the horse, the horse stepped away with his hind quarters.

"See that?" "He knows if he doesn't move I'll hit him."

To the casual observer, it might have appeared the horse had moved willingly.

Did he move willingly? Or by aversive reflex? Or is there a difference? Or in the long run does it make any difference?
 
#2 ·
Subbing to see what others say.

I've seen this talked about as "adding pressure" that can be released when the horse complies. I have never worked in a round pen, that's just my only experience with seeing/hearing what you describe. Swinging the rope like that is useful for corralling a horse because it makes you look larger and moves them away from you.

I don't think "he knows if he doesn't move I'll hit him" is the best way to look at it, but I see where his concept is. I'd say it's not willing necessarily though, because IMO a horse shouldn't listen because it fears physical consequences, it should move because it respects the handler's direction, and then is aware that things can become unpleasant for them if they fail to comply with the command. Then, it should do it willingly next time, because it's aware of that consequence, not afraid of it.

Just my thoughts on it.
 
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#3 · (Edited)
reflex is an unlearned behavior. that making the hind move over with pressure is a learned behavior, so not a relfex.

however, the point i training should be to have the horse move where we ask with as little pressure as possible. so, if you always move the horse with propellor swinging, that's what it will take to move him. you should be working to make him move off a "air pressure" alone.

so , you should only have to 'hit' once or twice before he knows that a swing of the propellor means move over.

but, if you start out with 'air tapping' at him, and go up to propellor, then allow the propellor to just sort of 'land' on his hind end, he will realize that it's coming, and will soon chose to move at 'air tapping', so no propellor spinning is necessary, much less hiney hitting.
 
#6 ·
reflex is an unlearned behavior.
Unfortunately, sometimes words are just not my forte. I should have said, "Aversive Response". Do you have the ability to change the title? Or coercive aversion? Would that be right?

@Smilie
RE: go to 'ask, ask louder, then demand'
COMMENT: I do understand this is almost holy grail in the horse training world. After my first horseback ride in 40 years here on the ranch, I took two paid lessons in town where I was presented with the "ask, tell, demand". I will not defend myself as being right or wrong, but I simply do not and will not demand anything of a horse. It's just not in me or any part of who I am. If I felt that there was no recourse to demanding, I'd vacate my relationship with horses. But that's me.

@tinyliny, Reiningcatsanddogs;
I do understand that a horse does not have the choice of doing what you want unless it knows what you want. And I do understand that pressure/release is not punishment but rather negative reward. I believe it is important that the pressure be only something regarded as a discomfort where the horse searches for a way to end the discomfort. If the pressure is actual pain, then I believe the horse's actions enters the realm of self defence against the trainer. Although the final effect when viewed from the outside may be the same, I tend to think that the internal feelings of the horse toward the trainer my be damaged since the horse comes to think the trainer is someone he must defend himself against.

The notion that you may just have to "pop" the horse once or twice with the rope and never again, to me, is just a result of the horse's very vivid memory.

I do not see a clear distinction between punishment and the clear threat of punishment in terms of aversive responses and the view the horse has of the punisher or threatener.
 
#4 ·
Agree with Tiny
The lightest cue you use, when first asking a horse to do something, will be the lightest cue he will ever learn to respond to.
Thus, if you eventually want a horse to yield just to focusing your eyes on what you want him to move, adding a verbal cue, or cluck, start with that, then if no response, go to 'ask, ask louder, then demand'. A horse then learns to respond tot he lightest cue, be it a rein, a leg or to slight body language, as he is given a reason to be light.
Going to the ask louder, or even demand, at the beginning, will get you a horse that will never respond to less
 
#5 ·
Tiny Liny brought up a good point. The horse can’t be willing until it understands what we are asking. After the horse understands what we are asking, then you can make the call as to whether something is being done out of willingness or coercion. To me yes, it does make a difference.
 
#7 ·
If someone swung a rope at you or flicked a whip at you would you move away from it or stand there?
Horse's are no different in that reaction to humans but horses that have to survive in a herd situation are even more tuned in to knee jerk reactions than we are
It's harder to train a horse to not move away from a whip flick than it is to train them to move away even if they've never been touched by one which is why you have to take some time getting the horse used to the whip being used as a cue when you start lungeing or its going to be constantly pulling away from you
I rarely use any sort of body language/whip/ropes for direction at all once my horses have learnt verbal cues because I can't use body language from the saddle.
 
#8 ·
If someone swung a rope at you or flicked a whip at you would you move away from it or stand there?
Horse's are no different in that reaction to humans but horses that have to survive in a herd situation are even more tuned in to knee jerk reactions than we are
It's harder to train a horse to not move away from a whip flick than it is to train them to move away even if they've never been touched by one which is why you have to take some time getting the horse used to the whip being used as a cue when you start lungeing or its going to be constantly pulling away from you
I rarely use any sort of body language/whip/ropes for direction at all once my horses have learnt verbal cues because I can't use body language from the saddle.
 
#17 ·
I do understand using a rope as pressure. Not a source of pain, but pressure. The same as perhaps holding your thumb in their sides until they move away from it. And I know about rubbing whips on the horse so he won't be afraid of it. And "grounding" the whip when the is no cue being indicated with it so the horse will not become confused.

I understand all that. I've read about it, watched videos about it, and had it demonstrated one on one in a round pen.

I aborted when I was told, "See? He knows if he doesn't move I'll hit him". Too many, way way too many people cannot understand using a rope or a whip to look larger than they are or to apply pressure without pain or fear.

And even if they understand it, too many, way way too many, just won't stop there.

I have urges to hit. Yes, reflexive urges to hit. And I have. And that has resulted in mortification on my part and an added distance in the relationship with Hondo which I had to work hard at recovering.

I understand that horses can't talk. If they could, it might be harder to teach them. hee hee

I know we have to communicate with body language for that's all they know. BUT BOY DO THEY KNOW IT.

It makes me wonder if we could only control our thoughts and have the proper thoughts in our head, our body would communicate those thoughts to the horse without us even being aware. To a degree of course. No nouns, verbs, or adjectives.

@Smilie
I have no problem with asking or telling. If fact, too often I tell before asking. But I'm getting better.

It's the demanding I have a problem with. Of the trainers I've read and respect, they all say that a horse is willing to do as asked if it is within his capability, if he knows what is being asked, and if it is not going to cause him pain or danger. There may be a few others I've forgotten.

When demand time comes, I think it's time to step back and say, "Whats going on?" Yourself, your surroundings, your horse. What's going on? Why is he unwilling?

Demand is, to me, and maybe just to me, too forceful of an attitude for a proper partnership relationship, which is important to me above all else.

@Foxhunter The only downside to using a finger in the side to indicate move over, which Hondo and Rimmey respond to very very well, is that when I'm checking to see how fat Hondo is he moves before I can feel his ribs. Maybe he doesn't want me to know for fear his rations will be cut?

@Reiningcatsanddogs :grin:

I have four kids, one dog (at present) and two horses (almost)

I do not, have not, and will never be comfortable doing anything to any of them that I would not do to my very best friend.
 
#9 ·
Hondo, you missed what I really said. So please read my response again.
The idea is, to always ask as softly as possible, , going to the louder only as needed, then to ask as softely as possible again,each time
This creates a horse that will respond to the lightest aids
I never swing ropes=that rope twirling is an NH type of thing, that I never got into, any more then using rope halters routinely, \round penning endlessly, ect
The reason I don't need to wear spurs trail riding, is because my horses will go anywhere, including across rivers, up steep, winding , muddy, root covered trails, because I have instilled that lightness. They walk out on a loose rein, whether coming or going, while watching their footing.
If you don't like that type of horse, so be it
I am not into analyzing , trying to put some label on any technique, I just don't use a method I don't like, and that endless rope twirling,is one of them
On a horse that understands as to what you are asking, they become neither light by going to that demand, never giving the horse a chance to respond to the lightest cue, nor do they become light, if you quit before you get them to respond to a cue they understand-that is the basics of horse training.
 
#10 ·
We adopted two kids shortly after getting married. When the two kids refused to try eating spaghetti, I forced them to. Literally. Shoved it in my son's mouth and held his mouth shut until he swallowed. My oldest daughter, then 3, watched with wide eyes! After a few very messy rounds of that, he agreed to chew and swallow on his own. My promise was if they tried it two times, and did not like it, I would never ask them to eat it again.

Mid-way thru the second meal of spaghetti, they both realized it was goooood eats! And in the years that followed, I never had to use force to get them to try something. They would try it twice, willingly - because they had figured out that there were a lot of good tasting foods they could only discover by trying.

That story is part of family legend now. They both have kids of their own. They both used as much force as needed to enforce a "boundary": "You will make two good faith efforts to try a new food". In return, they knew that staying within the boundary meant they would never have to eat something they did not like more than twice. It proved to be a mutually acceptable compromise.

It is like the electric fence Tom Moates and Harry Whitney discuss. The fence creates a boundary. The horse decides if it will challenge the boundary. If it does, the horse gets hurt. If it doesn't, the horse has the freedom to graze - and will cheerfully do so, right next to the fence. As the chapter title states, "Electric Fences Don't Chase Horses".

I have no problems using whatever force is needed to create a boundary that is important to me - no bucking, no spinning, no bolting, if I tell you I really need you to go forward then go forward. In return, I give the horse freedom within those boundaries - we can go past X with a little extra room, or trot past, or if going forward is not REALLY important to me we can even turn back. We may even quit riding on a day if the horse doesn't feel like it. But the horse doesn't get to 'not feel like it' every day!

A boundary means "You picked the wrong action. Try again." No animosity. No punishment other than to respect that boundary. And freedom to try multiple options within the boundaries. Electric fences don't chase horses, and neither do my boundaries. And they seem to soon figure out the boundary, and respect it willingly enough - in part, I think, because they have freedom inside the boundaries.

I willingly drive my car down paved roads. Why? Because taking off across country doesn't work as well. I'm quite happy to use paved roads. Or dirt ones, if that is all that is available. I try to avoid leaving the roads, because submitting to the road allows me to go someplace I want to be. The road is not coercive nor is it aversive. It just is. I can travel 600 miles in a day, or get stuck in 600 yards. My choice. The road merely is.
 
#32 ·
A boundary means "You picked the wrong action. Try again." No animosity. No punishment other than to respect that boundary. And freedom to try multiple options within the boundaries. Electric fences don't chase horses, and neither do my boundaries. And they seem to soon figure out the boundary, and respect it willingly enough - in part, I think, because they have freedom inside the boundaries.
One of our boarders was having a problem with a new horse that would toss his head and back down the aisle because he didn't want to go into the grooming stall. I corrected it in a couple of sessions by not trying to correct his refusal to go in (he was allowed to stand and think about going into the stall) but correcting him from backing up. By eliminating the backing up he had only two choices left. In the first session he thought about going in for about three minutes. The second session was less than one minute, and there was no need for another session because he was given the opportunity to make the right choice on his own.
 
#12 ·
BSMS, Let me tell you how it worked out for my parents going the route you took. Doing what you did I would swallow it and then gag and immediately throw it up! When I was three they force fed me milk at school, I swallowed, gagged and then threw up on the teacher’s shoes, which they then made me clean up. Honestly, I didn't care as long as I didn't have to drink milk that day. Cleaning up barf was preferable to drinking milk.

After a while of trying to force me to “try things” my parents just decided that if I didn’t eat dinner, then I went hungry the rest of the night. It wasn’t going to kill me to miss a meal and if I was uncomfortable with a grumbling tummy, then that was my choice. They tried the whole, you won’t get anything else until you at least try this thing (they would put it in front of me for subsequent breakfasts, lunches and dinners) and after three days where I ate nothing, they gave up (the food was spoiling anyway), worried I would pass out in public and someone would call child services.

Then again, I was also the kid that got spanked and said “That didn’t hurt, hit me again” so they had to get creative to gain compliance. Different strokes for different folks.
 
#13 ·
The food thing's going off track but as a child there were loads of things that I refused to eat - my own kids the same - but as I got older I developed the maturity to try different stuff and some I liked and some I didn't so I'm not sure of it as a comparison to teaching a horse anything!!
Not sure what would happen if anyone tried to force me to eat sushi!!
 
#14 ·
There is more than one approach to teaching a kid to try a new food, but one does a kid no favors by letting the child refuse to try new foods. Sometimes you have to push a kid before the kid will learn that he likes doing that something.

Sometimes a horse needs a shove in the right direction. I think an honest "just try it" - coercive though it may be - is better than making a horse spin circles for 5 minutes and pretending that isn't punishment. I also think it is needed at times, unless one plans on letting the horse decide everything. Done fairly and honestly, I've seen no resentment result - provided the fence doesn't start chasing the horse.
 
#16 ·
None of my kids were adventurous eaters. Never made them try anything they didn't want to after I tried selling it to them (It has all of the things you like in there, it is really good, look your baby sister/brother loves it etc.) They grew up to eat practically anything, even bugs and tarantulas, while I remain a picky eater to this day. In all fairness, eating was never all that important to me; I sometimes forget to do it.

I found the same to be true with training horses. They will try anything you ask as they gain confidence and trust. How you go about gaining that trust and building their confidence is what differs.
 
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#19 ·
This is one of those discussions in which semantics really takes over. The truth is, horses must do some things and not do others if they are to be useful domestic animals. Operative word: must. There are no options, there is no 'if he feels like it today', no 'if he really trusts me'.

Violence, including the threat of violence, is almost always a poor training method for any living being. It may create obedience but there is the baggage of fear you have also created. Sometimes that fear leaves a permanent mark in the mind. For example, if someone had force-fed me even once as a child, I would remember it as a hideous trauma for the rest of my living days. Not everyone would, but I would. I'm glad it never happened to me.

Violence, in my semantics, means pressure exceeding what is absolutely required. Pressure is always required. It may be as light as a thought, or a glance, it may simply be waiting. But there has to be pressure.

In the system of enhancing human relationships via conversation called NonViolent Communication, there is a concept called request vs demand. The only way one can distinguish between them is by what happens when the answer is no. With a request, there are no consequences. With a demand, there are. My position here is that almost everything we do with horses involves demanding, on some level. You can demand with great tact, patience, and understanding, or like a total jerk. That is the choice.

Violence might be an option in a true emergency. There are rarely as many true emergencies as we imagine.
 
#20 ·
@ReiningcatsanddogsAgreed. And if my best friend was preparing to jump off a building to his death, I would do what I could to stop him even if it meant breaking a leg, if there was no other alternative.

@Avna RE: For example, if someone had force-fed me even once as a child, I would remember it as a hideous trauma for the rest of my living days.

Comment: At one level, I agree with what you say. But it just isn't necessarily always true. There are children who by the standards of anybody on this forum were abused to a degree they could have been prosecuted for it. Yet those same children as adults are often heard defending their parents actions as something they should have done and something they agree with.

There is a reason for this. It is as I recall similar to the reason a child that has been abducted and abused will after a time form a positive view of the abductor. Something to do with survival. With the parent I think it also has to do with admitting you may have been mistreated by a parent that you would prefer to respect.

I'll let the psychologist on board explain/correct further.

RE: With a request, there are no consequences. With a demand, there are.

Comment: Consequences is one of my most unfavorite words. I always read it as a smokescreen for, "With a request, there are no punishments. With a demand, there are.

As I said somewhere previosly, all of the nationally and internationally known trainers that I personally respect, stop at demand with the belief that something is wrong which needs to be discovered.

RE: The truth is, horses must do some things and not do others if they are to be useful domestic animals.

Comment: I understand this as I was raised on a farm that only used horses for plowing, pulling a wagon, mower, etc until I was 14 years old.

If a person is only interested in a confined domestic servant, then what you say is often the way it is. But I don't think it HAS to be the way it is even under those conditions.

But to the degree a person may be enamored by the grace, beauty, and elegance of the horse, and enjoy deeply a close bond with one, that mindset just will not work.

Don't get me wrong that I think a horse is a dog. They are not. I have a Great Pyrenees dog and they are as close to a horse as a dog can get. She was good training for me. Pyrenees will be your friend on condition. Not unconditionally like many dogs. They are the only dog that there is no obedience circle at dog shows.

Yet they are extremely intelligent.

So if a person wants to confine a horse and force him to do things he doesn't want to do, fine, if that is the desired relationship.

But having a willing partner do those things, is to me, and again perhaps only to me, contradictory to demand.
 
#21 ·
Very well said AVNA.

It is instinctive for the very young foal to lean into pressure, they have to be kindly taught to move away,

I am extremely patient with animals and children but, of the needs be then there is no one tougher than me. I was brought up with the teaching that a bog stick was often the answer. It took a couple of remedial ponies I was riding to teach me otherwise. I was around ten at my awakening. From that moment on I tried to get my wanted response with patience and understanding. However if a horse was a right beggar and taking the mickey then the big stick would come into play.

No one would ever call me soft with my animals, I expect a lot from them, I get a lot from them, they seem happy with the way things are between us.

HONDO You say that your horse would move away when you try to feel his ribs if you used a finger poke, surprisingly, they don't. They learn the difference between wanting them to stand or to move away.

I would muck the horses out whilst they were eating. Everyone of them would automatically move to one sode if I wanted to get to that sode to clean it. They didn't need telling, they didn't lift their heads from their mangers, they just swung their quarters over yet when they were having other things done to them and I went to the other side they stood stock still.

I am sure horses are more capable of understanding and reasoning than we give them credit for.
 
#22 ·
Force feeding kids, as Jaydee commented, is getting way off topic!
Hondo, I have a great relationship with my horses, as I do with my kids, as neither were spoiled, and learned to be"\good citizens'
Thus, my kids learned to do things at times, just because , as the parent,I knew what was best
Horses don't sit and analyse a relationship with us. They are secure, confident, and in fact, seek, clear fair leadership
Horses are also not all quite as altruistic as many like to believe, and when a horse understands a request, has been asked softly to comply, there does become a time to demand
If I know the safest place to cross a river, where neither the boulders are too large, or there is a deep hole, I do expect my horse to cross where I ask him to, versus arguing with me, at a place it is not even safe to argue
I do not need to beat my horse, as that response , though trust in my leadership and judgment is ingrained
Too many horses wind up in slaughter, unwanted, because many people just don't get, 'be as soft and gentles with a horse as possible, BUT also as firm as needed, to make that horse a good citizen
We have a recent post, on a horse that balks, and then goes backwards, to avoid going where asked (away from buddies and barn . I think that is a time to demand that foreward. Of course, little things were missed by someone, as the horse should never have gotten to that point in the first place
Now maybe that horse thinks he will be in danger, leaving his buddies, but that is because, his leader (s) is back in that pasture, and not on his back
 
#24 ·
Just so's yall don't think I'm a halpless softie nincompoop.

Molly is the lead mare in the herd. One day when I had taken Hondo back to the herd I was petting and talking to him before taking leave. Molly sauntered over turned her backside to Hondo only about eight feet from him and feigned with her hinds off the ground 18 inches or so.

I had the halter in my hand and immediately threw it at her. Chased her and threw it a couple of more times. For the longest time, maybe into months, she avoided me. We are now best of friends and she comes to greet me anytime I'm nearby.

Physically threatening actions in the vicinity of a human is of course something that can't be tolerated and my response was at least close to a reflex.

But I characterize my response as defensive and that's ok. And if a horse is being defensive, that's ok to me also.

But I am not tough with the horses and they know it. And no advantage is taken.

BTW, Hondo doesn't move over for a light examination, it's when I really have to push hard to find a rib. He says, "What? Oh, ya want me to move over?"

Sorry but I just feel bad for horses who are destined to spend most of their lives reacting to fear, pain, or the threat of pain. Coercion is coercion whether a hand need be lifted or not.

I realize they have fear in nature and that nature is not always kind. But in captivity I do not think it should or needs to be so.

One of the things I have consciously attempted to make both Hondo and Rimmey understand that I will never harm nor hurt them in anyway.
 
#25 ·
Sorry if I offended you Avna. We are all here to discuss, exchange ideas, and hear how other people think. We're not here to necessarily always agree on stuff.

The first paragraph of your first post is close to 180 degrees from where I am or want to be. Now I know and now you know. We don't HAVE to always agree.

If everybody agreed on everything, what would we talk about?
 
#26 ·
I think there is some confusion on the intensity of the ask, tell, demand sequence in working with horses. Assuming the horses knows the correct response to the cue, normally the ask is executed quietly, and if the horse refuses, the cue is executed "louder", and if another refusal, the cues is shouted. So if my horse refuses my whisper of a leg cue, I'll use my leg with a little more force, and if that is refused, I'll demand by backing up the leg cue with a tap of my whip----there's no need to cause pain and it's more of a reminder to listen to what I'm asking.


Think of it like a alpha mare moving an underling out of her way......first she just walks towards him, if he doesn't move she pins her ears, and if he ignores that she's quick to swing her butt around and threaten a kick. By then the underling has most likely gotten the message to move even those the alpha never kicked him.
 
#28 ·
I don’t think Hondo is suggesting that your horse is living in fear anymore than you are suggesting that his horse is a spoiled brat headed for the slaughter house.

However, if you are around horses long enough you will run into those who fit one of those or even both descriptions.

Depending upon where you live, you may run into more of one type than the other. It has a way of coloring your viewpoint and sending you a bit to one side or the other.
 
#29 ·
Ditto to Avna, far as my horses living in fear, responding to physical pain.
You know Hondo, there is a happy intermediate position, between using pain, intimidation , and being ineffective, with the horse constantly needing to ask, \who is leading who?'
While true cases of abuse exist, and should be abhorred by any true horseman, it is also true, that more horses wind up in slaughter, unwanted, dangerous, because they have become spoiled, with that owner not knowing the difference between good fair leadership, and afraid to be a leader, because the horse then might not love them.
Ask, ask louder, can be as simple as first just applying a feather of a leg against the horse,then more firm leg aid, and finally a bump, if that horse does not move off that leg
Next time, the horse is again given a chance to respond to that feather light touch. That is what creates a light horse, and does not mean you have to wallop on that horse
I plan my holidays around my horses, worrying about their care when I am gone.
My horses come up to me, are easy to halter, even after working hard for three days in the mountains. They are relaxed around me, don't mind being touched anywhere on their body, and horses don't do that, if they fear harsh treatment.
Such horses flinch and tense when touched.
If I want one to move over, that is tied, I only have to look at their haunch and smooch. However, if a horse that understands that request, sorta \say'. naw, think i'll just stand here, then they just might get a slap on that haunch, and a stern;over'
next time, they will yield with that soft smooch.
Happy trails, anyway, Hondo, and hope horse Hondo never decides to take you on a ride, where it counts!
 
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