VERY interesting video: shod vs unshod hoof - The Horse Forum
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
post #1 of 8 Old 02-08-2010, 05:41 AM Thread Starter
Yearling
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 1,348
• Horses: 2
VERY interesting video: shod vs unshod hoof

I found this video extremely interesting. I own a barefoot horse, and this only affirms my assumptions I have on the advantages of no shoes. As seen in the video, the barefoot hoof helps to absorb some of the shock on impact. The shod hoof sends the shock right into the leg. To be honest, I think it would be a little scary to see something like this at the gallop or landing after a 4 ft jump.


Thoughts?

"The trouble with the world is that the stupid are certain and the intelligent are full of doubt"
-Bertrand Russel

Last edited by roro; 02-08-2010 at 05:44 AM.
roro is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 8 Old 02-08-2010, 06:33 AM
Green Broke
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: northern arkansas
Posts: 3,100
• Horses: 1
The force looks much more concussive with the shoes on and a bit more flatfooted. The shod hooves also slip more with each step than the unshod ones they seem much less stable than the barefoot hooves with a lot more "wiggle".

Ω Horses are a projection of peoples dreams Ω

Last edited by Honeysuga; 02-08-2010 at 06:35 AM.
Honeysuga is offline  
post #3 of 8 Old 02-08-2010, 08:41 AM
Showing
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Greenville area / SC
Posts: 13,165
• Horses: 3
I don't think the video shows a proper story. Riding on the roads, a horse may be better off but what would that horse look like on a dirt road or in an arena? I believe in proper shoeing for the conditions.

Just as an athlete needs proper shoes for their activity, so does a horse. If a race horse would run faster without shoes, that would be the norm. If a jumper would work better without shoes, that would also be the norm. Competitors are always looking for the edge and if that edge was shoeless, that is the way it would be. As for the 4' jump, think about the Olympic horses. They can be valued in the hundreds of thousands of dollars as well as being incredible athletes but they are shod. When a gold metal is the prize, then any advantage is the goal - and these horses are jumping well into their teens.

A horse that needs to have grip to make those fast turns as in going from jump to jump or in a reining pattern, needs the grip that the proper shoe would give.

I'm not arguing with you, I'm just explaining why I'm right.

Nothing sucks more than that moment during an argument when you realize you're wrong.


It's not always what you say but what they hear.

Last edited by iridehorses; 02-08-2010 at 08:46 AM.
iridehorses is offline  
post #4 of 8 Old 02-08-2010, 08:58 AM
Banned
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 629
• Horses: 0
The very first problem I see with this is that in neither video is the horse actually trimmed correctly and balanced.

The second issue is that the video wasn't taken on the same day, so the out of balance trimming is different in each video. I'm not even convinced the horse is shod properly on top of that.

Third, you don't put the horse on slippery pavement and say, 'ah, look at him slide more with the shoe on'...duh. We already know that sometimes being unshod provides better traction and sometimes being shod provides better traction. Again, duh.

When this type of experiment/comparison is done in a controlled environment, with the feet done properly, using horses of varying leg and body conformation, and all innumerable variables taken into consideration, only then can the data be fairly compared.

Even under those circumstances, logic dictates that there will be matters of give and take and that the choice to shoe or not will be dependent on those matters.

At this point I always feel I must add a disclaimer so that wrong assumptions aren't made about where I stand on the matter of barefoot vs shoeing:

I've done it both ways with horses (even the 'same' horses), including just shoes on the front and just shoes on the back. I've tried it every possible way, on many different breeds of horses, over more than two decades, with performance (yes, I've even raced horses w/o shoes), pleasure, retired and lame horses of just about every conceivable injury and it's absolutely ridiculous for anyone to stand immobile in one camp or the other, unless you just haven't experienced it all, viewed it with a closed mind, are intellectually challenged, and like to be obtuse.
Mercedes is offline  
post #5 of 8 Old 02-09-2010, 12:44 AM Thread Starter
Yearling
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 1,348
• Horses: 2
Update: I looked around a bit and found more information on the subject. Some excerpts-

"cientist Luca Bein at the University of Zurich in 1983 brought to light interesting findings about shock absorption in the hoof, comparing it in unshod and shod (with various materials) hooves. According to his study, a hoof shod with a normal metal shoe lacks 60-80% of it natural shock absorption.
He also found that "A shod foot moving on asphalt at a walk receives three times the impact force as an unshod foot moving on on asphalt at a trot."


An in vitro model was developed and validated in vivo to quantify the attenuation (dampening) of impact vibrations, transmitted through the lower equine forelimb and to assess the effects of horseshoeing on this attenuation. The transsected forelimbs of 13 horses were equipped with custom-made hollow bone screws in the 4 distal bones, on each of which a tri-axial accelerometer could be mounted. The limbs were then preloaded while the impact was simulated by dropping a weight on the steel plate on which the hoof was resting. At the hoof wall, the distal, middle and proximal phalanx and at the metacarpal bone, the shock waves resulting from this impact were quantified. To assess the damping effects of shoeing, measurements were performed with unshod hooves, hooves shod with a normal flat shoe and hooves shod with an equisoft pad and a silicone packing between hoof and pad. The in vitro model was validated by performing in vivo measurements using one horse, and subjecting the limb of this horse to the same in vitro measurements after death. Approximately 67% of the damping of impact vibrations took place at the interface between the hoof wall and the distal phalanx. The attenuation of impact vibrations at the distal and proximal interphalangeal joints was considerably less (both 6%), while at the metacarpophalangeal joint 9% of the amplitude of that at the hoof wall was absorbed, leaving approximately 13% of the initial amplitude at the hoof wall detectable at the metacarpus. Compared to unshod hooves the amplitude at the hoof wall is 15% higher in shod hooves. No differences could be observed between shoe types. At the level of the first phalanx and metacarpus the difference between shod and unshod vanished; it was therefore concluded that, although shoeing might influence the amplitude of impact vibrations at the hoof wall, the effect of shoeing on the amplitude at the level of the metacarpophalangeal joint is minimal."

"That metal shoes increase concussion / vibration is not in question, it is long proven and accepted - this is a main reason for the development of all manner of pads and even rubber shoes in an attempt to prevent increased concussion - indeed pads have been show to offer less concussion, but do not negate the other negative effects on the hoof"

Etc etc. Found at Healthy Hoof - Solutions for Barefoot Performance

I don't mean to sound one sided if I do, I think there are multiple situations where shoes would be the smarter choice. I just don't see why it is assumed that horses need shoes. A horse should be evaluated first before shoes are deemed necessary, there is no need to put shoes on a horse unless it has benefits.

"The trouble with the world is that the stupid are certain and the intelligent are full of doubt"
-Bertrand Russel
roro is offline  
post #6 of 8 Old 02-09-2010, 07:24 AM
Trained
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Northern Utah
Posts: 5,455
• Horses: 1
Quote:
Originally Posted by iridehorses View Post
I don't think the video shows a proper story. Riding on the roads, a horse may be better off but what would that horse look like on a dirt road or in an arena? I believe in proper shoeing for the conditions.

Just as an athlete needs proper shoes for their activity, so does a horse. If a race horse would run faster without shoes, that would be the norm. If a jumper would work better without shoes, that would also be the norm. Competitors are always looking for the edge and if that edge was shoeless, that is the way it would be. As for the 4' jump, think about the Olympic horses. They can be valued in the hundreds of thousands of dollars as well as being incredible athletes but they are shod. When a gold metal is the prize, then any advantage is the goal - and these horses are jumping well into their teens.

A horse that needs to have grip to make those fast turns as in going from jump to jump or in a reining pattern, needs the grip that the proper shoe would give.

Very well said!!

There's nothing like the Rockies in the springtime... Nothing like the freedom in the air... And there ain't nothing better than draggin calves to the fire and there's nothing like the smell of burning hair. -Brenn Hill
kevinshorses is offline  
post #7 of 8 Old 02-09-2010, 09:33 AM
Banned
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 629
• Horses: 0
Quote:
Originally Posted by roro View Post
"cientist Luca Bein at the University of Zurich in 1983 brought to light interesting findings about shock absorption in the hoof, comparing it in unshod and shod (with various materials) hooves. According to his study, a hoof shod with a normal metal shoe lacks 60-80% of it natural shock absorption.
Again, that's just not good enough. Was the hoof trimmed properly before being shod? Was the hoof shod properly? Was the data actually translated correctly? It doesn't appear that the study included any data based on different surfaces. There's no mention of stress on joints and soft tissue of a barefoot horse vs shod a horse on slippery surfaces. And so on... It's far too one-sided with many variables unchecked for me to take seriously.

The frog is still suppose to touch the ground FIRST on a shod horse. In most cases it does NOT because the foot is not done properly and that would be increased to 99% of the time on a none-movable surface. At least if the horse is on yielding ground, the foot/shoe can sink into the surface and the frog can come in contact and do it's job.

There's an increase in hoof wall concussion...well duh, look at the video...the horse is landing on ONE WALL then the foot is smacking down onto the other wall. That is NOT how a hoof should be landing, so of course there's going to be tremendous concussion on the hoof wall. The foot is not trimmed properly. Incorrect trimming beneath a steel shoe WILL cause concussion rates to rise exponentially.

Logically, there's more concussion with hard, immovable object against hard, immovable object. That's why we know it's not a good thing to run horses on hard surfaces...shoes or no shoes. The difference though being, with no shoe the frog gets to work properly...sometimes...because even then most times the feet are not trimmed correctly and the frog doesn't get to work even if the horse is barefoot.

Quote:
He also found that "A shod foot moving on asphalt at a walk receives three times the impact force as an unshod foot moving on on asphalt at a trot."
Who cares? We don't work horses on asphalt, shod or barefoot. This type of statement is completely irrelevant and only shows the disconnect between scientist and horse management.

Quote:
"That metal shoes increase concussion / vibration is not in question, it is long proven and accepted - this is a main reason for the development of all manner of pads and even rubber shoes in an attempt to prevent increased concussion - indeed pads have been show to offer less concussion, but do not negate the other negative effects on the hoof"
What other negative effects?

Quote:
I don't mean to sound one sided if I do, I think there are multiple situations where shoes would be the smarter choice. I just don't see why it is assumed that horses need shoes. A horse should be evaluated first before shoes are deemed necessary, there is no need to put shoes on a horse unless it has benefits.
Who's assuming horses need shoes? Point them out.

I've yet to come across one of these barefoot vs shod threads where the people in support of shoeing horses have ever said that.

IN FACT, most of the time it's the barefoot people claiming that all horses can go barefoot, NOT people who shoe their horses saying all horses need shoes.

Last edited by Mercedes; 02-09-2010 at 09:36 AM.
Mercedes is offline  
post #8 of 8 Old 02-13-2010, 07:42 PM
Started
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Florida
Posts: 2,227
• Horses: 0
I don't think all horses can be barefoot. There are a LOT of factors that go into this. My horse is barefoot right now. He has good hooves, and is very sound. However, when he was doing 4' jumpers, although he still had good hooves and was sound, he wore shoes because at the time, he needed them. I don't think there's an absolute answer to this. It's going to vary by situation and by horse.

I give myself very good advice, But I very seldom follow it
Gillian is offline  
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the The Horse Forum forums, you must first register.

Already have a Horse Forum account?
Members are allowed only one account per person at the Horse Forum, so if you've made an account here in the past you'll need to continue using that account. Please do not create a new account or you may lose access to the Horse Forum. If you need help recovering your existing account, please Contact Us. We'll be glad to help!

New to the Horse Forum?
Please choose a username you will be satisfied with using for the duration of your membership at the Horse Forum. We do not change members' usernames upon request because that would make it difficult for everyone to keep track of who is who on the forum. For that reason, please do not incorporate your horse's name into your username so that you are not stuck with a username related to a horse you may no longer have some day, or use any other username you may no longer identify with or care for in the future.



User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in









Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.



Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page



Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
flat shod or light shod? chika1235 Gaited Horses 2 07-01-2010 10:33 AM
Shod before foaling? deineria Horse Health 4 10-11-2009 02:11 PM
Would you or have you shod your own horse? TroubledTB Horse Health 10 09-19-2009 02:01 PM
Anyone with a shod horse...?? ShannonSevenfold Horse Tack and Equipment 14 01-20-2009 11:42 PM
Interesting video my2geldings Horse Videos 4 06-19-2008 01:20 AM

Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome