World war 3 when it comes to washing my horse! - Page 3

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World war 3 when it comes to washing my horse!

This is a discussion on World war 3 when it comes to washing my horse! within the Horse Training forums, part of the Training Horses category

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    06-13-2013, 09:33 PM
Bbsmfg3, I disagree with you there. Especially with someone who might not be experienced enough to handle a blow up on their own, I 100% suggest a helper. Someone who can, if nothing else, keep an eye on things and make sure nothing goes wrong (keep the hose untangled, give guidance if needed). If done correctly a helper certainly isn't a 'hindrance'.
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    06-14-2013, 12:15 AM

You are missing the point completely. The horse and one handler(trainer) is much safer than having a helper even close. Now if the helper will sit over in the corner, be quiet and just watch, OK. But, you get much farther, faster if the horse has 100% of it's attention on just one. The horse is much more likely to blow, if it must pay attention to more than one human. Any time you distract the horse from the main goal(in this case a human trying to get him wet) you complicate the horses ability to stay focused. Every time he looses direct contact with the main trainer, it takes a refocus to get his attention back. That will cause the horse to become anxious and be more likely to blow.

There are very, very few training disciplines that one handler can not do better and faster than can be accomplished with two handlers. You must remember a horse's attention span is less than 3 seconds. Which means the more you divert his attention away from the primary goal, the more frequently it has to be refocused. When you have a problem to solve, you want all of the horses attention 100% of the time. This is horse training 101, and if you deviate, it takes more time and more effort to accomplish the discipline, and your chance of getting hurt are multiplied many times.

Just watch some of the professional trainers. Clinton Anderson is a good one to watch. You never see him helping or asking for help with a problem horse. He has that horse's attention 150% of the time. That horse never, ever, takes his ear off of Clinton, never. AND remember always, always KISS the horse. (keep it simple stupid). Horses learn one little baby step at a time. First he gets used to the sound of the water coming out of the hose. Once that is ok, he gets used to it touching his feet. When that is ok, etc, etc, etc. If someone is holding him, while someone else is handling the hose. What does the horse do? You got it, he can not stay attentive, period, anxiety sets in and someone gets hurt.
    06-14-2013, 02:42 AM
Exactly, you're referencing professional trainers here. Unfortunately OP isn't a professional, from her other threads: she's been riding for six years and has a naughty pony with few ground manners (see her other thread about his chronic biting habit). You can't lump everyone into one big 'this way is the best way' category.

I agree with you, someone with the confidence and experience to handle a horse by themselves in the event that something happens should go one on one with their horse HOWEVER I can dream up a number of cases where it isn't safe, or where the handler DOESN'T have the experience necessary to keep the situation in check and I suspect, given the OP's description, that this is one of them and that she would benefit from the help of an experienced individual.
    06-14-2013, 04:53 AM
I feel your pain..bathing my horse is also a challenge...he tends to lunge himself on the lead rope as we hose him down...we manage to get him bathed..but it takes time...hes getting better...slowly..still tends to run in circles though lol..and we have warm water as an option at our water is not an excuse for him XD
    06-14-2013, 07:53 AM
If your wondering I can handle him, im not a completely hopeless case. :)
So I have done some ground work with him, and did a join up session. He certainly respected my space when I was with him.(He didn't bite aswell which was a plus!)
He is not scared of the hose or the sound of running water its just when he's wet he's a grumpy man. bbsmfg3 I watched some of the videos you suggested and they helped.
For the time being I put some hay for him to munch on as a distraction and he seems occupied, but I guess that's a short term solution, so im going to do what some of you suggested and do some more groundwork :)

I appreciate all of your posts ! :)
    06-14-2013, 10:25 AM
" I suspect, given the OP's description, that this is one of them and that she would benefit from the help of an experienced individual."

No wonder so many people get hurt by horses.

A knowledgeable horse handler would not help with this situation. They'd either stay out of the way and do nothing, or they'd do it, and ask the owner to stay out of the way.

What you are suggesting is a great way to get hurt. The beginners can not learn if they do not have the facts about basic horsemanship. It is obvious you lack the basics of horsemanship, and to promote and suggest others follow poor horsemanship is dangerous and irresponsible. These horses are many times larger and stronger than we mere humans, BUT, we humans have the advantage, if we out think them, and understand the basics of horse behavior.

If this horse was a complete outlaw, which I doubt. All the more reason to handle the horse with one trainer. Understanding the make up of horses, in general, dictates the safe approach. You can not fix a major behavior problem if you can not keep the horse's attention on the trainer, 100% of the time. The second human in the area, doing anything that the horse will notice, makes that impossible.
    06-14-2013, 11:38 AM
Working with or without help is not a part of basic horsemanship. You clearly have a different background and different views on the subject. Your opinion on this matter is neither right or wrong. My opinion is neither right or wrong. My background is I learned under my father who has been training/showing/breeding horses professionally for over 50 years. I have been in many many barns of other professional trainers and watched them work, and my favorite place to be at a horse show is in the warm up ring watching people get ready. In my little part of the horse world, I am used to the concept of grooms and people commonly doing things in teams. It is common for a groom to hold while the trainer adjusts tack, or checks a foot, or gets on the horse, especially when being washed, because to the section of the horse world I grew up in, it is just safer and less stressful. And I know that there are many people, many of my friends, many professional trainers with different backgrounds that do everything by themselves because they believe it is safer.

To me, it IS basic horse/human safety to have a buddy when washing. Just as it is a basic horse/human safety precaution to hold the horse while the farrier is under him, or when the vet is doctoring him. I expect my horse to behave in order for other people to do stuff to him. It is not a vets responsibility to hold him, correct him, handle him while he draws blood(and equally unpleasant task to baths IMO). How is one person doing unpleasant things to him any different than another?

Maybe we should start a new thread on the topic?

I also disagree with experienced people refusing to help this girl(I doubt she asked). This doesn't sound like a huge issue at all that will make people shy away. He isn't exploding, he isn't kicking out like a mountain lion was attacking him, he isn't freaking out and throwing himself. A simple request for help("hey could you hold him while I wash his tail.") is all it should take.

What she wrote does not match her title at all. This horse is not scared of the bath. The bath itself is not the problem. It is the situation that is the problem. The horse Is getting frustrated and impatient, and has been manipulating the person washing(the op) with his body to protest. Swishing his tail, moving his body towards her to push her around. He's not retreating. He is telling her "I do not like this. You need to stop." She also said she was spending more time on the baths, which likely is causing him to be more impatient. He needs to be corrected for this behavior which is difficult to do from, say the horse's hip when washing, or when you are knocked off balance. He needs to be corrected immediately.

The underlying problem is that he thinks he can push his handler around. Respect issue. The patience issue is helped with building respect. He does need some one-on-one time with his girl or a trainer and then his girl to reestablish his respect in general, but he needs to have someone there to tell him his behavior is unacceptable from the second it happens. It doesn't sound like she is just hosing him off. It sounds like she is right up next to him, scrubbing and washing away those dreaded gray horse stains.
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    06-14-2013, 12:34 PM
Originally Posted by bbsmfg3    
They'd rather be clean too.
This is the funniest thing I heard in a while Still need to see a horse that rather is clean! Don't think it will happen!!!
    06-14-2013, 12:52 PM
"To me, it IS basic horse/human safety to have a buddy when washing. Just as it is a basic horse/human safety precaution to hold the horse while the farrier is under him, or when the vet is doctoring him. I expect my horse to behave in order for other people to do stuff to him. It is not a vets responsibility to hold him, correct him, handle him while he draws blood(and equally unpleasant task to baths IMO). How is one person doing unpleasant things to him any different than another?"

And I have been learning horsemanship for over 65 years, BUT, the first 40 of that was poor horsemanship that was not watching and learning the behavioral traits of horses.
Your right it is not the job of the vet or farrier to train the horse. HOWEVER, the horse should all ready be trained to stand and behave before they meet up with these hurtie humans. At which time the handler merely reinforces what the horse has already learned, if it does anything wrong, in response to the hurtie human. We should not be training them to stand still for the first time when the hurtie humans come visit.

It's the attention span of the horse that dictates the need for complete attention when trying to train for a none desirable behavior. It's then the second human is the problem, and creates the atmosphere for anxiety and flightiness of the horse. Horses are not humans, they can not retain an extended attention span. It's the job of the trainer, when correcting a badie, to keep the horse's attention always on the trainer. The mere existence of another human in the area will, almost always, break that attention span.

The few times I've spoken with Clinton Anderson and John Lyons, this was the subject. If you'll watch neither one of them hardly ever have anyone help them. And if they are with a crowd they are working non stop at keeping the subject horse's attention only on them. They are good at that, the novice or beginner is not. The beginner doesn't need that extra distraction..

Haven't you noticed, when someone gets hurt by a horse, there is almost always someone close by. It happens solo, but not nearly as often.
    06-14-2013, 01:55 PM
Man, I know my vets and farriers would appreciate if all of their clients had respectful trained horses that submit quietly to an unpleasant situation. Yes, they should be trained to behave for the vet/farrier/groom, but this is reality.

Clinton Anderson, John Lyons, Pat Parelli, Cynthia Royal, big name famous dressage trainer A, famous race horse trainer Jim, jumper trainer Billy, reining champion Fernando, Spanish riding school master Alexander, saddle seat Sally, combined driving master Larry, anyone who is anyone has their own way of doing things. The world class Olympic eventer is going to do things differently than the world champion Reiner. Champion A and Champion B may have taken different routes to get there.

I watch Clinton Anderson. I am a fan. I have spoken to him, asked him questions, bought the DVDs, studied the Method. I really like him. He is not the end-all-be-all trainer. His way is not the best way for all people.

I know of one Cavalia-esque trainer who has trained horses for the movies that starts the horses training for riding with the horse's head in a bucket of carrots held by one person while the other person climbs all over the horse. This is how she trains, how she teaches people, and you know what? For some strange reason, it works for her and it works for the people she trains. You have to completely devote yourself to her type of training from the start to achieve that end, but it does work.

If Trainer A doesn't use a helper then there is nothing wrong with it. If Trainer B uses one, there is nothing wrong with that.
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