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charging jumps?????....HELP!!!!!!

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    04-23-2009, 12:26 AM
  #111
Started
Trisscar, please stop posting one after another. There is a multi quote (mq) button so you can quote a bunch of quotes in one post. Thank you
     
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    04-23-2009, 12:32 AM
  #112
Weanling
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1dog3cats17rodents    
Trisscar, please stop posting one after another. There is a multi quote (mq) button so you can quote a bunch of quotes in one post. Thank you
I just do it as I see them but I'll try it. And things occur to me later ya know the whole OCD ADD ADHD APP thing.
     
    04-23-2009, 10:10 AM
  #113
Green Broke
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trissacar    
I disagree halting straight helps alot. They actually ask for it in the mini medals!
They ask for it to test the rider's ability to balance, stay straight, and execute a nice correct halt shortly after a jump. A medal class is a place to show off your ability to ride, not to train the horse.

It's not that it's WRONG to halt after a fence, it's just not nearly as effective as rebalancing your horse with a few exercises when you land. If jumping is dressage with speed bumps, why not continue to use dressage after the fence? How many dressage riders do you see just stop the horse to keep the horse from speeding up or getting heavy? Esp because so frequently what I see is people jump and basically use the arena fence to stop their horse. To me, that's not a proper halt and only semi-solves a few problems. Besides, let's say you're in the show ring and your horse lands in a heap on the other side of the fence. If all you can do is halt straight, what are you going to do? You can't halt in the class. If your horse knows how to rebalance by you using your seat into your legs into your hand, you can rebalance and keep going.
     
    04-23-2009, 10:50 AM
  #114
Trained
Fabulous post Upnover, you are correct and thank you for posting. Much more clear than what I was able to say.

When I cliniced with Dorothy Crowell - I speak about her allot because she is very influencial in my riding. Whenever she comes here, I sign up to ride under her.

Anyways - I remember the first time I rode with her, Nelson was an extremely powerful, forward horse. Because I was not riding him correctly - I was not riding seat into legs into hands - instead I was tensing up and riding hands first, giving him something to lean into.

That was when Dorothy really worked with me to change my way of riding and my way of thinking. At that time, I was trying to stop him directly after the 1st fence, but instead - she had me sit deep, slow my seat down, activate my outside rein, and do circles directly after each jump.

She taught me - to slow down a speedy horse, to ride effectively. Seat into Legs into Hands, and to do lots of flat work between each fence.

Dorothy had me work 1/2 of of the arena, while the rest of the clinitians worked over the exercise she gave us, with her assistant - she had me do spiral cirlces, making them smaller and then bigger. Then she had me go over a fence. Direclty after, same thing, circles, then go over another fence.

It isn't about going over the fence. It is about getting rhythm, control, tempo, lightness - then the fence.
     
    04-23-2009, 02:01 PM
  #115
Weanling
Quote:
Originally Posted by upnover    
They ask for it to test the rider's ability to balance, stay straight, and execute a nice correct halt shortly after a jump. A medal class is a place to show off your ability to ride, not to train the horse.

It's not that it's WRONG to halt after a fence, it's just not nearly as effective as rebalancing your horse with a few exercises when you land. If jumping is dressage with speed bumps, why not continue to use dressage after the fence? How many dressage riders do you see just stop the horse to keep the horse from speeding up or getting heavy? Esp because so frequently what I see is people jump and basically use the arena fence to stop their horse. To me, that's not a proper halt and only semi-solves a few problems. Besides, let's say you're in the show ring and your horse lands in a heap on the other side of the fence. If all you can do is halt straight, what are you going to do? You can't halt in the class. If your horse knows how to rebalance by you using your seat into your legs into your hand, you can rebalance and keep going.
I disagree.
How many dressage riders do you see just stop the horse to keep the horse from speeding up or getting heavy?
I have seen it many times.
     
    04-23-2009, 02:10 PM
  #116
Trained
I've never seen it - unless they are taught by an uneducated coach or are uneducated riders themselves.

Riders are to ride SEAT into LEGS into HANDS to SOFTEN. Everything comes from their seat. What your seat is doing, your horse mimics.

One slows their horse down by softening and slowing their seats down.

My Coach went A Circuit, and went GP Jumping. He schools under GM when he comes to Chicago, his students clean house in the A Circuit Hunter/Jumper world in Detroit and Chicago. He trains under a Prix Saint George Dressage Competator - and he teaches circles and bending through seat into legs at our lessons.

My other coach - from New York now living here running a large fascillity - A Circuit competator, another student under GM - trains the same way.

Olympic Riders I've Cliniced under -train the same way.

Circles, bending, serpentines between all the jumps. Slow, slow, slow - circles, bending - seat into legs into hands. Balance, back lifted, softened, supple, light, engaged - all through seat into legs into hands to soften - all done between the fences to slow a horse down - achieve this before the fence, you then get a smooth fence.


Back to the discussion of DRESSAGE FOR JUMPERS - very imperative to have under your training to have a well rounded, functional horse - and you being a well rounded, functional rider.

Strong theory behind it - proof is in the pudding.

Stopping DOES NOT fix a horse that is heavy and strong. CORRECT RIDING via seat DOES.

Training Scale as many Top Level Riders preach about -

Rhythm, Looseness, Contact, Impulsion, Straightness, Collection.

If you don't have that - you don't have a good fence.
     
    04-23-2009, 03:40 PM
  #117
Green Broke
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trissacar    
I disagree.
How many dressage riders do you see just stop the horse to keep the horse from speeding up or getting heavy?
I have seen it many times.

Really? Interesting. I'm curious, what is their training philosophy on this? (Or yours since you seem to have an opinion on the matter) I'm not saying you're wrong or trying to attack what you're saying, I sincerely like to understand why people do what they do when they're riding. I don't claim to be a perfect rider so the more 'tools' I can put in my 'toolbox' the better.

The way I see it, a horse gets heavy on it's forehand, you want to get the weight off the front end and activate its hind again. If you just stop, I would imagine the horse would just slam it's weight further on to its front end. That to me would not result in a great halt and would do nothing to engage it's hind end. But a horse that gets heavy that's asked to do some serpentines? Circle spirals? Even a few shoulder ins? Starts balancing it's body and using himself. And more importantly has the mentality of continuing forward. That's another thing I odn't like about halting after a fence. So many horses are not taught to keep going! They land in a pile after the fence, they start sucking back, they just lose forwardness, etc etc. So to me, a few exercises after the fence say two things 1) balance yourself 2) keep going. That's my opinion. But like I said, I'm not a perfect rider. I like to keep learning. So I'd love your explanation if you have one.
     
    04-23-2009, 04:06 PM
  #118
Trained
Again, excellant post upnover! WELL SAID! Very educational!

I'm curious to hear what Sypder has to say :)
     
    04-23-2009, 07:19 PM
  #119
Weanling
Quote:
Originally Posted by MIEventer    
I've never seen it - unless they are taught by an uneducated coach or are uneducated riders themselves.

Riders are to ride SEAT into LEGS into HANDS to SOFTEN. Everything comes from their seat. What your seat is doing, your horse mimics.

One slows their horse down by softening and slowing their seats down.

My Coach went A Circuit, and went GP Jumping. He schools under GM when he comes to Chicago, his students clean house in the A Circuit Hunter/Jumper world in Detroit and Chicago. He trains under a Prix Saint George Dressage Competator - and he teaches circles and bending through seat into legs at our lessons.

My other coach - from New York now living here running a large fascillity - A Circuit competator, another student under GM - trains the same way.

Olympic Riders I've Cliniced under -train the same way.

Circles, bending, serpentines between all the jumps. Slow, slow, slow - circles, bending - seat into legs into hands. Balance, back lifted, softened, supple, light, engaged - all through seat into legs into hands to soften - all done between the fences to slow a horse down - achieve this before the fence, you then get a smooth fence.


Back to the discussion of DRESSAGE FOR JUMPERS - very imperative to have under your training to have a well rounded, functional horse - and you being a well rounded, functional rider.

Strong theory behind it - proof is in the pudding.

Stopping DOES NOT fix a horse that is heavy and strong. CORRECT RIDING via seat DOES.

Training Scale as many Top Level Riders preach about -

Rhythm, Looseness, Contact, Impulsion, Straightness, Collection.

If you don't have that - you don't have a good fence.
My trainer was trained by John and Beezie Madden.I think that's all I can say.
     
    04-23-2009, 07:29 PM
  #120
Weanling
Quote:
Originally Posted by upnover    
Really? Interesting. I'm curious, what is their training philosophy on this? (Or yours since you seem to have an opinion on the matter) I'm not saying you're wrong or trying to attack what you're saying, I sincerely like to understand why people do what they do when they're riding. I don't claim to be a perfect rider so the more 'tools' I can put in my 'toolbox' the better.

The way I see it, a horse gets heavy on it's forehand, you want to get the weight off the front end and activate its hind again. If you just stop, I would imagine the horse would just slam it's weight further on to its front end. That to me would not result in a great halt and would do nothing to engage it's hind end. But a horse that gets heavy that's asked to do some serpentines? Circle spirals? Even a few shoulder ins? Starts balancing it's body and using himself. And more importantly has the mentality of continuing forward. That's another thing I odn't like about halting after a fence. So many horses are not taught to keep going! They land in a pile after the fence, they start sucking back, they just lose forwardness, etc etc. So to me, a few exercises after the fence say two things 1) balance yourself 2) keep going. That's my opinion. But like I said, I'm not a perfect rider. I like to keep learning. So I'd love your explanation if you have one.

Well if you have a correct halt the horse will not drop on his forhand and will use his haunches to make the stop smooth. A horse that charges soon learns to dart through the corners. When you halt your telling the horse that they can't always predict everything. Or turning the oppisite direction can help as well. Also when the horse comes around the second time he will be think about halting and that will back him off. After a while you don't have to halt but continue on. I know alot of top trainers he use this technique. But I've felt it work. The horse would charge
I would halt. Come around the next time they were fine.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MIEventer    
I've never seen it - unless they are taught by an uneducated coach or are uneducated riders themselves.

Riders are to ride SEAT into LEGS into HANDS to SOFTEN. Everything comes from their seat. What your seat is doing, your horse mimics.

One slows their horse down by softening and slowing their seats down.

My Coach went A Circuit, and went GP Jumping. He schools under GM when he comes to Chicago, his students clean house in the A Circuit Hunter/Jumper world in Detroit and Chicago. He trains under a Prix Saint George Dressage Competator - and he teaches circles and bending through seat into legs at our lessons.

My other coach - from New York now living here running a large fascillity - A Circuit competator, another student under GM - trains the same way.

Olympic Riders I've Cliniced under -train the same way.

Circles, bending, serpentines between all the jumps. Slow, slow, slow - circles, bending - seat into legs into hands. Balance, back lifted, softened, supple, light, engaged - all through seat into legs into hands to soften - all done between the fences to slow a horse down - achieve this before the fence, you then get a smooth fence.


Back to the discussion of DRESSAGE FOR JUMPERS - very imperative to have under your training to have a well rounded, functional horse - and you being a well rounded, functional rider.

Strong theory behind it - proof is in the pudding.

Stopping DOES NOT fix a horse that is heavy and strong. CORRECT RIDING via seat DOES.

Training Scale as many Top Level Riders preach about -

Rhythm, Looseness, Contact, Impulsion, Straightness, Collection.

If you don't have that - you don't have a good fence.
My trainer does the Grand Prixs too and coached a western rider to the number one in the country for their division. And did all the big eq. Finals. One of our students qualified for the Washingtion International horse show. One of our students came from Anne Kruzinski.
     

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