When two alphas meet...the blood will fly. - Page 3 - The Horse Forum
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post #21 of 56 Old 11-03-2010, 07:22 PM Thread Starter
Green Broke
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada
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I never said anyone was rude or attacking, I was simply stating how some of the commentary made me feel.

Typically, we always leave them alone. The ONLY reason we led Justus away is because there is a single rail there, and then a pavement aisle and box stalls. Horses see it as an escape route and the LAST thing we wanted was for Jessie to come flying backwards and have Justus try to jump it. No, Shay-la should not have led her directly back to Jessie, that was a huge mistake on our part. However, I have done this DOZENS of times, and they WOULD have fought eventually - be it here or out in the paddock. Out in the paddock, hurling Justus to the sharks by throwing her into a group of FIVE strange horses seemed a lot more stupid then trying to introduce them in the arena. As is, I don't see it being pleasant when she does go in.

Justus is getting a box stall in the arena where currently six other horses are kept (including Jynx). This group goes into their own paddock and nobody is going to start leading them around to their own pen, we don't board at someplace fancy. Either they learn to work it out or else Justus has to be on outdoor board, in the outdoor boarder pen.

I understand we made mistakes, but we did the best we could and we will do it differently next time. I honestly believe this was the best way - there's no safer pen to introduce them in, and someone WOULD have gotten hurt had we tossed Justus into the paddock to fend for herself. We have limited resources and did NOT think they would fight this badly, we thought Justus would back down relatively quickly. I appreciate all the comments and all the advice, we will definitely be considering all of it.

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post #22 of 56 Old 11-03-2010, 08:08 PM
Green Broke
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Sometimes when you stick a horse out in a group another horse will stick up for the new horse (note I said sometimes). When I stuck Willow out with the group she automatically became friends with Davinci and even though she is above him she stands up for him. Anything that will happen in this group of horses is going to happen even if you introduce them all separately because she'll still be the new horse in the group in their paddock. If you get what I mean.

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post #23 of 56 Old 11-03-2010, 10:02 PM
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MM - we understand - you meant well, it just didn't work out the way you intended. Next time, try not forcing the issue. You said you were sure they would fight at some point, and you may be right...but you could be wrong, too. It's possible that if they were given plenty of room to maneuver and no food or whatnot to fight over, they may studiously ignore one another long enough to let the tension resolve itself enough to allow them to get acquainted at their own speed.

When we first brought Dancer and DJ home, we kept them separate from our other horses for a few days. Daughter's stallion is a really laid back guy, and had never shown any agression toward any other horse, and he was with a mare and her colt all the time. She ruled the roost.

Against my better judgement, the gate between the pens was opened and in an astounding display of agression, Scooter, the stallion, attacked DJ full on. It wasn't kicking and squealing - Scooter was going to KILL DJ, no doubt about it. DJ jumped a five foot fence with lots of room to spare and took off down the road. We searched for hours before we found the poor guy cowering in a wooded area down on the river.

In the end, DJ and Scooter became best buds, and even indulged in mutual grooming...but only if there was a fence between them. If they were both on the same side of the fence, Scooter turned into that mean monster all over again.

Scooter has never shown any signs of agression toward Junior, and Junior is uncut at this time. I don't think the fact that Junior is Scooter's son has anything to do with it, I just think they've been together for a long time. That being said, they are in separate enclosures, so if they're put together, it may be another nasty fight.

Hopefully, Scooter's agression will diminish once he's gelded, because having to keep horses separated like this is a royal pain...

Plain Old Dee, horses Dancer and Rain

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post #24 of 56 Old 11-03-2010, 10:36 PM
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I definitely hear what everyone's saying and in hindsight, I shouldn't have led Justus straight back to Jesse - that was MY mistake 100%. That being said, the ONLY reason I even led her back is because she came up to the single rail that MM mentioned. Had she buggered off the other way, towards the back of the arena, I'd have left her be and let them come back to each other in their own sweet time. Granted I should have just led Justus back to the center of the arena and not nose to nose...know for next time. But again, like MM stated, we didn't expect NEARLY that much excitement! A couple kicks, couple squeels...what we got was easily 100 times more than we expected!

Do they HAVE to be kept together? No...not if we don't bring Justus into a stall for the winter. I'll be riding Justus mainly early morning and late evenings though and can't be putting her back out in -40 gusting winds at 9pm...that's where the stall comes in. Only problem is that all 6-7 horses are kept in the same outside paddock together, which I might add is composed of electric wires and metal panels. This is why indoor intros with leg protection seemed the safer idea.

IF Justus and Jesse can't sort out their differences in the next week or two, start to settle and not be at each other's throats...then it's not worth it and I'll put her back on outdoor board, in the pen of horses she's used to. But that will mean her riding becomes quite limited.

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post #25 of 56 Old 11-03-2010, 10:37 PM
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The only "mistake" I see in the way you introduced them was to lead the palomino over to the other horse who is clearly the leader of the two. If the palomino can figure out on her own to just back off, then it might work out. If she's too thick to back down, it would be much safer to just keep her outside. No sense risking a broken leg.

You just have to see your distance...you don't have to like it.
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post #26 of 56 Old 11-03-2010, 11:51 PM
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Wow... just wow. That's some intensity right there...

I get that you said they were afraid of her trying to escape over the rail and whatnot, but leading her right up to the mare's nose and forcing them to meet wasn't necessary. Honestly, by putting them both out there together without other horses KNOWING they were gonna go after each other really DOES sound like a pitbull fight. With our horses, the two most dominant horses steer clear of each other as long as there's other horses around. They're too busy bullying everyone else, lol. This, though, is pretty much a staged fight...

And I'm definitely not blaming anything on you... like you said, not your horses, not your decision.

I'm so busy, I don't know if I've found a rope... or lost my horse...
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post #27 of 56 Old 11-03-2010, 11:55 PM
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Also toward the end of the video it looks like you can see the sorrel get a scrape on her hip from the palomino kicking her... are they wearing shoes?

I'm so busy, I don't know if I've found a rope... or lost my horse...
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post #28 of 56 Old 11-04-2010, 12:05 AM
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Holy sh*t, they are dominant! I hope they have got it all out of their system.

Could you have put them in adjoining paddocks for a while until they were more accustomed to each other? My instructor ppreffers to introduce horses ino a heard over a two week period, instead of all at once. He separates them with a fence and an eletrical wire so they don't get to close to each other. It may have gotten some of the p*ss and vinegar out of their systems before they were allowed to meet "in person".

EDIT* Oops. I should have read your entire OP. I see you said they weere penned beside each other. In that case, I would have just let them duke it out on their own. It may not be the thing we want to happen, but sometimes it is going to happen either way.

Last edited by A knack for horses; 11-04-2010 at 12:10 AM.
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post #29 of 56 Old 11-04-2010, 12:52 AM
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MM, I think its pretty unlikely that they will ever be safe to board in the same pasture. Normally what happens in a situation like this is that they fight until one of them is severely hurt/dead or until one of them is beaten into extreme submission and driven from the herd. Either way, if they are unable to escape one another, this will be a scratched record, just repeating over and over. I hate it that it won't work out but sometimes it doesn't and it can be a pain in the ass.
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post #30 of 56 Old 11-04-2010, 12:53 AM
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Originally Posted by MacabreMikolaj View Post
I can respect your opinions, but I am a little offended that some people are acting like we delibrately did this to see a big fight. We expected some squealing and kicking, and we were trying to keep them away from the rail. No, she probably shouldn't have been led directly back to Jessie, but if we had known they were going to attack each other that viciously, we WOULD have done it differently.

In the end, neither of them are my horse and it's not my decision.
I don't think that you did it to see the fight, and I think that you took steps to try to stop injuries, but I think there were mistakes made.

1st, this should never have gone on for 20 mins. I don't understand at the 4 and onwards min mark what you were waiting or hoping for.

2nd, the leg protection just look like wraps to me which would do little other than prevent a small scratch.

3rd, as you have heard the horse should not have been lead back.

4th, you are the barn owner I think, so why could you not have a say in this? I might be wrong about this, and I am not a barn owner, but I would not allow this to happen for 20 mins if I were.

5th, why can't someone lead a horse to a different paddock/pasture. I think you said earlier that this is not about to happen. Why not? Edit, I don't seem to be able to find this comment now, and I don't feel like spending 20 mins rereading everything, as I feel sure I read it somewhere in this thread.

Last edited by AlexS; 11-04-2010 at 12:57 AM.
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