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Bandit, Cowboy & bsms...muddling through together

221K views 3K replies 69 participants last post by  Knave 
#1 ·
Previous threads closely related here:

Mia's last day with bsms

Branded/Brandy , . Final name "Bandit&quot...

This post on the second thread got me thinking:

It may be time to start a thread for Bandit.

Rather than for Mia's replacement.

I'm not suggesting to cease caring and thinking about Mia, or forgetting, or even 'moving on'.

Only to look at Bandit on his own merit. Not holding him up to another.

I grew up across the street from a family with 9 children. The Mother was asked how she managed to divide her love between all of them. Her reply was that she did not divide her love, she multiplied it.
Saying goodby to Mia has been like a grieving process. It has taken a long time for me to stop comparing Bandit to Mia...and I probably will at times always, since Mia was the center of my horse riding world for 7 years.

But Bandit is his own horse. He can get nervous and light on the front and want to move enough to create some buffer space, but he isn't likely to explode out of total calmness. He isn't perfect (and neither am I), but he has a good 'try' in him. He trusts people to do good things for horses. He deserves to be respected for who he is, and not be "Mia's replacement"! Besides...Mia will never be replaced. I made the mistake of looking at the pictures in the thread of her leaving, and danged if I didn't get some sand in my eye again...

I also got a third ride in today on Cowboy. He's 13 hands, gets uncomfortable at times but I cannot imagine him losing his mind. He puts a smile on my face, which is the most important thing a horse can do.

So this thread will be my journal of trying to ride Bandit and Cowboy. Cowboy, for the next week or two. Bandit banged his knee in the middle of the night about a week ago, and his knee is still tender. The next day he managed to cut it in a couple of places and they are still healing. He puts weight on his leg, but there is a slight limp at times. If I was on him and he decided to spin and dance, I'm pretty sure it would re-injure the knee. So he is on corral rest now.

Folks sometimes talk about a good training program. None of my horses have had a "good training program". Never will, now that they are with me. I'm not interested in a dressage horse, reining horse, cutting horse, jumping horse, western pleasure horse or any kind of judged horse.

What I'm after is more of what Barry Godden called (IIRC) a Gentleman's Riding Horse:

GENTLEMAN’S RIDING HORSE.
The horse should :
go anywhere its rider asks:,
at any pace over any terrain alone or in company,

The full description might read:
The horse should readily respond to all of the rider’s instructions.
and to actively pass: over highway, along a road a lane a path or a track
at: ground level or along the top of a ridge, through woodland or open countryside
at any pace: Walk: active or extended;
rhythmic or fast trot: medium or extended
Canter: collected or extended
Gallop : fast or flat out

on any surface ie : tarmac, grass, stoney path, cobble stones or rock,
through puddle, flood water or wadeable stream

alone or in company of: other riders of every ability from novice to expert;
at the front of the line, in the middle of the line or at the end of the line

amongst pedestrians, cars, motor cycles, push bikes, lorries, tractors
under birds, kites, balloons, aircraft or helicopters

in wind and rain or thunderstorm despite plastic bags, umbrellas, road signs, footballs

in the presence of barking & aggressive dogs, goats, pigs, donkeys & mule

The horse should show neither fear nor aggression to any human, be they male, female, child or adult.

The horse , whilst under saddle, should permit the touch of any human
whether male, female, adult or child.

The horse must stand on the kerb, awaiting instruction to cross a busy and fast arterial road.
It must pass over a narrow bridge across a motorway
It must pass through a tunnel laid underneath a motorway
It should hold its line of march down a high street or a country lane with passing places
It must wait upon command at traffic lights or other stops signs.
It must stand attentively whilst its rider converses with passers by
It should move forward and move backwards to permit the opening of field gates
It should never ever, whirl or bolt in fright, in fear or as an evasion.
It should hop over ditches, streams and fallen trees.
It must submit to being tied to a hitching point without pulling back whilst patiently awaiting the return of its master.
It must stand to be mounted.
It must ride on or off the bit.
If the rider loses his/her balance, it must pick it up and compensate.


The rider‘s job is to set the route, the horse’s job is to carry safely both itself and the rider over the terrain, whatsoever that may prove to be.
If asked to trot, then the horse should trot, uphill or downhill until asked to change the pace.
If asked to halt, the horse should come to a halt and then stand awaiting it’s master’s pleasure
Never should it evade the bit nor jerk the reins from the rider’s hands.
If the reins are dropped onto the horse’s neck and no further instruction is given, then the horse should make its way at the walk back to the stable by the shortest.

Under no circumstance must the horse, balk, rear, buck or swerve for any reason - except in circumstances when the horse might realize that the way ahead is unsafe for example in land prone to bogs. Neither should the horse snatch succulent plants from the hedgerow however tempting.

All in all, the horse should be judged to be well mannered.

Sadly in the XX1st century , horses truly warranting the title
“A Gentleman’s Riding Horse” are very hard to find.
Invariably they have to be created,

BG
(Post #1 on the thread is also a good read)

http://www.horseforum.com/horse-training/anger-matter-carrot-stick-41675/#post477391

Another thread long gone by with food for thought:

Post Traumatic Fall Disorder - fear and riding

And: Joe a very special horse - one of a kind,

Anyways...I'll never get a horse to a Gentleman's Riding Horse status, but it pretty well sets out my goals. The idea of Cowboy or Bandit being a Gentleman's Horse would probably shock the average Gentleman, who might find them both a bit lacking in appearance:






But then, let's face it - I'm not overly endowed in the looks department either!

So having said goodby to Mia, and then having found her hard to say goodby to, let me try to focus on Bandit and Cowboy & I learning things together - muddling through, since none of us are particularly proper!

:cheers:

:riding:

Mode of transport Working animal Grass Travel Landscape

 
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#2 ·
Bsms enjoyed reading your post. I think you are doing fine with your horses, you enjoy being with them and that's what counts.
Reading the requirements for a Gentleman's horse was interesting. I think now with the mare I have that she comes as close to this as any horse I have ever had. She is such a good horse and fast becoming one of my best ever, most favourite ever horse that I have ever had, especially gratifying as she will be my last horse.
 
#3 ·
My wife actually volunteered to go for a short ride with me today. I can't remember the last time she rode. She sometimes finds Cowboy a little intimidating (even at 13 hands), but she had heard me singing his praises and said she would like to ride him.

I kept the ride down to 40 minutes since she hasn't ridden in ages. Cowboy waited patiently while she mounted. He didn't argue any on the way out. Cowboy led the way (as he usually does with Trooper), although I kept Trooper close behind and sometimes beside Cowboy. We just went along a dirt road near us.



About 15 minutes in, she made the comment that Cowboy was more fun than Trooper because Trooper carried you from A to B, but Cowboy seemed to enjoy being out and about - more eager, looking around, more involved. I agree, although Trooper & my youngest daughter get along well. You can see Cowboy looking around and thinking as you ride him. It may be the first time since we got Cowboy that he's been ridden two days in a row.

Nothing special, just 40 minutes of strolling along, looking around...but she said she had fun. And a little post ride grooming/grazing - something my horses seem to understand:


 
#5 ·
Now that I'm riding him, I'm beginning to appreciate what an excellent horse is hiding inside him. With some practice and conditioning, he could be an excellent trail horse. He's so low to the ground and yet so well balanced and careful of his footing that he gives confidence to his rider...you just KNOW he is not going to fall and not going to run away in a panic - probably the two things new riders (does this make me a new rider?) worry about the most. It is easy to relax and enjoy the ride...and a relaxed rider is a better rider. He's the sort of horse who has me - Mr "I Love Stirrups" - thinking about dropping the stirrups on a trail ride.

I'm thinking by this winter we might need to stuff some saddle bags with sandwiches, hay pellets and a bottle of Lambrusco and head out for a few hours...

:winetime:​
 
#6 ·
When I started to think that the previous name of my journal stopped representing fully what I was writing about, I asked a moderator if they would replace it with the more representative new title I'd come up with. So I went from "Life in a Trotting Stable", which was initially meant to be about the place in Lake Clifton where I grew up and the horses that are still there, to "Trotters, Arabians, Donkeys and Other People" - as I was starting to include my wider riding life and what was happening at the small farm my husband and I are developing here in Redmond, where we also run donkeys. That way I got to keep all my journal writing in the one place - like Wallaby, who changed the name of her journal after her Arabian mare died and she started over again with a new horse - which made me realise that title changes are possible! :)
 
#7 ·
I read "Discovering Natural Horsemanship: A Beginner's Odyssey" by Tom Moates yesterday. At about 160 pages, it didn't take long. Well before the halfway mark, I was shouting at the book, "Get on and RIDE!" Groundwork, groundwork, groundwork - just ride!
"Essentially all respected clinicians agree not only on the fact that groundwork is the key to safely training a horse, but that some combination of these exercises should be done every time you ride. If it is your horse you are about to ride, groundwork tunes up the minds of both horse and rider and reestablishes the relationship you have...Honestly though, groundwork alone is so rewarding its enough to keep me working with horses every day."
He later mentions doing 20 minutes of work before riding. He was new to horses in his 30s and describing his learning process. I understand. I was new at 50. But if I had been his horse, I'd have killed him to make him stop nagging me! He discussed at length his problems with mounting a horse, but he also describes it as getting the horse's permission to mount. Hmmm...I'm not huge on dominance, but I'm also not huge on letting the horse decide if today is a good day to go for a ride.

I could imagine the conversation with Mia:
"So, Mia...if it isn't too much bother, and if you feel like it, may I get on your back?"

"If you have to ask, the answer is no. I don't carry squishy wimps."
The only time in 7 years that Mia bucked was when my youngest daughter tried to use her for a lesson. My youngest was sitting on her like a passenger, and the instructor said that after 5 minutes Mia stopped, then very deliberately bucked hard until she came off. Then Mia just stood there: "You are unworthy."

I think much of NH comes down to this: "all respected clinicians agree". It is tough to hold a clinic where 4,000 fans go ride with you for 10-15 miles. It is tough to sell the idea that trust comes with time, and is earned by being trust-worthy, not by round pen gimmicks.

Horses need a leader. A leader doesn't stand around and say, "So...what are we doing today?"

On another thread, SueC wrote: " "If you think about it, the babysitter who continued to mentor from beside or in front of the young horse was taking exactly the same physical, and psychological, position as the mother of a foal will."

That is an excellent one-sentence statement of what I would call real natural horsemanship - horse training that works with how horses naturally learn things. If I dismount, then lead Bandit past a scary thing with me between him and the scary thing, I'm not just teaching him the scary thing is not scary. I'm teaching him I care about his well being and will protect him - to the point of putting myself at risk.

A horse in a strange environment needs to learn what is scary and what is not. It would naturally learn that from its mother and the herd. But if you take a horse raised in the very open country of the Navajo reservation, and put him in a place where he often can't see very far and where there are garage door openers and chain saws and things he never learned about, how is he going to learn?

It seems to me he needs training, not domination. He needs to be introduced to the new world by someone "older and wiser" and taught the ropes. That ought to build a trust that isn't built in round pens. Shouldn't "Natural Horsemanship" involve some measure of "natural"?
 
#8 ·
This response I started on another thread is getting out of hand. The more I write the more I want to write, and it relies heavily on things I've been learning over the last 6-8 months, first with Mia and now with Bandit...and some with Trooper. That isn't fair to the OP of the other thread, so I'll move it here.

It is in response to this post by tinyliny:

...I do not think that ground work or round pen play is all bad, nor is it worthless for a horse who is already pretty good under saddle. a lot of the time, a horse is not as good under saddle as people think, and probably not as good in the round pen, either.

however, I will agree that for most people, working in the round pen is as much for them as it is for the horse.
I can think of it more as a "let's see if . . " sort of place. I want to see if a horse will choose to come in, if he'll allow me to send him away, and how will he leave? on autopilot, or with an ear to me waiting for further instructions? how does he feel about being asked to move, then to move faster, then to slow? is he resentful and sticky, or is he goosing out fearfully?
that reaction will practically perfectly duplicate the reaction you'll get on that horse when you are in the saddle. so, at the very least, round penning gives te human a test cycle to see what sort of horse is in front of them today...
http://www.horseforum.com/natural-horsemanship/cant-join-up-622649/page2/#post8027241

"That reaction will practically perfectly duplicate the reaction you'll get on that horse when you are in the saddle."

I disagree. Here is why:

There is an old phrase. "Horse sense" dates back at least as far as 1805 in England. The Cambridge dictionary says it refers to someone with "practical knowledge and good judgment about ordinary life". Writing in modern times, and I suspect with scant experience around horses, they assume it is connected to horses meaning country, and the crude supposed wisdom of county folks.

But after 7 years around horses, I think it means the sense that horses have - a surprisingly practical approach and one that, given time, can see thru a lot of artifice ("a clever trick or something intended to deceive"). It is pretty easy to fool a horse once or twice, but I think horses show, over time, good sense in assessing people and their intentions.

It is one of the reasons I believe you build trust by being trust-worthy. Gimmicks work in an arena for a week-end show, but don't hold up over the years.

And while Mia could not sidepass to save her soul in an arena, she never failed me when I had a reason to ask her to do it on a trail - maybe because the trail provided context and it thus made sense to her.

If I asked her to do 5 Figure-8s in the arena, she became frustrated and irritable. If we did them waiting for Trooper to catch up to us on a trail between cactus, she relaxed.

She also was extremely calm when next to me on the ground. That was not true in the saddle. It is true of Bandit too. If he is very afraid of something, I can dismount, put myself between him and the 'danger', and he understands that I'll be eaten first. When I'm on his back, he's not convinced - reasonably enough.

I was taught round pen work almost before I rode horses. I took lessons in how to do round pen work several YEARS before I took riding lessons. Mia was the last of my horses to work with a professional trainer, and by that time I was getting skeptical.

I understand doing round pen work with an unbroke horse or one who is worried about being near people. I've seen it done, done it, and seen good progress.

But I don't think it has zip to do with "respect", "leadership", or even enjoying a person's company. Since my horses live in a corral, I spend a lot of time in their company in a "round pen" - sort of. You know the best way to do join up with them (other than carrying a bucket of pellets with me)? Just stand near the corral fence and talk with my wife. If the two of us are talking, the horses frequently come over and pay close attention.

An experienced farrier told me he never tries to catch a horse in a corral. He just talks to the owners and lays out his stuff and ignores the horses. Then (most of the time) the horses come to him. That might not work in a pasture, but I've done it often enough in our corral.

But if I want to be seen as the leader from the saddle, then I need to establish my bona fides in the saddle. And it seems to me - and I'm struggling to figure this out - I ought to do it the way Mia did: take charge, but then also establish a track record of taking care of my horses. I need to show them I understand the difference between scary and scary-looking. I need to show them I won't put them in a spot where they will be hurt.

I think tinyliny's thread on Harry Whitney ( http://www.horseforum.com/horse-training/harry-whitney-619937/ )brings up a good point by Mr Whitney. Horses crave clarity. They do not like uncertainty. So when I ride them, I need to be as clear as possible about what I'm after.

OR - I can let them work on things by themselves. It goes back to Tom Roberts idea of letting a horse go past scary things on a slack rein - giving them freedom, and support, and letting them work out at least part of it for themselves. But when doing that, I need to be emotionally clear - sending a message of "I know you can do it" and total confidence in my horse. If I don't overwhelm him by putting him in a situation he can't handle, then the horse will learn confidence in himself and trust in me - in himself, because he succeeds, and in me, because I knew it all along.

I think THIS is what creates willing teamwork between horse and rider.

If my horse senses something that worries him, I don't tell him to "Shut up and color!" I respect his concern. We look at it together...for 5 seconds. If it is nothing, I tip his head away and cue him forward. In essence, I say, "I see it, it isn't a problem, let's get on with work". But if the horse is too scared to get on with work, then I try to set him up for finding out I was right all along.

I limit some options very forcibly, if need be. We do not spin around. Any spinning WILL end up with us still facing the threat. We do NOT try to run away. I might ASK him to turn 180 and walk 75 feet, and then ask him to turn 180 back to the threat...but we will NOT run away. I limit those options.

But WE then face it together. If it is bad enough, I'll dismount, put myself in between, and then let the horse move closer one step at a time WITH me - and knowing I'll be eaten first. When the horse eventually realizes it is nothing bad, I mount up and we move on - in mutual agreement that it wasn't bad.

If I can do it without dismounting, all the better. On one of our last rides before Bandit hurt his knee, it took 5 minutes for us to go 100 yard in the face of a terrifying garbage can. But I wasn't worried, we did not turn around, we did not run away, I waited, he assessed the threat, I told him it was OK and he could do it...and we eventually got past it. And THEN we walked away. Together.

No one episode will win the battle. And since this is something I started trying with Mia, and am now still working on with bandit...well, it might fail. But it is based on my theory that horses have "horse sense", and that to get my horse's trust I must be trust-worthy.

And that won't happen in a round pen, because the round pen is too artificial and the horse knows it. The principles of "join up" work to convince a horse that something that seems scary is actually something you can relax around. But I don't see how any amount of round pen work will ever show the horse I (or humans generically) deserve his trust.

A horse would need to be an IDIOT to think that - and frankly, it seems to me much of the horse training I read about ASSUMES the horse is an idiot. I could be wrong on this, but I think building a willing partner requires me to assume my horse has a brain and he uses it with some degree of effectiveness!

BTW - I'm reading Tom Moates SECOND book now. He has, in his second book, concluded traditional round pen work involves dominance rather than trust, and he has a chapter saying "natural horsemanship" is a myth. But he also obviously still values round pen work for experienced horses. I haven't finished the book, but will post here when I do. It is MUCH better than his first book.
 
#9 ·
I think your point of view is intriguing and i agree that trust must be earned by proving that we are trust worthy. But I feel I can accomplish that any where, be it out on the trail or in the round pen, by always being fair and consistent. Being fair meaning -- never asking the horse to do something he is not ready for, making sure i properly prepare him for things in life so that he's not thrown into a situation where he has zero idea where to look for release, not putting the horse in a situation to get hurt, making sure the punishment fits the crime and when correction is needed, getting in them a right out quickly forgiving and moving on. Those are just some examples.

I use the roundpen for a number of things, even with older horses, mainly 'checking up'(my saddle has way better feel and timing than my hand will probably ever have). I like the fact that i can leave them alone to figure things out on their own and i believe it helps them step up and take responsibility for themselves instead of me having to be right there all the tine babysitting and constantly applying corrections. I'm a big believer in letting them work it out themselves whenever possible.
I do like to work on lope to trot transitions a little when they're checked up, as it is one of the most (if not THE most) important piece of the puzzle when teaching sliding stops, spins and rate on a cow. In the round pen the horse can work out how to balance himself in the transition without me interferring on his back and i can see exactly what his feet are doing (i don't always trust my feel. I oftwn question myself)
Doug Williamson has a drill he does in the roundpen where he can teach a horse to go into a reiner spin with just a cluck from him and they will keep spinning until he says woah. I have yet to master this drill; according to Doug most people never do. I will also use the roundpen to take some of the fresh off one that has sat for a bit and is likely to get stupid with me if I just climb on. I don't try to tire them out, just looking to get their mind focused and on me.
Any work i do with them in the round pen (or anywhete really) I'm always careful not to over do it. I don't like standing in the round pen, I'm pretty sure it's only a mile from the sun. I'd much rather ride. So when i do need to do work in there,i always have a clear goal in mind and i try to look for the first place the horse shows signs of getting it and quit there. I want round pen sessions as short as possible.

I feel like thequote you posted from Tom Moates first book ahould read something more like:"Essentially all respected clinicians agree that we lack the experience and ability to really teach anyone the more nuanced and advanced skill involved in sucessfully work and training a horse from it's back. Otherwise we'd be successful upper level trainers. But we're just guys who know how to sell people crap, sooo excessive, mindless groundwork it is!!"
I'm sure someone's going to be butthurt about me making fun of their NH gods like that, but for real have you seen some of those guys try to actually ride a horse? Underwhelming is putting very nicely.
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#10 ·
Well, then I 'm just gonna say that what I've been doing in the round pen is for me. it makes me a better rider /handler of a hrose. especially recently, as I've learned a bit more about waiting a bit and making sure the hrose isn't searching for the answer before I jump in and "correct him". that bit of waiting for him, allowing him to think aobut and maybe struggle a bit has made a big differnence in the way the horse feels to me. in fact, today, I was really aware of how he changed his feeling in minute ways. there's just a way the skin goes from tight to lose , that tells you he's feeling better about things.

and, approaching the encounter with the paradigm that you are going to try and help them feel better, that gets ME to be more aware of what I am asking. it improves my clarity such that I need to do less and less, and THAT ALONE makes the horse feel better.


in fact, as I think about it, my whole time with horses has been about being able to do more and more by doing less and less. horses really HATE it when we put in more pressure than necessary, and especially when they were ready to respond to a lot less. it's a real affront. that's not to say that I won't put on a fair amount of sudden pressure to a hrose that is sleepwalking. HE wouldn't have responded to less, so if it upsets him, that's his own fault.
 
#11 ·
"Especially recently, as I've learned a bit more about waiting a bit and making sure the hrose isn't searching for the answer before I jump in and "correct him". That bit of waiting for him, allowing him to think aobut and maybe struggle a bit has made a big differnence in the way the horse feels to me."

I suspect we all learn lessons, and some lessons are learned from different angles. With me, riding Bandit, there are a lot of things just in our neighborhood - riding down residential streets - that stress him more than what is in the desert. That makes sense, given that he has roamed loose in a herd on the Navajo reservation. The desert makes more sense to him than a residential area.



With Mia, last winter and spring, I was trying to trust her to work her way past things on a slack rein. We were making some progress, but I was still focused on 'getting past' instead of 'figure it out with my support and encouragement'.

With Bandit, I've been trying to give the time it takes to let him work it out - with some constraints from me. No spinning, no running away...but what else can you think to do? The lady I took lessons from had some faults, but she said something that stuck with me. She said we cannot MAKE a horse make the right choice. But we can reject his wrong choices and wait for him to make the right one.

If Bandit was calmer, I might need to find a way to do that in a round pen. But since he does get nervous just walking through a neighborhood, I can use that as a teaching moment:

"You are nervous. I am not. We won't run away, but what else can you think of to do? Let's work on this together." I never did that with Mia. But after reading some of the HF journals and thinking about what is going on, I'm trying it now. I'm trying to teach him to think about things and respond sensibly.

"If you think about it, the babysitter who continued to mentor from beside or in front of the young horse was taking exactly the same physical, and psychological, position as the mother of a foal will."

So a 57 year old guy is trying to assume the role of a mother horse. :eek_color: A foal assumes the mother will take care of him and knows best. I need to teach Bandit that humans are like his dam - knowledgeable about the world AND willing to guide and protect him. But like the dam, my goal is for him to 'grow up' instead of 'join up' - to learn for himself AND to accept that when we go out alone, he is NOT alone. That we are alone together. We are a herd.

"There's just a way the skin goes from tight to lose , that tells you he's feeling better about things."

I agree. With Bandit, it is extreme - from neck vertical to neck at 30 deg. From back like an I-beam to relaxed.

But riding Trooper the other day, it was much more subtle. Trooper was severely spurred by a cowboy. He doesn't like guys. He'll obey men, but he doesn't enjoy our company. Trooper's spur scars:



On another journal thread, folks have speculated that a horse who has been overloaded with pressure finds the mere presence of a human to be pressure. In Trooper's case, maybe he finds a guy with a type A personality stressful - not because I'm DOING something to him, but because I am what I am.

" Horses really HATE it when we put in more pressure than necessary, and especially when they were ready to respond to a lot less. It's a real affront."

Arguably, Trooper has been grossly offended, then. By a guy. And probably by me, too. I rode him a lot during the time I stopped riding Mia. But my goal was all about ME - MY balance, MY learning to ride. After all, Trooper was an obedient horse. What more could I ask?

But Mia & Bandit & Cowboy are showing me that if I ask more, I sometimes get more. I've been working with Bandit to get him to "talk to me" - to feel free to let me know he is worried, or concerned. That he is free to look around, and if he sees something of interest we can look at it together. And work together to handle it.

Trooper does great with my youngest, who is probably the least demanding rider I've ever seen. Maybe 16 year old Trooper needs to learn what I've been trying to teach 7 year old Bandit - it is OK to talk to your rider even if your rider is a type A guy!

"In fact, as I think about it, my whole time with horses has been about being able to do more and more by doing less and less."

If I had read that sentence two years ago, I'd have thought you had lost your mind. Now I think maybe you've found it. Maybe I'm finding mine, too.

I cannot speak to those who compete with horses. But for those more interested in trail riding or even just arena riding for fun, getting a horse who feels free to talk with you, who interacts with you and who is engaged in what you both are doing together - THAT feels like 'horsemanship' to me. Not just riding, but understanding and interacting with the horse. Teaching the horse confidence with humans. Getting a willing partner instead of just an obedient servant. To go from being the command center to the coach...
 
#12 ·
I cannot speak to those who compete with horses. But for those more interested in trail riding or even just arena riding for fun, getting a horse who feels free to talk with you, who interacts with you and who is engaged in what you both are doing together - THAT feels like 'horsemanship' to me. Not just riding, but understanding and interacting with the horse. Teaching the horse confidence with humans. Getting a willing partner instead of just an obedient servant. To go from being the command center to the coach...
We started with arena and trails for fun 35 years ago, with our family's first two horses. (Dad had ploughed with horses as a young boy, and been taught by the farmers he worked for in order to help support his family during the war, when his father was in a Siberian prison camp for years, to drive carriages and ride bareback on the carriage horses as well.) This was exactly our ethos, and it seems it's a far more common ethos in Europe than in Australia or the US. Lisbeth Pahnke-Airosto sent me a recent copy of Ridsport (Swedish horse magazine) for which she wrote some features. She and her team have just finished arranging the 2015 European Championships for ponies in Showjumping, Dressage and Eventing (and Lisbeth was happy that the Swedish got the bronze medal :)). She also pointed out to me an article on horse education written by a Bulgarian trainer she works with, and I'm not surprised that all the photos show happy, relaxed horses and humans who have a very obvious affection for their horses (the biggest photo shows the trainer and horse cheek to cheek with the most marvellous expressions on their faces). Now I just have to translate what he's actually saying from Swedish to English!

Anyway, Lisbeth Pahnke-Airosto wrote a very influential and educational series of horse novels based on her own experiences, that guided and inspired many young riders in Europe, including yours truly, from the 1970s onwards. It was this very ethos that was embodied in her books and that she passed on to many of her readers. Lisbeth Pahnke-Airosto can speak to this ethos working wonderfully in competitions - Showjumping has been her personal favourite. And our family can confirm that this ethos also works marvellously in competitive harness racing, which my father has now done for 30 years (coming runner-up in the Triple Crown Classic with his very first horse as a qualified trainer-reinsman back in 1986, and having had a row of successful horses over the years). I can confirm it works marvellously for competitive endurance, ridden gymkhana events like barrel and bending races, and dressage and horse shows, which I participated in with my late Arabian mare, who was the first horse I trained from scratch, and educated to saddle and harness according to this ethos... which was an ethos that was also shared by my instructor in the European riding school where I learnt to ride at the age of nine.

Nobody I knew in Europe ever did "join-ups" or anything like that, and we've never done that either. The European style of training is very different. It has a spectrum ranging from kind to cold like anywhere, but in my youth I was surrounded mostly by people with the kind approach, who, it was my observation, never seemed to have the same sorts of problems with their horses as the ones who didn't seem to prize making a genuine connection with their animals, and who were in it mostly for ambition.


I'm just going to post the two photos that went with that baby-sitter quote bsms has been citing, so people can see for themselves what that looked like in harness education:

This is my father and me in the mid-1980s training Classic Juliet to go in the cart when she was somewhere between one and two years old, which is the usual age we were getting young horses used to a cart.



At the critical stages we always had two people with a horse. Here I elected to drive and dad to lead. This was her first lap around the sand track with a driver. She'd been long reined extensively in preparation and had been familiarised with the cart. Next stage after this would be my father driving and me babysitting at the head, without a lead rope, just for the horse's confidence. The person at the head got pretty fit! :smile:



If you think about it, the babysitter who continued to mentor from beside or in front of the young horse was taking exactly the same physical, and psychological, position as the mother of a foal will. We found that this helped the young horses' confidence no end, and they soon did independently what they had been taught initially with their babysitter present - just like in a herd learning situation. (In a herd, the inexperienced horses will never be pushed to the front in a scary situation - they will be shielded by their mothers, and other mentors. Yet many humans will, unnaturally, push the horses to be the first when there is a scary situation...instead of protecting them.)

I make a similar argument about the helpfulness, in certain situations, of getting off a riding horse and adopting the same physical and psychological position when dealing with something scary or new. I always find the horse really relaxes if it sees me touch the thing of which it is so frightened. Pretty soon, in most cases, if you give it time and are relaxed about it (and don't try to
force the horse closer), the horse will be approaching and sniffing the scary thing itself.

Italicised parts were excerpts from the original post. To me, of course, this is all second nature and makes complete sense in a way that some of the ideas I've seen on horse training really do not. Some of them seem to completely ignore that the horse is a sentient being with intelligence and dignity, and no less an intrinsic value than a human being actually (although many people subscribe to the humans-as-the-pinnacle-of-life idea...well, I don't, and as a result of not looking at horses with low expectations, I see how magnificent they actually are). :)
 
#13 ·
I don't think working WITH the horse is as rare as some DVD trainers make it seem. There are ranches where a cowboy will spur a horse bloody like was done to Trooper, but there are many ranches where the cowboy would be fired on the spot. Trooper's home ranch assigned him to working sheep because that was what he was good at, while his sire was assigned to working rough cattle because that is what the stallion loved to do.

I think the 'total dominance' approach is more common in competitive sports. If you are riding like this, the horse MUST be engaged:



Emory H. Sager, of the Shoe Bar, on "Old Blue" his favorite cutting horse, working the herd out on roundup grounds. Shoe Bar Ranch, Texas, 1912

Erwin E. Smith Collection Guide | Collection Guide

If you do a search for pictures of cutting horses, you won't seen much resentment. They mostly look like this random Internet picture:



I honestly haven't seen any resentful looking horses on a trail ride. I certainly have been on a horse who became scared during a trail ride. I've been on tired horses. But I haven't seen or ridden one who seemed to resent the ride.

A person can take it to the opposite extreme. Tom Moates second book was better than his first, but it still drove me nuts. Near the end, he describes riding a horse he's owned for years.
I grew completely aghast to find out that with every step or two, Niji left me mentally...Before, what I considered to be a horse willfully following my lead as we rode ten steps calmly and happily, instead was really nothing more than Niji going where he wanted to go. I just happened to be up on his back and wanting to go to the same place by coincidence. Then, when I asked for something different, his mind was long gone elsewhere and he wasn't real happy about changing it...

...I started to ride after that sideline help by checking in with Niji every step or two. Literally, I advanced a step and lifted one rein a little to see if his head gave to the ask instantly...If his mind was elsewhere and not right there available to my request, then I worked to bring his head around and disengage the hind quarters until his thought came around too." pages 101-102
That just struck me as sooooo wrong! If I'm out jogging with a friend, we might cover a half mile without talking. That is OK. We're jogging together. If I go out shooting with my SIL, we don't talk much - but those are the times when he is likely to talk about what happened during his two tours in Iraq. You ought to be able to ride a horse like walking with a friend - together, but not obsessed with each other! I don't want my horse continuously trying to stay with me mentally. Who could have fun like that?

And making a horse turn and disengage is hard on the horse. It is no gentler than hitting the horse with a crop every time it stops focusing on you! Now the horse isn't with you because you are a good person to be with, but because you will "bring his head around and disengage the hind quarters" if he doesn't! Between that sort of pestering and the never ending round pen work he advocates, the horse probably feels like he is being stalked - like a cute girl getting 23 phone calls a day from someone who wants her attention. Moates wants to build a relationship with the horse, but the phrase "He's Just Not That Into You" comes to mind!

There ought to be a happy medium between trying to control the horse's every step and expecting the horse to fall in love with you. If you want obsessed devotion, get a Border Collie. Mine is 2 feet away right now, and he'll follow me to the bathroom whether I want it or not. I have to close the door to keep him out. After all, one never knows if sheep will come tumbling out of the faucet and need to be herded!

It seems to me we should set boundaries - ones that are acceptable to us - and then give the horse freedom within those boundaries. Like kids, horses need and want boundaries. And like kids, horses need freedom. I shouldn't beat them, but neither should I be offended if we don't "bond". "Working together" is fine.

It is OK if my horse doesn't send me flowers (or in my case, buy me a box of ammo :loveshower: ) for my birthday!
 
#16 ·

I grew completely aghast to find out that with every step or two, Niji left me mentally...Before, what I considered to be a horse willfully following my lead as we rode ten steps calmly and happily, instead was really nothing more than Niji going where he wanted to go. I just happened to be up on his back and wanting to go to the same place by coincidence. Then, when I asked for something different, his mind was long gone elsewhere and he wasn't real happy about changing it...

...I started to ride after that sideline help by checking in with Niji every step or two. Literally, I advanced a step and lifted one rein a little to see if his head gave to the ask instantly...If his mind was elsewhere and not right there available to my request, then I worked to bring his head around and disengage the hind quarters until his thought came around too." pages 101-102
There ought to be a happy medium between trying to control the horse's every step and expecting the horse to fall in love with you.
For reference is he talking about in the arena or riding in the open?

Old Ghost will actually take a little snooze if a rider is on his back and not providing direction just standing there. Lift the reins and his head comes up, the eyes fly open and he is immediately ready for your next request. I liken it to a computer going into standby mode.

Doing trails with Oliver, he does get into a rhythm of relaxation where I'm not telling him what to do because the status quo is fine. His head is low, his pace is even and we just go. Again if I lift the reins or lay a foot on then his mind is comes back on me. I don't expect him to constantly obsess about me out on a three or four hour ride, that would be neurotic behavior and take the fun out of it for both of us.

"I grew completely aghast to find out that with every step or two, Niji left me mentally..."

Though I don't understand how he could suddenly realize this, without it having been readily apparent before, a place where I could see it being an issue is in the arena. Depending upon the kind of riding he is doing, such as flat work or even pole bending a horse that is tuned out to the rider between poles or in the middle of a dressage pattern would be an issue as the cues come fairly rapidly in some cases.

Ollie gets like this sometimes in the arena, especially when a pretty mare walks by waving her tail in the air! In that case, yes I do try to get his interest back on me. On the other hand, we also keep arena work to a minimum; he and I prefer trails much more. :D
 
#14 ·
Nice post! Man, bsms, that TM quote in your post above seems like pure megalomania to me! Maybe RCD could write a little psychological profile based on such a statement for us, but it seems to me control is a huge issue for this person, and of course you can't work effectively and ethically with horses or with people when that's the kind of emotional baggage you're lugging...and I will observe again that those who carry on the most about "respect" (by which they mean having to have it) are the least likely, from my observations, to actually offer any, whether to humans or other fellow creatures like horses, or the earth in general. It seems to me that it always has to be about them, and that the horse doesn't really figure except as an object to act upon and a being to subjugate - as a possession to which to do as they please. And that, to me, seems not just psychologically, but also spiritually immature. And that just can't lead to anything profound either...
 
#15 ·
...and how lovely, by contrast, is Alicia Burton and how she works with her horses and thinks about them:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LxuqbZ0Q_9c

I especially like how she words her philosophy about horse training and working with "problem" horses around two minutes into this clip. I also think "you're amazing" is a far better attitude than "you owe me". ;-)

Like all the horsepeople I admire, she oozes warmth and calm, and is exactly the sort of person you just know horses are going to enjoy working with.

Also this lady:

http://augustusthemustang.wordpress.com/

You can just see it in the way she works with her horses. I'd want to work with her too! :)
 
#17 ·
"In the past, our issues manifested when we left the confines of the corral and got out onto the farm roads....usually the first trip went pretty well. Then...I'd notice Nija become less willing to go where I wanted. Finally, things deteriorated into a huge battle where he wanted to go one way and I another, and we spun circles where I tried desperately yet futilely to pressure and release him to my idea. Eventually it led to my dismounting and walking him back home for safety." - pg 98
There is a balance. Mia mostly got over her fears, but she would startle severely at times - usually when everything was calm and relaxed and she seemed utterly content. Then BOOM! - for 5 seconds, and then she'd look back to me as if to ask for an explanation of what just happened. My best guess is that she would mentally fall asleep strolling down a trail, then wake up and be startled to find herself somewhere she didn't recognize.

For a situation like that, mixing things up enough to prevent her from falling asleep while walking would probably have helped. At least, that was my plan to try about the time I had the chance to trade her for Bandit. I had worked for so long to calm her that I had, perhaps, gone too far!

But what Moates seems to be talking about is needing to have the horse mentally tied to you constantly. The idea is that you direct the horse's thought, and the thought needs to be with you for you to direct it. Then you 'send it left' and the horse turns left to follow 'his thought' that you just sent left. Frankly, it is all a bit weird to me.

My idea is that we keep doing what we were doing until I say it is time to do something different. During that down time, the horse is free to look around, smell, let me know the trail is too rocky and he/she needs to slow, etc. But unless I say otherwise, we'll keep doing pretty much what we were doing.

I think the problem was that horses like a confident rider. They do not like uncertainty. Most do not like making big decisions. They want a rider who is intent on going from A to B, and who will tell them at B that he wants to go right to C. They want a confident leader, and confident leaders don't say, "So...would you like to go right? Right feels good to me, how does it feel to you? I want you to be happy if we go right. Will right make you happy?"

Even when a horse is getting scared, they like someone to suggest options. They don't want to be beaten into submission, but a suggestion "Let's go right and move 50 feet away. That will give us a buffer zone and, when you are feeling safer, I'll show you why I'm not worried." If you leave the decision making totally up to the horse, with zero input from you...well, a horse on its own doesn't like making those decisions.

If you try to force a horse into a situation that scares him, you need to be able to totally dominate the horse. If you work with the horse, you can give him suggestions before the fear hits the "blind panic" spot, and teach him. But if you leave the decision making up to him, or push him until he is hitting the blind panic zone...then it gets ugly.

If you respond by then dismounting and leaving the area, the horse learns the way to avoid a scary thing is to get you to dismount. If you dismount before that stage, and put yourself between him and the scary thing, and show him it wasn't scary to begin with, then dismounting can work well.

But reading it, I don't think Nija was afraid. I think he just didn't feel like it. His rider wasn't the boss. His rider wasn't confident. And Nija didn't feel like it and so he rebelled. Cowboy will do that with a rider. If you want him to go right and he wants to go left, you'd better be ready to back up the cue to go right. If you don't, Cowboy will dominate YOU. But if you jump in his chili and insist, he quickly figures out you are serious about things and he might as well go along. And then he relaxes.

Apart from fear, Mia would do the same. She was willing about 98% of the time. But if she wasn't, you'd better to be ready to go toe to hoof with her and insist. If not...she'd take charge and ignore you.

I don't believe in starting a fight with a horse. But if the horse insists on one, the rider needs to engage. Trooper and Lilly both were/are horses who will work with a submissive rider. Mia and Cowboy were/are horses who are willing to dominate a submissive rider. Bandit is in between, as he is in so many other ways.

And all new riders, including me after 7 years, will judge their horse and thus their response incorrectly at times. But I don't try to ride by some sort of spiritual bonding with my horse. It is a two-way thing, not all horse or all rider, but a give and take that depends on the horse's personality and desires as well as the rider's.

And sometimes, the correct response to a horse is "I don't give a rat's rear end what you want!" If the horse is willing to work, work with him. If the horse wants to fight, then fight. But with most horses and in most cases, if you are clear and confident, they'll go along - without a fight and without needing to keep their focus on you every moment and every step.
 
#18 ·
I don't believe in starting a fight with a horse. But if the horse insists on one, the rider needs to engage. Trooper and Lilly both were/are horses who will work with a submissive rider. Mia and Cowboy were/are horses who are willing to dominate a submissive rider. Bandit is in between, as he is in so many other ways.

And all new riders, including me after 7 years, will judge their horse and thus their response incorrectly at times. But I don't try to ride by some sort of spiritual bonding with my horse. It is a two-way thing, not all horse or all rider, but a give and take that depends on the horse's personality and desires as well as the rider's.

And sometimes, the correct response to a horse is "I don't give a rat's rear end what you want!" If the horse is willing to work, work with him. If the horse wants to fight, then fight. But with most horses and in most cases, if you are clear and confident, they'll go along - without a fight and without needing to keep their focus on you every moment and every step.

I bolded the part that I both agree and disagree with as I think to some extent it comes down to knowing your horse.

I think I posted this before a while back but since Oliver generally doesn't give me much guff, I don't have too many recent stories to share and end up having to repeat some.

We were out riding with another horse-rider pair, we had gotten "lost" and finally found the trail again. I wasn't worried about being lost, but I know my human buddy had been. When we came back to the trail it was a right or left choice. My buddy went right, Oliver wanted to go left (it happened to be the shortest way back to familiar territory). A fight ensued and I reciprocated his stubbornness with my own considerable version. After a minute or so literally going in circles and sideways and everywhere but up thank-goodness, we had gotten nowhere and emotions on both our ends were running high. Rather than grabbing a switch off a branch and further escalating, I stopped fighting by simply asking him to stand. He stood and stopped fighting too. We sat for a few seconds, took some breaths and I asked again to head to the right. We went along without a problem.

In the end, what worked best for him was to settle both of us down and ask again. Otherwise it could have ended like this.

two men fighting both get knocked out - Bing Videos

Sometimes I think we are not all that different from our horses and our brains get stuck in a loop!
 
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#19 ·
I had a similar case with Mia once, when she wanted to trot quickly home. I couldn't hold her back, but I was trying and we both were getting ******. I got her stopped, both of us panting. Then I tried something besides direct confrontation - we 'compromised'. She could choose the speed and I would choose the direction. Want to trot fast? Great - turn away from home and let's go!

That's not what you wanted? OK, since you are walking, let's turn and walk home. It took her about 5 minutes to decide HOME is what she wanted, and we then walked all the way home. But by giving her some choice, she stopped fighting. And since I wasn't sure I could come out on top, avoiding a fight to the finish made sense.

BTW - just finished a ride on Bandit for the first time in 2 weeks. His leg owwwies seem to be healing. No limping. He rode today like he did 2 weeks ago. Spooked once at a mail truck. He did a 180, so I turned it into a 360. Since we ended up facing the truck, I suggested we move to one side to get more buffer room. He agreed. We then watched the mail truck. It started up and moved past us, never "charging" us.

I asked Bandit if he felt stupid. He obviously did not. But we once again worked together to get a mutually acceptable plan, and we both lived. Other than that, he behaved beautifully the whole 40 minutes. We'll go out longer next time.

Oh - and as I walked from our little arena to the corral area, he went to the gate & met me there, nickering. After getting him tacked up, I mounted and he walked out with quick strides, ears forward. I think it felt good to him, too. Sure did to me. He's not as sensible about things as Cowboy, but he's less likely to tell me something rude, too.
 
#20 ·
I will admit that I did read every word of every paragraph (my retention is not what it used to be after my accident!) but I feel the thing I am going to propose is relevant regardless.

In the same way that humans are complex creatures, and (psychological, in particular) studies (try as they may) often fall entirely short of evaluating the human condition, I think that blanket statements for horses fall short as well. What works for one horse, may not work for another and it's an owner's responsibility to try out new things and take opinions into consideration. I'm not sure coming to some divine truth about anything (except, perhaps, the statement 'get a trainer' xD As I have seen so many times in the training section of this forum) regarding horses will ever be found.

In this way, I applaud the way you explore different texts, bsms. I'm not sure how seamlessly textual information translates into practical knowledge in these cases, but it certainly isn't hurting anything!

Any updates from Mia's new owners?
 
#21 ·
I talked to him on the phone about a week ago. They have realized she sometimes startles pretty hard, but they all have been riding a long time and even the kids have butts like glue. So they stick on and keep going. I'm told she is mostly being ridden by kids since she is so "willing and responsive".

If she does OK having a foal this spring, then they will try to have her artificially inseminated by a good Arabian sport stallion next year. In the meantime, she'll mostly be ridden by fearless kids with sticky butts, so to speak! And in all honesty, I think that would be a great combo with Mia...something a 57 year old guy who started riding very late couldn't really provide.

I agree there is no one answer. Even the same horse might need a very different answer depending on who is riding her. I simply could not ride Mia the way a 10 year old kid who grew up on horses can.

Or another example: the saddle I had made for Mia has more 'rock' than Bandit's level back needs. It is an OK fit, but...today I tried putting the front half of my Wintec riser pad in the front. Bandit is SO narrow, and his back is so level. Well, one day's ride makes it too soon to declare total success. But I was VERY happy with the feel - the saddle felt more stable and less forward. Bandit acted comfortable. At the end, the sweat marks were very even all the way from the very front to the back.

A small change, but I felt more balanced and more confident riding. "More balanced and more confident" is HUGE to a horse. So that small change may make it easier for me to ride Bandit in a way that helps Bandit to relax and feel confident. So many variables in riding! That is why ultimately a rider needs to mount up and LEARN. Constantly learn, mostly from our horses. Not my beloved books, or the DVDs some like. Doing. Failing. Trying again. Seeing what works and doesn't work. Finding out a different horse behaves differently. Keep learning. It never ends. But who would want it to?
 
#23 ·
I had an interesting ride on Cowboy today. Started with him bucking and trying to throw me - not pain, since he settled down quickly enough and then rode well for 2 hours. It also included being shot at by some idiots shooting in the desert without any attention to safety. Heard more bullets go by today than I heard in 6 months in Afghanistan.

However, the wall of text that follows simply interested me from a historical viewpoint. It was written in 1868 - 147 years ago, which is well before natural horsemanship supposedly discovered horses and men could work together. I post some excerpts to show how a cavalry officer approached riding in the mid-1800s, underlining mine:
The French say, when speaking of a horse that shows restiveness, "il se defend" - he defends himself...There is much truth in this expression, and it is one that riders should constantly bear in mind, for insubordination is most commonly the result of something having been demanded from the horse that it either did not know how to do or was unable to perform...

...There is another thing to be considered with regard to the horse's character - it loves to exercise its powers, and it possesses a great spirit of emulation; it likes variety of scene and amusement ; and under a rider that understands how to indulge it in all this without overtaxing its powers, will work willingly to the last gasp,which is what entitles it to the name of a noble and generous animal...

..Horses don't like to be ennuye, and will rather stick at home than go out to be bored ; they like amusement, variety, and society : give them their share of these, but never in a pedantic way, and avoid getting into a groove of any kind, either as to time or place, especially with young animals. It is evident that all these things must be taken into account and receive due attention, whether it be our object to prevent or to get rid of some bad habit a horse may have acquired ; and a little reflection will generally suffice to point out the means of remedying something that, if left to itself, would grow into a confirmed habit, or if attacked with the energy of folly and violence, would suddenly culminate in the grand catastrophe of restiveness...

...Here, too, we find a practical hint for the treatment of full-grown horses that shy at particular objects and sounds, or object to passing certain spots. Treat them as the English trainer does his young ones, lead them about as described above, and reward them for their docility with a bit of bread, sugar, or something of the sort ; you will thus avoid all conflicts, the danger and evil consequences of which are enhanced a thousandfold if you attempt to mount your horse under such circumstances. Of course, when shyness arises from defective vision, which is often the case, this method will be of no avail.

----------------------------------------

Bolting. The first step to be taken is to ascertain why the horse bolts. A nervous and excitable temperament is sometimes the cause, and the only remedy will be quiet and judicious treatment...

...The first impulse of the great majority of riders whose horses bolt is, to put a sharper bit into their mouths, or at least to shorten the curb, and perhaps rig the horse out with some sort of martingal or running-reins that gives them a good hold of the head, to secure which more effectually they plant their feet firmly in the stirrups, probably at the same time throwing their own weight as far back as possible towards the horse's loins. Energy is an admirable thing, but the energy of stupidity seldom avails much ; and the above plan of proceeding is nearly sure to make matters worse, and convert a terrified animal into a vicious one. For whether the anguish the poor horse endeavours to escape from has its seat in the hind quarters or in the head and neck, severe bitting is sure to aggravate it, and a rude hard hand will do the same. The best, in fact the only, remedy for a bolter is, a very carefully fitted and well adjusted bit, a perfectly painless curb, a light hand, and last, but not least, a very firm steady seat, somewhat forward with horses that have weak hind quarters...

...Let us take the case of a horse running away in a field or open space, in the first instance, as being more easy to deal with. Here the principal object must be to take your horse off the straight line and on to a circle at first, of course, a wide one, but by degrees gradually narrowing. On a circle one has room enough even for the tiring process, seeing that it never ends, but the thing is to know how to get and keep the horse on to it. In the first place, then, it requires simply coolness and self-possession sufficient to enable the rider to sit well down in his saddle, bringing his legs well back and keeping his body upright the legs being required there to regulate the action of the horse's hind legs in the manner already described, whilst the upright position of the body affords a basis from which the arms can work. Next, instead of pulling a dead pull on both reins alike, the rider must take intermittent pulls on the one at the side he wishes to turn towards, gradually increasing the strength of the pull, and then as gradually relaxing to begin again...

...The circle affords, however, not merely an opportunity for avoiding dangerous obstacles ; its great value is, that it also enables the rider, by gradually obtaining command over his horse, to demonstrate to the latter the utter futility of its attempt to get rid of him by running away, and that, too, without violence or severity. One single attempt at bolting away, if taken advantage of in this manner by a judicious rider, may prove the means of effectually subduing a troublesome animal...

...Rearing would occur much less frequently if it were well understood that it is almost always the last stage of disobedience, and very seldom if ever the first. In fact, its occurrence is evidence of injudicious management of some kind, either from untrained horses being brought into positions for which they are as yet unfitted, or from something being demanded of them that was beyond their power ; or from the rider not knowing how to recognise and subdue the very first symptoms of disobedience; or, finally, from his using violent and intemperate methods of doing so.

On Seats and Saddles, by Francis Dwyer, Major of Hussars in the Imperial Austrian Service (1868)

https://ia802607.us.archive.org/25/items/onseatssaddlesbi00dwyerich/onseatssaddlesbi00dwyerich.pdf
I'll write more about the ride Cowboy & I had with a friend riding Trooper later.
 
#24 · (Edited)
Oh brutal bsms, nothing can destroy a ride more than gunfire, reason why I stick to the roads now, hunting season here. While I never had a problem, better to be safe than sorry and I can still hear shooting while riding on the road. As for your horse trying to unload you, well horses just be like that. Testing, always testing, apparently you passed the test, well done. I just acquired a new horse from my daughter, trained to the nine's, former provincial champion and some AQHA points to boot. ****** still tested me first day he officially became mine, tried bolting on me twice at lessons. He doesn't do that anymore, lol. Oh, and he ran away last week, in heavy, pouring rain. I chased him for a bit, got soaked, he ran into the bush, I went home and went to bed, good bye champion show horse, I don't chase nuttin' in the rain and into the bush. Woke up a few hours later, look outside, there's Otis waiting at the paddock gate ready to be let in. He's been the perfect horse since then, nickers at me whenever I go outside, I have a feeling your Cowboy might be the same....
 
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#25 ·
Well...we started with bucking. However, I just went to clean the corral in the evening twilight, and Cowboy strolled over and asked for attention. I've owned him for close to 3 years, and that is the first time he ever sought me out on his own in the corral. So...maybe I passed some sort of test. I gave him face and back rubs, then he strolled off to eat a bit of hay.

The guy who went riding with me has been around horses his entire life. He agreed with my interpretation - Cowboy wasn't hurt, just telling me to go to hell. I kept his head up and he couldn't buck hard. He then tried the "I won't move" thing. I guess I had a premonition, because I had a leather strap hanging from the saddle horn for the first time in ages. I smacked MY leg hard, and he'd jump forward for 3-4 strides, then try to buck, then I'd smack my leg, we'd move forward & he'd buck again. We went at it for 3-5 minutes - felt longer to me, but might have been more like 2 for all I know.

Then he saw the opening of the arena onto the road and trotted fast for it. I asked my friend - an A-10 pilot - if he was ready. He laughed, said yes, and we started our ride. And Cowboy worked hard and honest for the next 2 hours.

He was genuinely SCARED when we were being shot at. My friend told me after the ride that when he moved to one side, he could see the bullets whipping thru the vegetation to the side of Cowboy & I. So probably Cowboy sensed how close it was.

We were kind of at a loss about what to do. The shots were near us and coming straight down the trail we needed. But turning around would make a very long ride (my worry) and leave us within range of the shooters for the next mile or so (my friend's worry).

He was on steady Trooper, and decided to trot/canter forward. It was a very smart call. When being shot at randomly, the time in the field of fire is what increases your chance of being hit, so moving forward fast gave the best chance of not being hit.

That is what we figured out later. He told me he just got ****** off, so he urged Trooper forward. Cowboy didn't WANT to go forward, but when he saw Trooper going fast - well, to use the terminology of Moates, Cowboy's thoughts were about 150 yard in front of Trooper. He cantered and I worked the bit to try to get his thought closer to us. It must have worked. At one point Trooper went left around an obstacle, and I was able to direct Cowboy right in a shortcut.

When we spotted the shooters, my friend insisted on confronting them. We pointed out someone shooting needs to know WHERE THEY ARE SHOOTING. The guy on Trooper is about 6'3" and was armed, so he probably made the point more emphatically than I did! Still - I don't think it registered in the shooters' minds (if they had any) that they had done something wrong.

Still, it was kind of fun to see a good rider urge a horse to go fast on a twisting trail. And we both survived - as Churchill said, few things are as exhilarating as being shot at and missed. And Cowboy TRIED. He was certain something was very wrong, but he never totally lost his nerve or his mind!

As we left, Cowboy was nervous enough that he wanted to trot, so little 700 lb Cowboy trotted the next half mile with 200+ lbs of rider and tack on him, and after 90 minutes of hilly, rocky riding. It didn't seem to bother him physically in the least. That little tank seems entirely capable of carrying my weight...at around 30%.

And like I said, this evening was the first time in nearly 3 years that he has crossed the corral to ask for attention from me.

Trooper, riding off trail:



On a dirt road - 6'3" looks even bigger on Trooper's 14.3 hand, 850 lb body here...but Trooper also never faltered or hesitated today:



The closest thing I got to a picture of Cowboy today:



We may have had a rocky start, but Cowboy continues to impress me overall. He has spunk and sometimes some attitude. Unlike Mia, he will see what he can get away with. But he also has a lot of good sense, good balance, he's strong for his size and he has a lot to give a rider. And when he got SCARED, he wanted me to provide direction!

I missed riding Bandit - his front feet are still to tender for the trail we used today - but he might have had more problem with gunfire. Or not - I seem to recall his previous owner say he's been ridden while hunting coyotes that were harassing the sheep. So he might have been like Trooper - unhappy, but not too put out.

But Cowboy is proving to be a darn good horse in his own right. All 13 hands of him.:loveshower:
 
#26 ·
I wrote this on another thread, but then realized it is all about Bandit and what he & I need to do:

Mia, Trooper and Cowboy have all gone barefoot. They have no problems walking on desert trails, and trotting in some places. They could not handle cantering on all the trails, nor could they handle going 10+ miles a day.

Bandit is still transitioning. His rear shoes were pulled in May - no problem at all. The fronts were pulled on 6 June.

The good news? His feet now measure 5.0 inches across instead of 4.5 inches. That means roughly 20% more area to contact the ground. The toe is growing at a steeper angle, so I assume he was shod in a way that pulled the toe out.

He tends to stretch out his stride and slap his feet down at both a walk and at a canter. I think that is because of how he was shod and ridden. He thinks that is "normal". At a walk, he is almost able to handle the trails here barefoot. He CAN handle them when I walk beside him. That reduces the total impact since I weight 20% of his weight (the saddle is close to 5%). It also forces him to slow down.

At a walk, he is starting to use his feet like a normal horse. I'm hoping he doesn't have internal damage due to how he has moved for the last few years (he is 7). I'm starting to ride him on trails and using the "Owwwyyy" factor to get him to slow down, watch his footing, and bring his stride back in. One of the ways a horse adapts to a heavier rider is to take shorter steps and leave each foot on the ground a little longer - about 10% IIRC, which is not something we would notice without a video and timer. I think that is also part of adapting to being barefoot - learning to move in a more natural way.

I think Bandit is STARTING to use his heel more and slap his toe down less. He doesn't do it at a trot, BTW. But walking around on the hard ground of his corral isn't enough. And while I'm tempted by boots, I think what he really needs is to learn to walk and canter without shoes and without being long in the toe. I'm afraid booting him would allow his bad habits to continue.

So I ride him on pavement. I'm working him more in our little arena - it isn't just his feet, it is how he uses his entire body. He prefers to brace his back, go in straight lines, use long strides and slap his feet down. So I've set up cones, and we're doing turns around cones, changes in directions and starting to use more transitions in gaits. I spend most of my arena time in two point, which is pretty odd for a western rider!

We're making some progress. The groove next to the frog was less than 1/4" deep when the shoes were pulled. Maybe closer to 1/8" - almost none. It is about 1/2" now. His feet have gotten wider and rounder. He braces his back less. He is losing muscle, I think - from the bottom of his neck! Yes! He is using his head more for balance. Yesterday, he even curled his neck looking back at me. We stopped after 25 minutes yesterday. In part because of the wind getting bad, but mainly because he gave me a couple laps of the best western jog he's ever done - loose, decent balance and calm. I even settled some of my weight in the saddle and he didn't tense up. So I decided to end while things were going good!

I'm not convinced horses are all that stoic. I think many of them have been cowed into silence. Ridden by someone who will listen, a horse ought to tell you if it is getting painful. But the rider needs to understand he is conditioning his horse, which means taking baby steps until the horse's capacity increases.

I haven't owned many horses, but I suspect Bandit may be typical of a lot of transitioning horses. It isn't just pulling shoes, and it isn't just walking on rough ground. He needs to learn a new way of moving. He also needs a thicker sole. And I need to build him up - not just his feet, but his back, his strides, his balance, his head position, his neck, his confidence, his calmness, his willingness to "talk to his rider", etc. He's been in shoes for years. He's improved over the last 4 months, but it may take another 4-8 months. I need patience...which is hard for me.

This was the first week of July. There is just so much wrong in this picture! A horse who moves like this on a rocky trail will have problems - ones that go beyond the feet alone. The feet are a symptom as much as a cause.


Bandit has a good attitude. We have a long way to go, but he seems likely to turn into a good little horse (around 800 lbs). It is finally cooling off, which will make riding easier, but we've also had a ton of rain (sorry, California). I hadn't thought much about it, but we probably need to do more arena work in order to set him up for success on a trail.
 
#27 ·
Bandit is making some progress. His feet are getting thick enough and broad enough that he can start going on trails again. He's moving a little better. He is teaching me to be a better rider. Mia taught me a lot, but I became very defensive in riding her...and that defensiveness hurt my riding. It was almost certainly counter-productive as well. I think I'm gaining better balance and getting better at moving in synch with my horse on Bandit.

He got nervous today when on a street that passed by a guy loading tree branches into the back of his truck. In his defense, it DID look like some bushes had grown legs and were walking toward the road. There was a time, though, that I might have needed to back off and dismount. But he is slowly becoming more confident, and he seemed more worried than afraid. So I pressed him to go forward, and he did. By the far side of the road, but it was forward!

The main goal for today was to get him on some trails and see how he handled them with my weight on his back. His hooves are growing, and the grooves of the frog are now about 1/2-5/8 inch deep, versus about 1/8" deep in June. And happily, he mostly walked the same as he did before getting his front shoes off. Not quite the same. Better. In the rockier patches, he slowed down and watched where his feet went. He moved to stay on the smoothest sections of the trail. And I think he is doing more of a heel first landing than toe first in shoes.

He likes the trails better than the streets. He likes pavement, but he doesn't like the houses and all the people stuff involved in walking thru a neighborhood. We did do a lot of trotting on the paved roads...he still tends to brace his back and trot very fast. It was a struggle, and not an entirely successful one, to slow him to a jog.

We did have a surprise today. While going through the wash (dry creek beds, usually sandy in southern Arizona), Trooper stopped and laid down on his belly. My youngest got off quick, then screamed bloody murder and he got back on his feet. He didn't try to roll, but Trooper is our "Steady Eddie" - The Horse Who Does No Wrong! But lying down with a rider on your back counts as WRONG!

With him back on his feet, my daughter chose to lead him until we were out of the wash. He didn't try to lie down again. Bandit just looked at him with a sneer on his face. Well, I think it was a sneer. We climbed out of the wash about 100 yards down, and she remounted on solid ground. Trooper has been having problems with flies on his belly. I've been trying to keep enough fly spray on his belly to give him some relief, but my wife suggested that might have been the problem. I don't know. But it shows even the steadiest horse can have his moments.

Bandit had one too. After 75 minutes of riding, and a few hundred yards from our house, my daughter trotted Trooper. That is OK. Bandit doesn't need to go faster just because the other horse is. That was MY thought. Bandit didn't share it. He tried to speed up. I blocked with the reins & bit. A second time & a second block. Bandit pinned his ears and dropped his head to start bucking. I once again did my Arizona Ranger imitation on him: "Reach for the sky, Bandit!" Before he could get his head down and get a good buck in, I was giving him a choice: Raise your head, or I'll tear it in two. He raised it.

I was ******. Bucking? I rode Mia for 7 years and she never bucked once. Bucking? I don't think so! With his head at stargazer levels, I pulled his head around and yes: I jerked hard on the reins several times. I think it qualified as "punish the mouth". Not nice on my part, but bucking is not nice on his part.

Bandit and Cowboy are both very different in personality from Mia. Mia was afraid, or willing, but rarely rebellious and NEVER mean. But if Bandit or Cowboy gets upset, they are not above trying to throw a hissy fit that includes bucking. Bandit pulled it the first time a couple of days ago. He tried again, very briefly today, on pavement. Had his head stayed down, he might have been able to make a mess of things. I'm hoping I convinced him this is NOT a productive tactic.

I'm not big on dominating a horse. But I'm also not big on being dominated by the horse. Mia wasn't like that. She had plenty of attitude, but no thought of hurting a human. It makes me wonder if Bandit and I will ever click.

I've told people to ride the training, not the bond. I mean it. And I am certain Bandit is a safer horse to ride than Mia. He spooks at times, but he calms quick. He doesn't lose his mind. He's gaining confidence, and we are starting to work well together. He is beginning to trust my judgment about going ahead when nervous. But he doesn't have that "ooohhhhhh, what are we going to do together today" feel that Mia had. I'm riding a horse. He is starting to be a good horse to ride. But I'm not out with a friend. It is kind of like when I ride Trooper: I'm riding a horse. Just a horse. Not my friend.

My extremely tentative plan right now is to ride him thru the spring, then sell him as a good riding trail horse and look for another Arabian mare. He's been very good for me, but he might make a better horse for someone else someday. I think he'll turn into a good horse for a relaxing trail ride, who is pretty much the same horse every day. Skip a week of riding, get on and he'll be pretty much the same as if you rode him a few hours ago.

And that is a great horse for many people. I'm just not sure it is really what I want. I adored both of the purebred Arabian mares I've owned, so there may be another in my future. But not until I get better at riding and training a horse. Bandit may be a great horse for me to work on. I've gained a lot of confidence. I'm actually a better balanced rider now. I can feel the improvement. If he teaches me how to put a good base on a horse - nothing fancy, just a horse who will go forward with confidence, can jog side by side with another horse and who will stretch out and walk fast and easy down a desert trail - then he'll have taught me some valuable lessons.

But 6-9 months from now, if we are just working together and not having fun together, I might put him up for sale.
 
#28 ·
I know you didn't ask for advice, so feel free to skip this, but I just saw a few points where I could offer some insight you might find useful :)

re Trooper laying down -- sometimes they just forget for a moment that someone is up there :) He probably just hit the nice soft sand and was like 'hmmm this is a fabulous place to roll, OH whoops forgot you were up there!' Not that it makes it okay for him to do that, but don't hold it against him :) It's a pretty distinct feeling when their knees start to buckle and they're about to go down. Advise your daughter to remember that feeling and especially be prepared that it could happen again in soft sand or dirt, or water. If she feels it happening in the future, kicking the horse forward (or slapping their rump with the end of a rein, if she can), will get them moving so they don't lay down.

re Bandit bucking -- since you describe him as a pretty level headed dude, I suspect that he has had success in the past getting someone off by bucking, and he still sees it as a viable option to get away from pressure and in this case, back to his buddy. I don't really think he has bad intentions, just that is a learned behavior from his past. You are skilled enough to get rid of this behavior. Just make sure that when he goes to bucking you put a lot of pressure on him, however you can, and release when he quits. If you are able to successfully win a number of those battles (number depending on how many times he was able to successfully win in the past), you'll likely feel him get to the point where he thinks about bucking, but then remembers that it hasn't worked for him recently and chooses not to. Reward the heck out of that thought process, maybe even dismount and loosen the cinch, to really drive home the point.

For the bracing and trotting fast, I would use what is called hinging. Work on it at a walk, before using it for speed control at a trot. The goal is to have the horse travelling straight in the body, with his head and neck soft and bent to one side or the other. It helps with speed control, because they can't trot as fast like that and it's also more work for them to move in that way, than to move straight ahead. With you using either one rein or the other, to hinge their head and neck to the side, they can't lock up their spine and brace against you like they can if you pick up both hands at the same time. To do it, you just reach one hand down the rein and slowly pick up and ask the face to the side, to somewhere between 45 degrees and 90. If you're in a curb, it's more of a straight back and up motion, if in a snaffle, it's a wide opening hand. Use your legs to keep his body straight if he tries to follow his nose, while maintaining feel in your hand (give and take as he gives and tries to take his face). In the beginning just look for one step, then as that becomes easier, ask for two and build from there. You're looking for him to be soft in the face and neck, and follow your hand around in such a way that he maintains slack in the rein, and keep his body straight on his own without you needing to use leg. This drill is used for a lot of things, but I really like it for slowing them down in the trot (and it will also help him relax and soften all the way through his spine). Once you've trained him to do it, when you feel him start to speed up, you can hinge him until you feel his feet slow and him relax, then release him back to straight and repeat as needed. If you are deliberate about it and don't let your hand get too fast, he'll start to anticipate that when he gets quick and you pick a rein up he is going to have to slow his feet and relax his body in order to hinge to the side, so he will go ahead and do that without you actually having to hinge him. You do that enough and he'll get to where you can just pick up one rein ever so slightly and he'll relax into a slower pace, and then to where he mostly just maintains that slow relaxed pace.
It's not a quick process, but I have found that it's the best way to put speed control on them without having to get into a pulling match or teaching them to brace against your hands, as can often happen if you're applying pressure to both reins at the same time, with their neck straight.

Note: don't try to prevent him from speeding up. Don't protect him from his mistake so much that he never has a chance to learn. Let him get quick, then correct him and leave it alone until he speeds up again.
 
#31 ·
I know you didn't ask for advice, so feel free to skip this...
I wouldn't think of skipping it! I'm a backyard rider of backyard horses, but I'm a well read backyard rider of backyard horses. Until a week ago, I had never had a full sized horse try to buck on me. When it happened, I reacted mostly from "instinct" - and instinct created by having read advice many times. I don't always choose to follow advice on a given horse, but a person's bag of tricks can never be too full.

I agree about Trooper. He's had a problem lately of flies on his belly, and he probably just thought all that sand was too good an opportunity to pass up. My youngest does 99% of her riding on Trooper (says she has no desire to ride another horse, although I have talked her into riding Cowboy and Bandit before). She also tends to daydream while riding...and Trooper is content with that. It was a struggle to get her to actually hold the reins while on a trail, and she still considers stirrups to be for mounting a horse. They are, in her opinion, strictly ornamental after that...:icon_rolleyes:

I agree about Bandit's bucking. I seriously doubt he ever got away with it. His previous owner probably weighs 220 in his socks, and Bandit is about 800 lbs. Bandit's bucks with me are not the serious "I'm going to get you off my back somehow" type of bucks I've read about. They are more like the "hopping mad" I've seen with horses even in the corral - the sort of "I'm ****** but I don't know what to do about it" kind of hopping.

When Mia felt that way, she'd trot with a stiff-legged, jarring trot. I'd respond by just bouncing on her back until she decided to relax.

If Bandit feels cornered by the other horses in the corral, he'll rear. If I let him out of the corral, into the more open area of our back yard, he bucks for the fun of it. Both of the times he had 'bucked' - both in the last 3 days - have been little stiff hops that I think are 99% releasing frustration. However, he can find a better way of releasing frustration!

In one of my books, a lady writes about being thrown from their "beginner's horse" - the steady horse used for their newest riders. She thought about it afterward, and realized the beginners never asked the horse to do anything hard. The horse had been trained to a high level, but the beginners didn't ask him to work like that. They were riding him because he didn't mind carrying them, but he resented her pushing him to do more.

That may be what is happening with Bandit. He was genuinely scared about some human things - baby carriages, weed wackers, etc - at the beginning. I understand fear and respect it. But he isn't afraid now. He doesn't enjoy those things, but he isn't afraid. So I push him to keep going. And he does. But I think he kind of resents it and bottles it up inside. Then, when he REALLY wants to do something and I say no, it comes out.

It isn't a response to pain, a bad saddle or anything like that, so it remains unacceptable behavior. But after thinking about it (and your post), I'll probably just pull his head up immediately (so his little bucks can't get bigger) and then ignore it. Go back to Tom Roberts rule of "This profits you not" instead of punish. The same lady I mentioned also wrote a common reason a horse bucks is if it feels it is being unfairly punished. She said punishing little bucks can make it worse, while ignoring them tends to make them non-productive: "remembers that it hasn't worked for him recently and chooses not to". The more I'm around horses, the less I want to punish. The US Cavalry manual said few people, even experienced riders, knew how to punish a horse effectively, and that no punishment is better than bad punishment.

So looking back, I think I overreacted yesterday. I should have just got his head up, asked him what he thought he was doing, and then gone about our business.

I won't try hinging. I'm not saying it is wrong, but a man has to know his limitations...and I'm pretty sure I would do it wrong. My horses are very good at following their noses, and that is very helpful to me. Even Mia on her bad days would do a fast 180 on a narrow trail if I pulled her nose around. That fact saved us from backing off a ledge more than once.

I have been on a bolting horse who didn't follow his nose. It happened visiting a ranch about 35 years ago. The horse bolted, I got his nose turned all the way to my knee, and he didn't slow at all. So I ended up kicking his shoulder to turn him, which taught me that a horse may not follow his nose, but he must follow his shoulder!

I'll keep hinging in mind, and may try it a few years down the road. I find there are a lot of things good riders do that I just cannot do - yet. My riding position is improving on Bandit, but in fairness to me...I couldn't have done it on as spooky a horse as Mia. And even after she lost most of her spookiness, the fear of it remained in my mind and limited me from trying things. My position today is probably more secure than it was last spring, but I simply was afraid to experiment too much on Mia. She was a wonderful horse and I miss her. But by the time I traded her, I was the limiting factor holding her back, rather than her hindering me. She was ready to go on and learn more, but my fear preventing me from moving ahead and doing more on her.

For that, I have to thank Bandit and respect him. We may or may not "bond" over the next 6-9 months, but he is certainly a good horse and a good horse for me now. If I sell him someday, I think I'll still be grateful to him.

Late for a meeting...gotta go. Hope there are no spelling errors in this post!
 
#30 ·
If you do it before they have a solid understanding of following their nose, then yes it will. Or if it's all you ever do, then yes.
If the horse will follow their nose with their body, then it's just the next step toward getting them more broke in the face and neck. It's being able to 'disconnect' the head from the rest of the body. It's something you NEED to have on a lot of performance horses. Like if I'm working a cow, I need the horse to be able to give his head in the direction of the cow while keeping his shoulders stood up and continuing to travel straight.

To make sure I don't lose what I've already taught them about following their nose, I will use hinging in combination with other manuevers. I will ask for the head, while keeping them moving straight, then when that feels good, I will use my legs to tell the body to follow the head around in a circle, not moving my hands much, then put the body back on the straight line, then use my legs to ask the horse to circle the other way in a counter-bent circle, and back on the straight line, all while keeping their head to the side where I've asked it. The first step in training is always to get them following their nose with their body, but the next step in getting them more broke is getting them to where they can give their head without moving anything else.

Remember, the reins should only control the direction of the face. The reins do not control the feet. You should never try to pull a horses feet with your hands. That's what your legs are for ;) If you feel a shoulder popping out somewhere or not following the head when you ask for it, you correct it by either slapping that shoulder with your foot or with the end of a rein, to get them to put it back in place.
 
#32 ·
I agree that it's better not to make a big deal out of the bucking, if he's not really trying to get you off.
I never think about punishing a horse, that would imply that the horse had bad intentions thought out. I just don't believe horses think like that. I think all 'bad' behavior is just an attempt to find release, whether they're trying it for the first time or it's been successful in the past.
It very well may be that Bandit never got anyone off, and I believe that assessment is correct on your part, as horses that have successfully gotten people off tend to buck with more confidence than you're describing and don't tend to think about stopping until the person is clear from their back or the rider has put a TON of pressure on them to get them stopped. BUT, even though he didn't throw someone, it still may have worked for him, in that the person riding quite asking him to do what they were asking when he through the fit, and then possibly avoided asking things of him in the future, that they were afraid would make him want to buck. Like in the example you gave, if you had gotten scared when he started bucking and then just let him go catch up to Trooper. That would've been enough to reinforce that behavior.
So, I believe you're on the right path of thinking with this issue. Just make sure that bucking is never a way out of what you're doing, be keeping him on task and not releasing pressure until he quits, and that you reward him when you can feel him think about it, but choose not to and I think you'll get it gone in no time.

Give yourself a little more credit :) I think you're capable of more than you think!
 
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