Getting into two point too early....pointers needed - Page 2
   

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Getting into two point too early....pointers needed

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        11-01-2009, 05:01 PM
      #11
    Weanling
    Once again, MIEventer your post is awesome! I love reading your insight (:

    I used to have your issue a little...i didn't get into 2-point but I leaned at the jump because of slight panic. My old trainer figured that the way to fix this was to put me on a horse that would refuse anything and everything. *sigh* Not quite sure what fixed that issue but it certainly wasn't Leo.

    Sorry, once again I rambled on and on and on!

    Good luck with jumping!
         
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        11-01-2009, 06:02 PM
      #12
    Trained
    You're not rambling. I am sure the OP appreciates to know that she's not the only one out there with issues.

    Trust me, the best way to learn not to get ahead of your horse, is to have a horse that will stop dead in his/her tracks at the base of the fence.

    You must learn to stay behind your horse always.

    Yes, there are amazing lesson horses out there who do a great job, doing their job - regardless of the errors their riders throw at them continuously while over fences. These horses keep going and keep their rider safe, regardless.

    These horses deserve alot of praise and these horses do serve their purpose.

    But, it is those other horses out there, who don't cover their riders butt's when their rider makes a mistake or mistakes while over fences. These horses stop, veer, knock over the fence - what have you - because their riders made a mistake.

    These are the horses, that I feel, teach you what you do wrong, so you can go back and correct it.

    It are the GOOD RIDERS who say "My horse refused, because I did......." or "My horse veered out, because I was not doing......."

    The BAD RIDERS are the one's who lay fault in their horses. "My horse refused the fence, stupid horse" *sorry, but it is the stupid riders fault*

    ~~~~

    I learnt the hard way OP - and I have a nasty permanant scar on my right arm to remind me of it.

    I was schooling with my Coach the day before our HT at Novice. My coach had the fence at the max 2'11" and we were doing wonderfully. Beautiful rhythm, great approach, smooth, fluid.

    Until my coach raised it up over 3'0". I was approaching the Oxer and was about 8 strides away, when I looked at the fence and thought to myself "Gee, that looks bigger than 2'11" and we got closer, and I was still staring at the stupid thing. This time, I was sure it was much bigger.

    I dropped him and I got ahead of him. He stopped, of course - because he wont ride a fence without full support from his rider - and I kept going.

    I hit the fence hard and landed on my back on the other side, with poles on me.

    I sat up, Nelson still standing on the other side of the fence. And I saw blood. I thought at first that my nose was broken, but after my Coach examined it, it wasn't. She then saw blood gushing out of my right arm - right in between my wrist and my elbow.

    Low and behold, there was a rusty, metal jump cup embedded in it. Yep - that was my lesson learnt.

    We headed up to the barn, cleaned the deep gash with bedadine scrub and iodine shampoo. Wrapped it with gauze and hot pink vet wrap, and I got back on Nelson and continued on with our lesson.

    Do I jump ahead anymore? Nope. You bet your sweet bippy I do not.

    But it took my horse to refuse due to my error, for me to learn my lesson.
         
        11-01-2009, 06:53 PM
      #13
    Weanling
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by MIEventer    
    You're not rambling. I am sure the OP appreciates to know that she's not the only one out there with issues.

    Trust me, the best way to learn not to get ahead of your horse, is to have a horse that will stop dead in his/her tracks at the base of the fence.

    You must learn to stay behind your horse always.

    Yes, there are amazing lesson horses out there who do a great job, doing their job - regardless of the errors their riders throw at them continuously while over fences. These horses keep going and keep their rider safe, regardless.

    These horses deserve alot of praise and these horses do serve their purpose.

    But, it is those other horses out there, who don't cover their riders butt's when their rider makes a mistake or mistakes while over fences. These horses stop, veer, knock over the fence - what have you - because their riders made a mistake.

    These are the horses, that I feel, teach you what you do wrong, so you can go back and correct it.

    It are the GOOD RIDERS who say "My horse refused, because I did......." or "My horse veered out, because I was not doing......."

    The BAD RIDERS are the one's who lay fault in their horses. "My horse refused the fence, stupid horse" *sorry, but it is the stupid riders fault*
    LOL, me? Not rambling? I never thought I'd hear someone say that XD

    I absolutely agree with you there, horses that stop are invaluable to teaching a rider to wait. I've seen it work before. If the rider can handle having a horse refuse every time they get ahead, then it's perfect.

    However, if you aren't careful it can get to the point where said horse is destroying the rider's confidence and actually making the problem worse...this is what happened with me and Leo. I got ahead of him/stop riding/'turtle' up, and he'd stop. We'd come back to the jump and I'd panic about him stopping, get ahead of him/stop riding/'turtle' up, and he'd stop. Then the next time I rode him, I would panic before I even got on him, having him act up both on the flat and over fences. It was a nasty, vicious cycle that I wouldn't wish on anyone. I needed to ride a few horses like you described - those who wouldn't stop for anything, to get my confidence somewhere close to what it was before the Leo ordeal.

    Of course, now that I'm more confident and really need to learn how to support my horse all the way through the fence, Leo is perfect for me.

    ~~~

    Again, I agree with you! (shocker, right? Hah) Whenever something bad happens, I'm usually laughing and going "I was stupid because [insert mistake here]". It really irks me when people in my lesson have a refusal and then get angry at the horse.
         
        11-02-2009, 10:55 AM
      #14
    Weanling
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by anrz    
    Just wanted to add that I don't think that it will all happen over time/naturally.
    The whole thing won't happen naturally, but when it comes to closing your hip angle, you should let the movement pull you out of the saddle.

    Sorry if I was confusing
         
        11-02-2009, 12:48 PM
      #15
    Green Broke
    I'm in your boat for sure! Sandie and I both just started learning to jump about 5-6 months ago and my trainer had us doing grid work to teach her to jump for herself and me to let her without jumping ahead and trying to jump for her! Here's what grids look like...

    Bareback grid work with Sandie
    YouTube - Grid work with Sandie - bareback!

    Hands-free grid work with Sandie
    YouTube - Look Ma, No reins!!
         
        11-02-2009, 12:57 PM
      #16
    Green Broke
    Just finished actually reading all the responses and as usual, MIEventer, yours was full of great advice/information! Sandie is one of those horses who is SO willing to do anything for you, BUT if you jump ahead and she's already unsure of the jump, she WILL refuse it...and as you already know, she taught me that the hard way in a couple Events I did this summer!! Lol Luckily, I didn't get hurt the way YOU did (OUCH!!!) I can't believe you just wrapped yourself up with vet wrap (hot pink, no less lol) and kept going!!! Talk about dedication!
         
        11-02-2009, 01:09 PM
      #17
    Trained
    I don't think that just because some one is anticipating the fences means that they have holes in their training, it just means they are still learning how to jump.

    Grid work is great excercise for you & your horse & will help you to learn correct muscle memory. Even if you are just doing a grid of low cross rails & poles, if you get ahead of your horse you can easily feel that you are not in sync with each other. Have someone on the ground watch your position & give you tips on what you need to change in that moment
         
        11-02-2009, 03:22 PM
      #18
    Weanling
    Thank you to everyone who posted! You guys absolutely give the best advice. And I appreciate the long answers and explanations. I am comfortable trotting and cantering over poles. That was part of my flat training when I was younger (but stopping there. Never went to jumping). MIeventer, I completely agree that it starts with the rider. I would get no where if all I did was punish my horse for my mistakes. It my job to set him up so he can do the best he can. And honestly, its helped me so much that he isnt just taking me over everything regardless. By refusing and running out, he's teaching me that I need to do my job correctly. But I also know that he loves me and would never do anything to actually try and hurt me. Its on of the reasons i've tried jumping. I've finally found a horse I trust enough.

    I see your point though (and others who agree), I need to go back down to crossrails and really correct this at the lower level. I'm going to ask that I drop back to 18'' and work on my position there before moving back up.

    Again, thanks to everyone again for their advice and i'll keep everyone posted. I'll probably have more questions as my jumping progresses lol
         
        11-02-2009, 06:47 PM
      #19
    Yearling
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by horseloverd2    
    The whole thing won't happen naturally, but when it comes to closing your hip angle, you should let the movement pull you out of the saddle.

    Sorry if I was confusing
    ok I get what you mean now . I'm sure that I just read it wrong- I tend to do that lol. Now I agree with you!
         
        11-03-2009, 11:04 AM
      #20
    Green Broke
    SO so so glad to hear that you've decided to correct the problem at a lower height! Fixing an issue is so much easier when you drop the fence down a little bit, especially a problem like this one.

    Just add to some of the great things that people have already said... It's always important to identify exactly what the problem is. For this situation, you're anticipating the jump. What is it that you're afraid of? Getting the distance correctly? (IMO the most common fear of people who jump) Getting over the jump? Falling off? My guess (and I could be wrong) is that you're afraid you're not going to get the right distance and throwing yourself forward so you don't get left behind. What's happening though is that you're riding around 'with' your horse basically saying 'we're in this together', and then you get to the jump. When you throw yourself at him you're basically throwing him the reins in a panic saying 'oh my gosh, I lied, you're all alone'!! So in response he's panicking because you've abandoned him. 'if you're bailing i'm bailing too!'.

    It's very very important to be very still with your body, esp in front of the fence. 18 in is a great height to practice this on because there isn't that much of a push off the ground so it's easier to keep control of your body. And that's what it comes down to, being in control over what your body is doing. Mind over matter! Keep your body relaxed, keep your mind relaxed, keep your breathing slow and steady (and make sure you're breathing!), count out loud if it helps, focus on the rhythm/speed of your horse and being still for him.

    A trainer once told me, "don't ever EVER let anything come in between the communication of you and your horse". That includes fear. This is a hard thing to overcome! So keep practicing, be patient with yourself, and let us know how it goes!
         

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