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charging jumps?????....HELP!!!!!!

19K views 136 replies 35 participants last post by  morganshow11 
#1 ·
So my horse Clippy is a barrel racer, but he also can jump like 5ft. And i have only jumped him about 3'9''. And now he is starting to charge the jumps how can i stop him from doing this???
 
#30 ·
I believe that Morganshow has been told several times that Clippy is nowhere near the levels she believes him to be trained. Unfortunately none of it has sunk in. Sorry, but I had to say it and Morganshow, please go watch a video of a 2nd level dressage horse and than compare it to Clippy. We can't learn from our faults if we don't admit that we have them.

I am also curious as where you got the experience to think you are ready to be jumping that high. You can seriously be impairing your horse's ability over jumps, which can be extremely dangerous. Especially on a horse that probably doesn't know how to properly handle his body in the first place. If you are interested in jumping I would suggest finding a qualified trainer and instructor in your area that can begin to point you in the correct direction. As many have said just because you CAN doesn't mean you SHOULD.
 
#31 ·
Like I said, rushing to the fence is always an anxiety issue. What are some reasons that cause anxiety?

1. they aren't balanced through the corner (they don't like feeling like they're going to fall down)
2. they aren't balanced to the fence
3. getting to the right distance to the fence
4. getting hurt over the fence (hit in the mouth, back, etc)
5. what to do with his legs (meaning: doesn't really know how to jump)
6. too slow through the corner and they feel like they can't get over the fence at that pace
7. rider is fearful and causes the horse to be fearful
8. horse is afraid of the jump itself (too many reasons to list)
9. it's too high of a jump then what they're physically prepared for
10. it's too high of a jump then what they're mentally prepared for

I could go on and on and on but I'll start with those. My guess is that your horse is not prepared to be jumping anything higher then 2 ft max right now. I cannot stress it enough, HEIGHT DOES NOT MATTER. It is QUALITY. The horse I've been working with that used to charge fences is incredibly scopey. My hope is for him to be my 3"6 horse, possibly 4" unless I sell him. I'm pretty certain I could hop him over a few 3" jumps now without it being an issue, but i won't. I'm going to take my time and let him get very very comfortable at 2'3-2'6, probably for the rest of the year before I start to raise the fences. This is a crucial time in his training for him to learn to use his body well and gain confidence. 6 inches doesnt seem like a lot but there is a TREMENDOUS difference between jumping 2'6 and 3'. Lots of people can jump 2'6, even if maybe they shouldn't be. No one should be jumping 3' unless they are absolutely prepared to. There is also a tremendous difference between jumping 3' and 3'3 and by the time you are doing 3'6 you should be a very accomplished rider. You can't be inaccurate, you can't be unbalanced or your will either 1. get hurt 2. hurt your horse 3. completely screw up your horse. The fact that you have been jumping your horse 3'9 terrifies me and it is no surprise that your horse is charging fences. I'm sorry if that is harsh but I'd love to get my point across that you have got to lower the fences and work on the basics!

I was very happy to hear that you are open to trying a little dressage work to see if it helps and that it does seem to be slowing him down. Remember too that just because he is nice and slow at 2" does not mean you should raise the fences the next day. Like I said, I plan on keeping my horse at the 2"6 mark for pretty much the rest of the year. My desire to have my horse jump well and comfortably is much more important to me then my desire to jump big.

And just to add... I don't consider 2nd level to be impressive or contain "the most amazing dressage things". Yes, I am impressed by people who do it well but a horse that jumps 3'6 should at least be schooling 2nd level if not higher.
 
#33 ·
Like I said, rushing to the fence is always an anxiety issue. What are some reasons that cause anxiety?

1. they aren't balanced through the corner (they don't like feeling like they're going to fall down)
2. they aren't balanced to the fence
3. getting to the right distance to the fence
4. getting hurt over the fence (hit in the mouth, back, etc)
5. what to do with his legs (meaning: doesn't really know how to jump)
6. too slow through the corner and they feel like they can't get over the fence at that pace
7. rider is fearful and causes the horse to be fearful
8. horse is afraid of the jump itself (too many reasons to list)
9. it's too high of a jump then what they're physically prepared for
10. it's too high of a jump then what they're mentally prepared for

I could go on and on and on but I'll start with those. My guess is that your horse is not prepared to be jumping anything higher then 2 ft max right now. I cannot stress it enough, HEIGHT DOES NOT MATTER. It is QUALITY. The horse I've been working with that used to charge fences is incredibly scopey. My hope is for him to be my 3"6 horse, possibly 4" unless I sell him. I'm pretty certain I could hop him over a few 3" jumps now without it being an issue, but i won't. I'm going to take my time and let him get very very comfortable at 2'3-2'6, probably for the rest of the year before I start to raise the fences. This is a crucial time in his training for him to learn to use his body well and gain confidence. 6 inches doesnt seem like a lot but there is a TREMENDOUS difference between jumping 2'6 and 3'. Lots of people can jump 2'6, even if maybe they shouldn't be. No one should be jumping 3' unless they are absolutely prepared to. There is also a tremendous difference between jumping 3' and 3'3 and by the time you are doing 3'6 you should be a very accomplished rider. You can't be inaccurate, you can't be unbalanced or your will either 1. get hurt 2. hurt your horse 3. completely screw up your horse. The fact that you have been jumping your horse 3'9 terrifies me and it is no surprise that your horse is charging fences. I'm sorry if that is harsh but I'd love to get my point across that you have got to lower the fences and work on the basics!

I was very happy to hear that you are open to trying a little dressage work to see if it helps and that it does seem to be slowing him down. Remember too that just because he is nice and slow at 2" does not mean you should raise the fences the next day. Like I said, I plan on keeping my horse at the 2"6 mark for pretty much the rest of the year. My desire to have my horse jump well and comfortably is much more important to me then my desire to jump big.

And just to add... I don't consider 2nd level to be impressive or contain "the most amazing dressage things". Yes, I am impressed by people who do it well but a horse that jumps 3'6 should at least be schooling 2nd level if not higher.
Upnover, I love your posts, especially this one.

I just wanted to add to the bolded section, they should be schooling it REGULARLY - dressage is NOT like riding a bike; they won't know it forever.

I do agree with onetoomany as well.
 
#36 ·
I've said it in other posts, and even in this one -

If GP Jumpers school Dressage DAILY and jump only once a week - there is obviously strong theory behind this.

I find it funny how people at low levels try to mimic upper level riders.

"Ohhh, he's in a GP, so I must get one too!"
"Oooh he's in the jointed irons, I have to get them too!"
"OH he's in a running martingale, that makes it ok or me to be in one too!"

Etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc

But they just don't stop and look at the time and effort that these riders/training put into their horses daily - dressage. For any rider to be successful at the sport they do, they have to put the trainng in thier horses first and foremost.

No one stops and looks at the training put into those horses.

All they see is jumping - jumping, jumping, jumping. So that is all that they want to do - mimic. It makes me so frustrated and I want to scream and pull out my hair whenever I see coaches at lower levels, not implementing the fundamentals with their students, so that they can be successfull when jumping!!!!

ARGH!!! Many coaches of today, just want to keep their student count up and wil give them what they want so that they can keep their money flow coming in. So - they don't do the importancies on the flat and teach how important dresage is....they just allow them to go over fences, just to keep them happy.

I hate it, hate it, hate it, hate it!

Any coach, who does not teach how important dressage is first, who does not impliment strong basics in dressage - is not worth my time, my money, my effort.

So to those who wanna copy upper level riders - try to start copying their training first.
 
#43 ·
Most low port snaffles do not have shanks like that. When you get into a shank like that usually it is attached to a curb. Plus I never said it wasn't a snaffle. You said you had never ridden him in a shanked bit but clearly you have, I was merely correcting your statement.
 
#79 ·
Okay first correction onetoomany - snaffles can NOT have shanks, or else it's a curb. A bit with shanks is ALWAYS a leverage bit and can be referred to as a curb bit. If a leverage bit has a jointed mouthpiece, it IS NOT A SNAFFLE, it is a jointed mouth curb bit. (Common misperception that a jointed mouthpiece is a snaffle mouthpiece - it is not. I'll clarify further in a minute.) :)

Next - morganshow - THAT IS A CURB. And please go reread my original reply to you on page 3. I don't feel like repeating it all AGAIN....


Back to bits!
Here's the definitions for everyone:

A snaffle bit is a bit that works on direct pressure to the mouth of the horse with little to no leverage because the reins attach at the same height in which the bit enters the horse's mouth. Regardless of mouthpiece shape, size, joints, or lack thereof, any bit working on direct pressure is a snaffle. In physics terms, 1lb of pressure on the reins = 1lb of pressure on the bit regardless of the type of mouthpiece.

These are all snaffle bits:




This is still considered a snaffle b/c of where the reins attach in relation to the bit, though it's argued that the drop cheek piece addes a tiny bit of poll pressure (not tru leverage as there is no lever BELOW the point of the attachment of the reins - thus making this a snaffle and not a curb)


A curb bit is any bit that works primarily off leverage to the mouth which can also add poll pressure and jaw/chin pressure, again regardless of mouthpiece. Because of the reins attaching lower than the location of the bit in the horse's mouth, it acts as a lever, thus the term a leverage bit, or curb. The longer the shanks (the part of the bit that make up the lever with regards to physics), the stronger the bit because again in physics terms, less rein pressure is needed to = more bit/mouth/poll/chin pressure. For example, on a 3" shank curb, 1lb of pressure on the reins will = 3lbs of pressure on the bit. A 5" shank curb may translate 1lb of pressure on the reins to 5lbs of pressure on the bit . (Estimates - physics math not actually tested but you get the idea!)

These are all curb or leverage bits:




Any bit that works with both leverage and direct pressure is considered a combination bit. In this case you would need TWO reins, one for snaffle (direct pressure) and one for curb (leverage or indirect pressure).

The most common example of this is a pelham or a wonder bit/three ring elevator (when used with 2 reins). Using a combo bit with one rein makes that bit act as either a snaffle or a curb, based on where the rein is attached.
Here are examples of pelhams/elevators:



Hope this helps!:D
 
#50 ·
I do personally believe that Dressage has alot to do with balance and precision and what not. but i totally disagree that you have to know Dressage to jump?? i've been jumping for about 4 years and have never heard that in my life. And my new trainer is HUGE into dressage, and she has never once told me this??

But anyways, good luck and i hope all works out!
 
#51 ·
I do personally believe that Dressage has alot to do with balance and precision and what not. but i totally disagree that you have to know Dressage to jump?? i've been jumping for about 4 years and have never heard that in my life. And my new trainer is HUGE into dressage, and she has never once told me this??

But anyways, good luck and i hope all works out!
You do not NEED to know dressage to jump. You NEED to know dressage if you want to jump well.
 
#53 ·
I just read the entire thread that someone posted with the link to Clippy's critique. Question, have you seen him jump 3"9 or did his previous owner tell you he could do it (like she told you he was a 3rd level dressage horse -3rd is what your previous post said- and that he was worth 20K) ?

More questions.. in the thread you mentioned that you cannot loosen your reins otherwise he will bolt with you. Have you resolved that? Because that's something that I would consider to be a huge huge issue that absolutely must be resolved before you start jumping him. What do you do when you go over the fence, can you release or are you still hanging on your reins so he won't take off? Are you jumping him with the shanked bit and the tie down? I'd really REALLY like to help you, for your sake and his. But you're going to have to really really want to be helped before any change can happen.
 
#54 ·
I just read the entire thread that someone posted with the link to Clippy's critique. Question, have you seen him jump 3"9 or did his previous owner tell you he could do it (like she told you he was a 3rd level dressage horse -3rd is what your previous post said- and that he was worth 20K) ?

More questions.. in the thread you mentioned that you cannot loosen your reins otherwise he will bolt with you. Have you resolved that? Because that's something that I would consider to be a huge huge issue that absolutely must be resolved before you start jumping him. What do you do when you go over the fence, can you release or are you still hanging on your reins so he won't take off? Are you jumping him with the shanked bit and the tie down? I'd really REALLY like to help you, for your sake and his. But you're going to have to really really want to be helped before any change can happen.
Excellent Post
 
#58 ·
I thought this may be useful for you -

Because of the way you are riding your horse, he is arching his back creating a 'hollow back' which is also causing him to carry his head high (besides the tie down). Anyways your horse looks something similar to this, does he not? -



When your horse should look a little more like this -

http://www.freewebs.com/canterburydressage/cosmo 016_low res.jpg

(sorry pictures way too big lol)

I just thought maybe if you saw the difference then maybe you'd be more motivated to get out there and work on that dressage! :wink:
 
#62 ·
I thought this may be useful for you -

Because of the way you are riding your horse, he is arching his back creating a 'hollow back' which is also causing him to carry his head high (besides the tie down). Anyways your horse looks something similar to this, does he not? -



When your horse should look a little more like this -

http://www.freewebs.com/canterburydressage/cosmo 016_low res.jpg

(sorry pictures way too big lol)

I just thought maybe if you saw the difference then maybe you'd be more motivated to get out there and work on that dressage! :wink:
Clippy does not look like the first picture, he tucks his head. And he is starting to look like the second:) The reson his head is high, is cuz, he was also trained as a saddleseat horse, mounted police, and a carrige horse.
 
#59 ·
I do personally believe that Dressage has alot to do with balance and precision and what not. but i totally disagree that you have to know Dressage to jump?? i've been jumping for about 4 years and have never heard that in my life. And my new trainer is HUGE into dressage, and she has never once told me this??

But anyways, good luck and i hope all works out!

if you aren't being taught dressage to build the essential tools to jump - then how well are you jumping? How good are your horses jumping skills?

Again - as I've said already....

If GP Jumpers train and ride dressage everyday with their horses and only jump once a week - then maybe your coach should be teaching that as well? If GP horses - know minimally level 3 dressage, and you aren't being taught how important dressage is, then I wonder what your coaching is giving you?

Maybe you should discuss this with your coach.

I have ventured to large barns. A Circuit Hunter/Jumper barns. Eventing Barns - even Fox Hunting Barns - where they are all taught how essential and how important dressage is.

There is allot of truth to how important dressage is to being successful at jumping and how important it is to impliment with your horse - for the better and for the welfare of your animal.

Anyone who doesn't train and school dressage, and jumps - are doing harm to their horses, and wont be as successful as someone who does.
 
#60 ·
Every friend of mine that jumps hardly practice jumping, but do almost everything with flat and ground work. The people that I see who only jump with their horses are very hot and out of control. Flat work and ground work are the keys to having a good balance (not to mention well behaved) horse and it pays for the long run.
 
#63 ·
Clippy does not look like the first picture, he tucks his head. And he is starting to look like the second:) The reson his head is high, is cuz, he was also trained as a saddleseat horse, mounted police, and a carrige horse.
From the pictures I've seen he tucks his head in because hes bracing against the tie down. I bet if you took off the tie down his nose would be pocking up like that horse. There are more clues to how he balances himself out, how he carries himself and how his legs are stiff shows that he is bracing against a tight rein and the tie down.
 
#64 ·
I am done with this, Morganshow... you are not taking any advice at all, rather just coming up with excuses.
From what I've seen in pictures and video, both you and your horse have a LOT to learn before I would even want to see you jump a crossrail - for both your and your horse's safety... not because we don't want you to jump high... we are looking out for your safety - I would hate to hear that you and Clippy got into an accident because he didn't know how to jump properly.
A horse is only worth as much as someone is willing to pay for it; I can say that Denny's worth $30,000 till I'm blue in the face (he was sold as a yearling for that much) - doesn't mean a thing till someone agrees with me and ponies up with the money.
Good luck in your future ventures, until I see that you're wanting to improve and listen to the awesome advice you're being given, you won't have to worry about my annoying posts in your threads. :)
 
#66 ·
I do barrel racing/team penning/endurance (Though I am working my way into the english world) and I do a lot of dressage (Even if it is in a western saddle).
If you actually have taken our advice of dropping the jumps and working on dressage instead, then I guess you have your answer.

I just can't seem to get you straight I guess. You say you haven't been jumping, but then say you are working on starting to event and have jumped 3'9 with him. Whatever the case, hopefully you begin to see that Clippy does not carry himself properly like the photos posted and needs a good solid base on him.

I hope you are able to find a good Dressage instructor.
 
#68 ·
I do barrel racing/team penning/endurance (Though I am working my way into the english world) and I do a lot of dressage (Even if it is in a western saddle).
If you actually have taken our advice of dropping the jumps and working on dressage instead, then I guess you have your answer.

I just can't seem to get you straight I guess. You say you haven't been jumping, but then say you are working on starting to event and have jumped 3'9 with him. Whatever the case, hopefully you begin to see that Clippy does not carry himself properly like the photos posted and needs a good solid base on him.

I hope you are able to find a good Dressage instructor.
About 4 months after i got him a iwas jumping that. Because that is how high the previous owner has been jumping him:)
 
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