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Form Over Fences

This is a discussion on Form Over Fences within the Jumping forums, part of the English Riding category

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        04-25-2009, 04:22 PM
      #31
    Weanling
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by upnover    
    Was the show affiliated with USEF? I believe according to USEF rules if a rider comes off they are supposed to be disqualified. Why she would place above a rider who completed the course is beyond me. Sounds like a pretty big mistake on the judge's part if you ask me! Unless you're talking about the jumper ring. If you fall off in the jump off your clear first round still counts but you don't get any credit for being in the jump off and will place below anyone who completed it.

    I'm also almost positive that according to USEF there must be 3 in a class in order for it to make and for the points to qualify, but it is up to the show's discretion to cancel the class if there is less then 3. If there were 5 in the class it should have been fine for points. Shows that adhere to USEF's rules I'm pretty sure don't just give out points to be nice for those who are trying to qualify. Rules are rules and must be followed for the organization and show committee to continue with any kind of quality.

    Just curious, how do you describe "politics" when it comes to judging? At A shows I usually see more consistent and quality judging as the they are more qualified then schooling show judges. At the schooling shows I don't really see a lot of politics either but the judges are usually less qualified and sometimes make some weird decisions that I didn't always agree with. But then again our horse show committee president is very adament about our judges coming from out of state and have little or no local ties.
    Yes it IS in the USEF book. But I had the same experience a rider fell off and still got last place because there weren't enough people.
    Alot of shows just ignore the rule book. It says there is absolutely no coaching during an actual class yet people do it all the time.
    I find it mind blowing that the person didn't place last.
         
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        04-25-2009, 04:35 PM
      #32
    Trained
    Quote:
    Back to the original post.... do you think poor form is something new or has "jumping ahead" always been an issue? I honestly don't know. I do know that there are trends in the history of jumping. Way back in the day they used to not even break over the fence until Bert DeNemethy realized that getting into a half seat was remarkably more effective. Perhaps we've taken this half seat a little too far and have gotten sloppy. Perhaps we've gotten so focused on being 'pretty' that we've forgotten how to be effective. Don't know.

    There was a fantastic article several months (maybe last year?) in PH about how hunter riders have gotten lax in their skills, mainly due to the simplicity of the typical courses. -which is a large reason why GM is a huge advocate in getting hunter derbies started, to teach hunters how to ride effectively again!
    Great post!

    GM is always stressing how important it is for Hunters to get back to the origins of this sport he and others created here in North America. He makes allot of points stating how far Hunters has merged, from what he wanted it to be. This sport has become, a world of its own.

    Especially with Judging and Form Over Fences.

    If we go back and look at riders from the 50's - like GM always asks us to do - to studdy and strive towards. If we look at the Classical Form, for which we should be using - to what it is today *the rider in the first post* there is a huge difference, which I point my finger at the Coaches and Judges for.

    I am about ready to pull out my hair - and let me tell you what, I am DISGUSTED at this from that is merging into the Eventing World. OH MY GOODNESS! You are going to get into so much trouble if you perch and pose like that over CC fences - GET A BRAIN!

    But - again - that is because we have "all round" coaches who think they can coach Eventing, when they shouldn't be. I DO NOT believe in All Round Coaches, I wouldn't spend a dime on them.

    If you want to Event -get an EVENTING coach. If you want to do Hunter/Jumpers - same thing. If you want to branch into educative Dressage as a strong foundation for your sport, then get a Dressage Coach.

    This lax form - or perching/posing form is unfunctional and I would be one happy person to see it weeded out of the show ring.

    Now don't get me wrong - again, a good rider will beable to accommodate their form and functionallity according to the fence. Lets face it, not ever fence is going to give us that perfect distance and us as riders aren't always correct when we approach our horses to that fence....so we need to learn to compensate.

    A good rider can go from a 1/2 seat to a balanced seat in the snap of a finger. A good rider can use a crest when they get a bad distance to balance themselves to protect their horse and a good rider can use an automatic when they are balanced and centered.

    BUT the perching has merged into a cheap form. A "Pretty" form - unfunctional. Pretty is as pretty does. I believe the crest is over used with lower level riders, which causes the perching and the posing.

    We see riders using the 1/2 seat way too much. I can watch a vid of a hunter round, and see the rider in a 1/2 seat continuously - and even jumping the fence, before their horse is even to the base of the fence. Then they quickly perch, over close their hip angle and try their darndest to look pretty - WHEN the coaches should be teaching solidty, functionally FIRST before they even are permitted to jump, so that they can be educated, functional riders in the show ring - FOR their horses.

    Again - back to Coaches - They are allowing riders to jump before they should be!!
         
        04-25-2009, 04:58 PM
      #33
    Weanling
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by MIEventer    
    Great post!

    GM is always stressing how important it is for Hunters to get back to the origins of this sport he and others created here in North America. He makes allot of points stating how far Hunters has merged, from what he wanted it to be. This sport has become, a world of its own.

    Especially with Judging and Form Over Fences.

    If we go back and look at riders from the 50's - like GM always asks us to do - to studdy and strive towards. If we look at the Classical Form, for which we should be using - to what it is today *the rider in the first post* there is a huge difference, which I point my finger at the Coaches and Judges for.

    I am about ready to pull out my hair - and let me tell you what, I am DISGUSTED at this from that is merging into the Eventing World. OH MY GOODNESS! You are going to get into so much trouble if you perch and pose like that over CC fences - GET A BRAIN!

    But - again - that is because we have "all round" coaches who think they can coach Eventing, when they shouldn't be. I DO NOT believe in All Round Coaches, I wouldn't spend a dime on them.

    If you want to Event -get an EVENTING coach. If you want to do Hunter/Jumpers - same thing. If you want to branch into educative Dressage as a strong foundation for your sport, then get a Dressage Coach.

    This lax form - or perching/posing form is unfunctional and I would be one happy person to see it weeded out of the show ring.

    Now don't get me wrong - again, a good rider will beable to accommodate their form and functionallity according to the fence. Lets face it, not ever fence is going to give us that perfect distance and us as riders aren't always correct when we approach our horses to that fence....so we need to learn to compensate.

    A good rider can go from a 1/2 seat to a balanced seat in the snap of a finger. A good rider can use a crest when they get a bad distance to balance themselves to protect their horse and a good rider can use an automatic when they are balanced and centered.

    BUT the perching has merged into a cheap form. A "Pretty" form - unfunctional. Pretty is as pretty does. I believe the crest is over used with lower level riders, which causes the perching and the posing.

    We see riders using the 1/2 seat way too much. I can watch a vid of a hunter round, and see the rider in a 1/2 seat continuously - and even jumping the fence, before their horse is even to the base of the fence. Then they quickly perch, over close their hip angle and try their darndest to look pretty - WHEN the coaches should be teaching solidty, functionally FIRST before they even are permitted to jump, so that they can be educated, functional riders in the show ring - FOR their horses.

    Again - back to Coaches - They are allowing riders to jump before they should be!!
    When did 'pretty' start to replace good basics and horsemanship. When did cutting off someone become acceptable?! I wanna know because I wasn't aware until I started showing how many people had 'types' and those 'types' were pinned higher no matter how good you are.
         
        04-26-2009, 08:26 AM
      #34
    Trained
    Quote:
    Back to the original post.... do you think poor form is something new or has "jumping ahead" always been an issue?
    I think Jumping ahead is caused due to Coaches allowing their students to go over fences, before they should be.

    Even riders who have experience jumping, but haven't in a period of time and need refreshing.

    I firmly believe that coaches are in it for the $$, not the riders themselves - so in order to keep the money flow, they give these riders what they want - jumping lessons.

    No basic level dressage. No lunge line work. No proper training, education beforehand is given - just, LETS JUMP.

    Quote:
    Perhaps we've taken this half seat a little too far and have gotten sloppy. Perhaps we've gotten so focused on being 'pretty' that we've forgotten how to be effective. Don't know.

    I agree. I think it is because of a few reasons.

    1) Coaches aren't teaching their riders how to be functional on the flat first and then over fences to be that well rounded, educated rider - so they teach their students to perch to not interfear with the horse...so that they can look pretty in the show ring and place....for the coaches name.

    2) Judges. Haven't figured this one out yet...but if coaches weren't pinning the perchers or the "pretty" then we would find coaches not taking the short cuts.
         
        04-27-2009, 10:41 AM
      #35
    Green Broke
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Trissacar    
    Yes it IS in the USEF book. But I had the same experience a rider fell off and still got last place because there weren't enough people.
    Alot of shows just ignore the rule book. It says there is absolutely no coaching during an actual class yet people do it all the time.
    I find it mind blowing that the person didn't place last.
    In a situation like that I think I would have asked the steward to see the judge's card. Perhaps there was a detail that caused that other person to also be 'disqualified', like illegal tack? That is a pretty significant error and one that I have NEVER seen in my many many years of showing. There's also a chance that the person fell off in a different class (perhaps her hunter I but did decently in her hunter II) and people were confused with what class what happened, or perhaps the announcer announced her class wrong, etc. Like I said, that's a pretty significant error.

    Anyways... again back to the OP! I don't have an answer or really even much of an opinion of what is causing a lax of proper position, but my question is, how much is 'acceptable' in the world of bad habits? When someone first starts off riding their position will not be perfect and you can't expect it to. It takes time, knowledge, and strength to improve. When a person starts jumping their jumping position will not be perfect. Even a person who did not start too early. What bothers me are the 3'6 medal riders out there who are still jumping ahead. At that height you need to be over the middle of your horse! Keep in mind also that everybody develops bad habits here and there. Hopefully they take the time to fix them. GM frequently tells people to go back to crossbars to work on a problem, as his trainer was constantly doing that to him. In fact I've always been known to have an excellent position but a bit ago the kids at the barn took some pictures of me jumping, and I was ahead! I was a little horrified (esp since they posted them on facebook, yuck!) and wondered if perhaps it was a bad distance. A few weeks after that I saw another picture of me, jumping ahead! I took off my stirrups and worked on a lot of crossbars. I was very pleased to see a video of me at a show last week where I stayed over my horse at each fence. Trainers cannot be afraid to drop the height periodically and work on basics.

    I'd have to disagree with the blanket statement that all trainers are in it for the money. Some cases, absolutely. Unfortunately I've seen a lot of trainers who simply don't know better. But I've seen several trainers who truly care about their students and the sport. I'd like to believe I am one of them. I had a student who I kept in flat lessons for 3 years before I felt that she was ready to jump. Her parent's friends who had kids who rode were telling them that they should move barns because I wasn't doing my job. Now she's jumping securely and winning and her parents can see the difference between our barn and others. They love the fact that safety is of utmost important at our barn and we simply refuse to move kids up when they aren't ready. Also, you can hound and hound a kid to, say, put their heels down, do every exercise possible to help them, work with them privately, threaten them, explain why heels are so important but when it comes down to it, it's up to them to progress. Not every kid naturally puts their heels down and not every student naturally stays over the middle of their saddle. Should they move up if they don't have the basics? NO! But like I said, I don't really have any answers. Just thoughts (and a cookie for you if you read them all! )
         
        04-27-2009, 10:42 AM
      #36
    Weanling
    I have to bring this up, only because it bothers me a bit when I see it, and it fits right in along with this thread. I don't know about you guys, but I try to look at every picture I can find of someone jumping, be it jumpers or hunters. When I flip through a horsey catalog, and sometimes horsey magazines, I find over and over again that some of the big glossy photos of someone going over a jump, the rider's leg has slipped waaaaay back, their heels are up, etc. Has anyone else noticed this? I can easily see why some people don't see how important that proper form and function is, because if Dover's cover picture has someone with their legs flinging all over the place on it, and they can still maneuver through a 4 foot course...why can't I? (I don't think like that but I can see where the emphasis on form is being lost across the board).
         
        04-27-2009, 10:43 AM
      #37
    Weanling
    To answer questions about that show, the show I was talking about was a B or C rated show. You have to be a USEF member to show here so I guess that, yes, it was affiliated with the organization. There was five people in that class and she ended up getting third, even though she fell off after the third jump and did not complete that class.
         
        04-27-2009, 07:37 PM
      #38
    Trained
    Quote:
    Anyways... again back to the OP! I don't have an answer or really even much of an opinion of what is causing a lax of proper position
    I don't really have any answers either, just opinions. But that's what makes this place great, is that we can discuss our thoughts.

    Quote:
    , but my question is, how much is 'acceptable' in the world of bad habits? When someone first starts off riding their position will not be perfect and you can't expect it to. It takes time, knowledge, and strength to improve. When a person starts jumping their jumping position will not be perfect. Even a person who did not start too early.
    I agree, but I feel that it would be that much more strong, if our coaches relaly spend time with their students establishing strength and functionallity doing flat work, trot poles, cavaletti's and reinless lunge line work before they allow their students to go over fences.

    Quote:
    What bothers me are the 3'6 medal riders out there who are still jumping ahead. At that height you need to be over the middle of your horse! Keep in mind also that everybody develops bad habits here and there. Hopefully they take the time to fix them. GM frequently tells people to go back to crossbars to work on a problem, as his trainer was constantly doing that to him. In fact I've always been known to have an excellent position but a bit ago the kids at the barn took some pictures of me jumping, and I was ahead! I was a little horrified (esp since they posted them on facebook, yuck!) and wondered if perhaps it was a bad distance. A few weeks after that I saw another picture of me, jumping ahead! I took off my stirrups and worked on a lot of crossbars. I was very pleased to see a video of me at a show last week where I stayed over my horse at each fence. Trainers cannot be afraid to drop the height periodically and work on basics.
    Yes, bad habits are picked up, if our coaches are not there to fix them, or if they don't have an educated eye to correct the issue before it gets worse.

    At least you see the issue and are willing to correct it.

    BUT allot of riders firmly believe - because they aren't being taught properly - is that the bigger the fence, means that they are a better rider. Which is totally incorect.

    Again, I would rather see a rider go over an x rail with impecable, solid, functional form - than seeing someone going over a 3'0" fence in a medal class with unfunctional, un solid form.

    Quote:
    I'd have to disagree with the blanket statement that all trainers are in it for the money.
    Don't misinterpret me, of course there are coaches out there who do care. But sadly, majority of the cases at low levels - the coaches do not. OR as you said, have no clue.

    Again - remeber the poor cycle that occurs of uneducated coaches turning out uneducated riders. Those uneducated riders, become the next generation of uneducaed coaches - and recycles.

    Quote:
    I had a student who I kept in flat lessons for 3 years before I felt that she was ready to jump.
    Good for you and that is fabulous!

    Quote:
    Her parent's friends who had kids who rode were telling them that they should move barns because I wasn't doing my job. Now she's jumping securely and winning and her parents can see the difference between our barn and others.
    THAT is the reason why many coaches just would rather get the weekly income of money for lessons, than taking it slow and progressively with their students. So that they can get that $$ in their pocket. They don't want to loose the clientel - so therefore they give what is wanted.

    JUMPING! I JUMP SO THEREFORE I AM.

    Quote:
    Also, you can hound and hound a kid to, say, put their heels down, do every exercise possible to help them, work with them privately, threaten them, explain why heels are so important but when it comes down to it, it's up to them to progress.
    I agree as well. And not every fence is going to give us what we want. That is the same as fiddling *I'm a fiddler* I can be shown how to do a double stop or hammer downs, but it is up to myself to apply myself and practice.

    Quote:
    Not every kid naturally puts their heels down and not every student naturally stays over the middle of their saddle. Should they move up if they don't have the basics? NO!
    I agree as well, but I do believe that the Coaches such as yourself, really need to stick to their guns and educate their students as to how and why. To not permitt climbing the ladder until they've proven themselves.

    Quote:
    (and a cookie for you if you read them all! )
    Peanutbutter/Chocolate chip if you please.
         
        04-27-2009, 07:48 PM
      #39
    Trained
    Quote:
    I have to bring this up, only because it bothers me a bit when I see it, and it fits right in along with this thread. I don't know about you guys, but I try to look at every picture I can find of someone jumping, be it jumpers or hunters. When I flip through a horsey catalog, and sometimes horsey magazines, I find over and over again that some of the big glossy photos of someone going over a jump, the rider's leg has slipped waaaaay back, their heels are up, etc. Has anyone else noticed this? I can easily see why some people don't see how important that proper form and function is, because if Dover's cover picture has someone with their legs flinging all over the place on it, and they can still maneuver through a 4 foot course...why can't I? (I don't think like that but I can see where the emphasis on form is being lost across the board).
    I have, and it saddens me.

    I grew up never even noticing this. Even if you look at prints or of decals or of monogramming on t-shirts, mugs, bags of Hunters - you see the drastic over jumping - with their toosh being shoved way up in the air and upper body laying on the horse neck.

    So of course lower level riders are going to look to all of this as represntations to MIMIC.

    That's the issue - MIMICING without understanding any of the reasons behind it.

    George Morris is always stressing for us readers and those who will listen, to look back at the riders in the 50's and their form. How we should use them as representations.

    He RARELY speaks of any GP level riders we see today to look at as examples. Only one I've read - which is Beezie Madden. I highly agree with him, I've really looked at many pictures of her form and she is usually dead on. Not always, but usually.




    So look back at the riders of the 1950's.
         
        04-27-2009, 07:59 PM
      #40
    Weanling
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by upnover    
    In a situation like that I think I would have asked the steward to see the judge's card. Perhaps there was a detail that caused that other person to also be 'disqualified', like illegal tack? That is a pretty significant error and one that I have NEVER seen in my many many years of showing. There's also a chance that the person fell off in a different class (perhaps her hunter I but did decently in her hunter II) and people were confused with what class what happened, or perhaps the announcer announced her class wrong, etc. Like I said, that's a pretty significant error.
    Oh no there was no mistake there were only 3 other people and she placed in every class.


    Anyways... again back to the OP! I don't have an answer or really even much of an opinion of what is causing a lax of proper position, but my question is, how much is 'acceptable' in the world of bad habits? When someone first starts off riding their position will not be perfect and you can't expect it to. It takes time, knowledge, and strength to improve. When a person starts jumping their jumping position will not be perfect. Even a person who did not start too early. What bothers me are the 3'6 medal riders out there who are still jumping ahead. At that height you need to be over the middle of your horse! Keep in mind also that everybody develops bad habits here and there. Hopefully they take the time to fix them. GM frequently tells people to go back to crossbars to work on a problem, as his trainer was constantly doing that to him. In fact I've always been known to have an excellent position but a bit ago the kids at the barn took some pictures of me jumping, and I was ahead! I was a little horrified (esp since they posted them on facebook, yuck!) and wondered if perhaps it was a bad distance. A few weeks after that I saw another picture of me, jumping ahead! I took off my stirrups and worked on a lot of crossbars. I was very pleased to see a video of me at a show last week where I stayed over my horse at each fence. Trainers cannot be afraid to drop the height periodically and work on basics.

    I'd have to disagree with the blanket statement that all trainers are in it for the money. I agree.
    Some cases, absolutely. Unfortunately I've seen a lot of trainers who simply don't know better. But I've seen several trainers who truly care about their students and the sport. I'd like to believe I am one of them. I had a student who I kept in flat lessons for 3 years before I felt that she was ready to jump. Her parent's friends who had kids who rode were telling them that they should move barns because I wasn't doing my job. Now she's jumping securely and winning and her parents can see the difference between our barn and others. They love the fact that safety is of utmost important at our barn and we simply refuse to move kids up when they aren't ready. Also, you can hound and hound a kid to, say, put their heels down, do every exercise possible to help them, work with them privately, threaten them, explain why heels are so important but when it comes down to it, it's up to them to progress. Not every kid naturally puts their heels down and not every student naturally stays over the middle of their saddle. Should they move up if they don't have the basics? NO! But like I said, I don't really have any answers. Just thoughts (and a cookie for you if you read them all! )
    mm cookies
         

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