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Form Over Fences

29K views 116 replies 41 participants last post by  caseymyhorserocks 
#1 ·
I see Form Over Fences changing very much from a Functional Form "Classical" which is what I grew up riding and was taught *because in Eventing there is little room for error so your form must be functional and solid*. Classical Form is what is known at the Millitary Style.

Here is George Morris representing the Milliary or "Classical Style" very nicely:



Now, we see something completely not at all what GM and other Greats intended for form over fences. Into this "perching" or "posing" form that is not functional at all - where we see a rider drop their upper body so low to their horses neck. The rider closes the angle for the horse.

I just don't understand why coaches today are teaching this?

What is the function of this form that we are seeing so much today in the Hunter/Jumper show ring?

So - here I am going through my collection *trust me, I have a collection* of Practicle Horseman, and came across March 2007's where GM gave a very thorough critique that I wanted to share:


~~~

Rider #1



"This Rider is skilled and attractive, but her photo is a snapshot of how even our best riders today depart from traditional equitation. I'm sure that this rider is a very succcesful junoir, but her mannered position is a travesty of what it should be.

I ask all of our readers to compare her form with someone photographed riding around 1955. They will see how form today DOES NOT concern itself with funtion, but only with posing.

I do not want to pick on this rider because she is only riding as she was taught, but our riding teachers need to reeducate themselves in the why and how of true equitation.

The most obvious flaw in this rider's position - and what is largely responsible for her other flaws, that I will discuss - is that her stirrup is two or three holes too long.

When a rider has to reach for her irons, she cannot use them for balance while her horse's motion lifts her out of the saddle. Instead, she reaches for the irons and then, because she feels insecure, throws her body forward to catch up to her horse.

As a result, this rider's seat is much to high out of the saddle and her upper body is practically lying on her horse's neck.

Despite all of these gmnastics, her leg position itself is good, with her heel down, ankle flexes and calf on her horse.

Her crest release, too, is mannered, rather than functional. Her hand should rest alongside her horse's crest, pressing into the neck as it provides support for her upper body. Instead, she has perched her hand on top of her horse's neck with a severely broken line from the bit to her elbow.

Again, this is what she sees all around her in the show ring, but it is not correct. And while some Judges do not penalize it, I would sharply mark it down in an equitation class.

This horse is lovely, with an alert expression, but he, too, is showing form problems that today's hunter ring has created. He has been schooled so much over rampy, low fences, that he has learned to jerk up his knees while he canters over the fence without making any effort with his body.

As a result, his front end is sharp and tight, but his back is as flat as a pancake from poll to dock. A hunter should round his back and lower his head and neck and he arches over the jump, rather than just stepping acros it as this horse is doing.

This pair is capable of so much more than we see here. The equitation ring has evolved from being a training ground for the effort of a 4-foot verticles and natural obstacles in the hunter ring, to being a destination of its own where posing and imitating have taken the place of real riding and jumping."


~~~~~

And here is a rider in Milliraty Form where GM gave an exceptional critique:

Rider #2:




"This Rider deomonstartes a strong, supple leg, with his heel down, ankle flexed, toe out in accordance with his conformation and his calf on the horse.

His leg position can be partially attributed to riding with the correct length of stirrup for this good-sized oxer.

The solid foundation this creates under his foot - along with an equally solid and reliable, traditional stirrup iron - allows him to follow his horse naturally without resorting to throwing his upper body or standing on his toes. As a result, his base of support - his seat and thigh - are just right, neither ahead of nor behind his horse's motion.

This rider's posture is impeccable,with a flat but not stiff back, relaxed shoulder and head and eyes looking for the next fence.

His short release, too, is very good - the weight of his upper body is resting on the crest of his horse's neck while he holds the reins with a soft, light hand. He looks like a relaxed, confident and skilled rider -one that I would enjoy teaching.

His horse appeals to me with his breedy head, alert expression and overall impression of honesty, carefulness and agility. His front end is fabulous, and while he is ever so slightly lower withhis belly than his legs, which could indicate of lack of sope over truely big fences, he is a lovely Junior or Amateur Jumper."


~~~


So WHY are we seeing so much equitation that mimicks Rider #1??? WHY are coaches teaching this unfunctional form? Shouldn't Hunter/Jumper coaches be following GM's footsteps since he and others started this sport in North America?
 
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#2 ·
That's so funny...I remember that exact article with the jumper in your pic 2. I always wondered about that posing style...it's kind of crude but I call it the "neck humper" style. My trainer told me that she guessed maybe it was turning into a western pleasure thing..."it's so easy I can pose up here at the same time" kind of mentality. Equivalent to the completely unfunctional reins looped down to the knees in western pleasure. Just our theory :?
 
#3 ·
I think it looks horrible. I don't get why so many trainers teach it. It has to interfere with the horse's jump since they're way up over their shoulders most of the time, probably before the horse even leaves the ground. The only thing I can think is maybe it evolved out of pushing rides too quickly to bigger fences and the ducking provides some false sense of security? I hate to use that word because I don't see any security in sticking my entire upper body over my horse's neck. Good post.
 
#4 ·
I don't really think that trainers are "teaching" this style, I just think they are not fixing it. There may be some out there that teach like that but I think most just don't fix it. I have been through about 8 trainers and have been riding for 10 years. I started out riding hunters then switched to eventing. My hunter trainers gave me a pretty good foundation and when i switched to eventing, and had to give my horse some time off, lost my position. This is when i started trying more trainers. What I really wanted was help with my position and not one trainer said anything about my position even a hunter/equitation trainer. (and many of these trainers were advanced eventers 2 of which had been to Rolex) I do not have a bad position by any means, but it is not perfect either. So, i've never met a trainer that taught this way, but many that just didn't try to fix it.
 
#5 ·
I keep coming across more and more people who jump like the 1st picture. It seems like jumping ahead is the new "style" and it drives me crazy! I agree with equineeventer3390 that instructors are not fixing the problem. They aren't teaching it, they just dont think that they should fix it. The sad part is that these riders are wining more and more and in order to be a "hunter rider" you dont need to focus on good eq but rather just lean and duck.
 
#6 · (Edited)
Do you think it is the coaches that we need to point fingers at? GM thinks so - and I do agree to a point. BUT what about the Judges??? Are they pinning these riders who perch and pose like this over fences, and that is why Coaches are teaching it - so that their students pin?

What is the cause of this?

I do believe, whole heartedly - that coaches are allowing riders over fences, way before they should be. How many do we see with unfunctional form - and going over fences continuously? No coach that I see, are putting their students on lunge lines. Classes are too big where the student is not getting the needed attention, and everyone is saying "wow you are such a good rider" when they aren't.

I think that is the biggest issue. Then I think another issue, is that riders are allowed to compete before they should be, so coaches teach their students to perch and pose so not to effect the horses movement so that their student can pin.

Another issue.

????
 
#7 ·
I agree that judges are pinning the riders who "perch and pose" and that might be why coaches are teaching it. But I also think alot of judging is political. I have been to hunter shows where the judge pinned a horse who bolted a whole lap around the ring 4th out of a class of 10. I know that they can't see everything but he carried on forever and I always thought that the judge watched the first few the most to decide places. I don't know, but it seemed the judge was partial to the big, stocky and also those that where chestnuts. I saw others that were more of the picture "hunter" not place at all than those that placed in the top. I see alot of ok riders on really expensive "made" horses pinning high while the educated riders on good horses they have brought along pin not as high. It seems that as long as you have money its not as important that you can ride because the horse will take care of you. I am not saying all judges are political because there are alot out there that are really honest, but I go sit and watch alot of shows and have seen my share of classes that were judged unfair. I have sat at a AA show with a judge who explained what he looks for in the horse and rider and how he scores it. It was really informative. Even in the pictures from your original post the of the two critiques the rider who didn't have practical form was riding a hunter but the rider with practical form was riding jumpers. Maybe its a change that is taking place in the hunter and eq rings?
Sorry to rant and sorry if i am totally wrong but those are just my opinions from what I have observed in going and watching the shows on the weekends (I go alot, I love watching)
 
#9 ·
I so agree with this. To take it a step further, a lady in my division at the show I competed in a couple of weekends ago, fell off of her horse while doing a course. I mean flew off! The horse went tearing through the ring and they went out of the ring separately. That lady still pinned 3rd out of 5 people. I thought if you fall off you are out but apparently not. Come to find out, the judge for that day was from the same barn as that lady. Talk about politics.
 
#8 ·
No, I agree. That's why I dislike the Hunter World very much. I think the Hunter ring has merged into a whole world of it's own, far from what GM and his comrade's wanted it to be.

GM wanted form to merge from what we see with Fox Hunters, functional and practicle. Not perching and posing.

Take the Crest Release - GM created the crest only for those who cannot balance themselves via lower body, or cannot support their upper bodies via lower body. But yet, we see it over taught, over used - and it turned into what we see with the first rider - perching and posing.

While I agree that we need to know how to use both, because not all fences are smooth - where at times we need to do the crest to support ourselves and not interfear with our horses incase we get a bad distance. But we see riders who have a great stride and the horse takes off at the proper spot, still doing the crest.

The world of Hunters has turned into something, that I don't even want to start to understand.

I am left shaking my head, understanding the frustration that GM and other greats must feel.

Lets look at Beezie Madden. Impecable rider, impecable form. That rider can merge from a 1/2 seat to a full seat in the snap of a finger. She can do both releases and fully support herself functionally over any fence. She grew up at a hunter, but as a functional hunter. She is a rider that GM highly speaks of frequently and I can see why.

So - why are we seeing form such as the first rider. These riders think they look good - but I am left shaking my head in disgust, because it's rediculous and far from the mold GM started.
 
#10 ·
Ok, we agree that the Judging is political - so is that why we are seeing this unfunctional form in the show ring?

Again, I like to point fingers at the coaches though - I feel that they are permitting to many holes in their students training.

Is this perching and posing due to the coaches not wanting their unfunctional riders to interfear with their horses - so that they can pin?

What is going on here?
 
#11 ·
As someone who's never shown, I'm curious if this is just happening with the younger crowd, or if adults are now jumping this way too? I was thinking about trying some schooling shows this year, but after reading how political this all is, I'm wondering if I'd be wasting my time and money?
 
#13 ·
I don't think schooling shows are as political. I have shown at a handful of schooling shows and found them to be very fair. I was at a show once where the judge was also an instructor in the area and she placed everyone very fairly, the first place rider/horse combination was a student of a trainer that she absolutely did not get along with. I think that schooling shows tend to be alot less political. Showing is definately a special experience and I wouldn't trade it for the world. Schooling shows are fun! As long as you do well with the "hurry up and wait" lol
 
#14 ·
I agree. As long as you realize that there is some political aspect to showing, and you just go to have a good time and gain experience then it is way fun. I highly recommend it. And I'm an adult and my classes are all adults so it's not confined to the younger crowd. But if you were thinking about showing, do it. It's great!

I do put some blame on the coaches, for sure. It all starts with them. They are supposed to be the authority on the sport so we look to them for guidance and structure. I would not be comfortable suggesting that my trainer totally throw out her methods when I don't know half of what she does. We just trust that what they are telling us is correct. Now I read books and magazines all of the time to increase my personal knowledge, but still, she is my source for knowledge too.

I think there is too much pressure from some barns to pin and pin high. Certain barns around town, and I'm sure all over the country, won't even take new students or boarders unless they plan to show and have a fancy horse. This can be tough for the people that really want to ride, ride well and become great horsepeople, because most of the better trainers are the ones that want to show. At least in my area they are. I saw a lady at this last show riding her horse, warming him up to go in the ring and at the last minute her trainer barks at her to jump off..."I'm showing your horse for you this time!" She wanted to be sure that the horse pinned, and they did. Kudos to her...a pro...for winning against a bunch of beginners. ::rolling eyes:: Now that woman, who paid damn good money for the show, and the horse and everything before it, missed out on a learning opportunity because her trainer wanted a shiny bauble.

I love my trainer because her whole focus is having a solid leg. She always emphasizes how a secure leg is your base, etc. I just got the newest issue of PH and there is another article about having a good lower leg. It looks like this issue is being brought into the light more and more.
 
#15 ·
Guess I kinda hijacked this thread, but thanks for the input. I think I did manage to find a good instructor. She's in the same school of thought that I am, good base and smaller fences until we're doing it well consistently. I'm too old to be doing things recklessly! I had taken a few years off from riding after a bad leg injury, so it took me awhile to get it going again. I abandoned the whole show barn thing years ago. I just can't take that catty garbage that goes on, but I do think a few schooling shows would be fun. I hope that new issue of PH is waiting for me when I get home tonight.
 
#16 ·
Great post IrishRider - I couldn't agree more with you, thanks for adding that to this discussion.

You are right MyBoyPuck - it isn't the height of the fence that counts, it is the quallity of the fence that counts.

I would far wrather see a rider going over an x rail with solid equitation, than someone over a 2'6" or bigger with unfunctional form.
 
#18 ·
I am glad to hear that you picked up the PH magazine! GM and Jim Wofford and others who are willing to take the time out to educate us at lower levels, is a blessing.

I absolutely love reading these informative articles, and I am glad to hear that you are too :)
 
#19 ·
Ugh, there's a post on the critique forum for a jumping critique. The poor girl is practically lying on her horse's neck and all the replies are saying she looks great. This perching thing obviously has a very strong hold in the hunter ring these days.
 
#28 ·
When I was taking lessons 15 years ago (God, I'm old!) our teacher wanted us to do the perching/crest release type of jumping. She said it was because pressing your hands into the horse's neck was the only way to make sure you wouldn't catch them in the mouth.

It's just a different philosophy I guess... Although I think you're less likely to fall off doing it the classical way because it keeps you centered over the horse. That's the way I jumped - Not really on purpose, it was just what my body wanted to do. My teacher harped at me about it, so I started opening my hands in the air so the horse could take more rein if they needed it and that seemed to satisfy her.
 
#29 ·
Was the show affiliated with USEF? I believe according to USEF rules if a rider comes off they are supposed to be disqualified. Why she would place above a rider who completed the course is beyond me. Sounds like a pretty big mistake on the judge's part if you ask me! Unless you're talking about the jumper ring. If you fall off in the jump off your clear first round still counts but you don't get any credit for being in the jump off and will place below anyone who completed it.

I'm also almost positive that according to USEF there must be 3 in a class in order for it to make and for the points to qualify, but it is up to the show's discretion to cancel the class if there is less then 3. If there were 5 in the class it should have been fine for points. Shows that adhere to USEF's rules I'm pretty sure don't just give out points to be nice for those who are trying to qualify. Rules are rules and must be followed for the organization and show committee to continue with any kind of quality.

Just curious, how do you describe "politics" when it comes to judging? At A shows I usually see more consistent and quality judging as the they are more qualified then schooling show judges. At the schooling shows I don't really see a lot of politics either but the judges are usually less qualified and sometimes make some weird decisions that I didn't always agree with. But then again our horse show committee president is very adament about our judges coming from out of state and have little or no local ties.
 
#31 ·
Yes it IS in the USEF book. But I had the same experience a rider fell off and still got last place cuz there weren't enough people.
Alot of shows just ignore the rule book. It says there is absolutely no coaching during an actual class yet people do it all the time.
I find it mind blowing that the person didn't place last.
 
#30 ·
Back to the original post.... do you think poor form is something new or has "jumping ahead" always been an issue? I honestly don't know. I do know that there are trends in the history of jumping. Way back in the day they used to not even break over the fence until Bert DeNemethy realized that getting into a half seat was remarkably more effective. Perhaps we've taken this half seat a little too far and have gotten sloppy. Perhaps we've gotten so focused on being 'pretty' that we've forgotten how to be effective. Don't know.

There was a fantastic article several months (maybe last year?) in PH about how hunter riders have gotten lax in their skills, mainly due to the simplicity of the typical courses. -which is a large reason why GM is a huge advocate in getting hunter derbies started, to teach hunters how to ride effectively again!
 
#32 ·
Back to the original post.... do you think poor form is something new or has "jumping ahead" always been an issue? I honestly don't know. I do know that there are trends in the history of jumping. Way back in the day they used to not even break over the fence until Bert DeNemethy realized that getting into a half seat was remarkably more effective. Perhaps we've taken this half seat a little too far and have gotten sloppy. Perhaps we've gotten so focused on being 'pretty' that we've forgotten how to be effective. Don't know.

There was a fantastic article several months (maybe last year?) in PH about how hunter riders have gotten lax in their skills, mainly due to the simplicity of the typical courses. -which is a large reason why GM is a huge advocate in getting hunter derbies started, to teach hunters how to ride effectively again!
Great post!

GM is always stressing how important it is for Hunters to get back to the origins of this sport he and others created here in North America. He makes allot of points stating how far Hunters has merged, from what he wanted it to be. This sport has become, a world of its own.

Especially with Judging and Form Over Fences.

If we go back and look at riders from the 50's - like GM always asks us to do - to studdy and strive towards. If we look at the Classical Form, for which we should be using - to what it is today *the rider in the first post* there is a huge difference, which I point my finger at the Coaches and Judges for.

I am about ready to pull out my hair - and let me tell you what, I am DISGUSTED at this from that is merging into the Eventing World. OH MY GOODNESS! You are going to get into so much trouble if you perch and pose like that over CC fences - GET A BRAIN!

But - again - that is because we have "all round" coaches who think they can coach Eventing, when they shouldn't be. I DO NOT believe in All Round Coaches, I wouldn't spend a dime on them.

If you want to Event -get an EVENTING coach. If you want to do Hunter/Jumpers - same thing. If you want to branch into educative Dressage as a strong foundation for your sport, then get a Dressage Coach.

This lax form - or perching/posing form is unfunctional and I would be one happy person to see it weeded out of the show ring.

Now don't get me wrong - again, a good rider will beable to accommodate their form and functionallity according to the fence. Lets face it, not ever fence is going to give us that perfect distance and us as riders aren't always correct when we approach our horses to that fence....so we need to learn to compensate.

A good rider can go from a 1/2 seat to a balanced seat in the snap of a finger. A good rider can use a crest when they get a bad distance to balance themselves to protect their horse and a good rider can use an automatic when they are balanced and centered.

BUT the perching has merged into a cheap form. A "Pretty" form - unfunctional. Pretty is as pretty does. I believe the crest is over used with lower level riders, which causes the perching and the posing.

We see riders using the 1/2 seat way too much. I can watch a vid of a hunter round, and see the rider in a 1/2 seat continuously - and even jumping the fence, before their horse is even to the base of the fence. Then they quickly perch, over close their hip angle and try their darndest to look pretty - WHEN the coaches should be teaching solidty, functionally FIRST before they even are permitted to jump, so that they can be educated, functional riders in the show ring - FOR their horses.

Again - back to Coaches - They are allowing riders to jump before they should be!!
 
#34 ·
Back to the original post.... do you think poor form is something new or has "jumping ahead" always been an issue?
I think Jumping ahead is caused due to Coaches allowing their students to go over fences, before they should be.

Even riders who have experience jumping, but haven't in a period of time and need refreshing.

I firmly believe that coaches are in it for the $$, not the riders themselves - so in order to keep the money flow, they give these riders what they want - jumping lessons.

No basic level dressage. No lunge line work. No proper training, education beforehand is given - just, LETS JUMP.

Perhaps we've taken this half seat a little too far and have gotten sloppy. Perhaps we've gotten so focused on being 'pretty' that we've forgotten how to be effective. Don't know.
I agree. I think it is because of a few reasons.

1) Coaches aren't teaching their riders how to be functional on the flat first and then over fences to be that well rounded, educated rider - so they teach their students to perch to not interfear with the horse...so that they can look pretty in the show ring and place....for the coaches name.

2) Judges. Haven't figured this one out yet...but if coaches weren't pinning the perchers or the "pretty" then we would find coaches not taking the short cuts.
 
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