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Belle and Snickers, the EPSM mare divas

12K views 173 replies 5 participants last post by  Oldhorselady 
#1 ·
So, I decided to start this thread for the beginning of this journey with my two EPSM mares.

My first mare is Belle, my EPSM Type I pos percheron. She was severely neglected and possibly abused for a long time before I adopted her. I adopted her at the age of appox 16 year old. She had not had human interaction, hoof care, vet care or turn out from her 50 foot paddock, that she shared with her 3 year old filly, who was larger than her, for at least three years. Simply watered and hay thrown.

My second mare, you may know from previous threads. Her last journal was:

http://www.horseforum.com/member-journals/snickers-noodle-legged-pinto-180945/

Snickers I adopted at the age of 2. I was concerned with the way her hind end moved, but she was a young, growing, butt-high 2 year old draft cross, so I went with it. As time went on, it was the mystery hind end saga with vets, chiros, massage therapists, farriers and trainers. Started to look at EPSM and was in contact with Dr. Beth Valentine with tons of video and she agreed. Tested for Type I, which was neg, but not ruling out Type II. Started high fat diet and she improved. However, with her being an extremely easy keeper and not losing any weight despite following the diet correctly and daily exercise, I began to get concerned for her future becoming IR or worse. The diet DID help her, although, not completely. I was happy with how she DID improve and if she wasn't such an easy keeper and overweight, I probably would have left it that way. But with there being an exact opposite alternative with the fat with Dr. Kellon, I decided to try her way and see what it gets me. How will I know if she wouldn't improve more or lose weight this way, if I didn't try.

So, this is where I am with both girls. I am treating for EPSM with easy keepers.

I have found someone to help me with hay analysis and getting the vit/min correctly established, along with doing it with simple ingredients not using commercial grains/feeds. All being done with low Non-structural Carbohydrates (NSC) = low sugar, low starch and with low fat.

I am also interested in starting to trim my mares with the Pete Ramey method and for them to be barefoot. I am not posting this for criticism. Snickers is barefoot and has very nice feet. Belle has been a rehab project, possible founder, possible laminitis, slipper toed with a crack to her coronary band and abscessed for two months after her first trim. I have had farrier troubles. Belle has now been shod in front for a year. This has kept her comfortable enough to walk off of her extremely thin soles. However, I'm not certain the angles are still where I want to be to make her more sound and walk heel first. I'm concerned with her heel bulbs now starting to pinch, frog getting narrow and longer, sole stretching etc. So, I will be pulling the shoes.

I am creating this journal to not only help ME remember my journey, but to help anyone else out there in the future that may need help. I am being your guinea pig so to speak.
 
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#62 ·
Have you run your observations by the group?
One general thing I noticed is vast differences in alfalfa. I currently have obviously first cutting, stemmy, a bit more brown than green, but they eat it better. the previous was very green, shorter stems, but they left a lot. So they seem to like the brown stuff better, which should also be lower in nutrients. Do you supplement magnesium too?
 
#63 ·
I haven't mentioned it on the group just yet. I'm going to give it a little more time after the small changes in diet.

They are getting magnesium too. They have been getting a full dose now of their supplement that Maren had made after the hay was tested. They get 3 grams in the supplement.

I would have thought if her neck was more cresty, that I would see it in her other fat areas too???
 
#64 ·
Could be that she's done growing and now puts on what makes her an adult draft cross. Dunno, seriously. Do you have anybody that could have a look, who hasn't seen her since you started the new diet? To counteract the crest, you might want to up the Mg. It's pretty safe, up to 10g ids recommended, and you can easily see if her storage is full( rather loose stools). Might be worth a try. The cold.... it is cold at night for our area, could have an effect on her muscles. As I said, I'd ask the group.
 
#65 ·
Yes, I can up the Mag again. I think they were pretty close to the 10g before, but once they started on the full dose of the Uckele, I wanted to start from the minimum again and go from there with anything. Guess this would be a good time. :) Never any loose stools with them. I'll start tomorrow. What does the Mag do again?

Haven't had anyone to look at her, unless I call another vet who has never seen her. So annoying and frustrating, because when I talk EPSM with even the vets so far, I get the deer in the headlights look. I'll add the Mag starting tomorrow.
 
#66 ·
More Mg is needed with the alfalfa since its high in Ca. Mg does all kinds of neat things, nerves, muscles, helps getting rid of the crest, and a bunch of other stuff. It's pretty safe to give, unlike other minerals, and it's chronically low in our soils.
Did Maren take the alfalfa into consideration or did she only balance the grass hay?
 
#67 ·
Yes, she tests both once a year. The vit/min supplement is created based on 1/3 alfalfa and 2/3 grass per feeding diet.

I started with only giving 1 flake now of the alfalfa instead of the two when I get there. The barn only feeds the grass in the nets. I also increased Mag yesterday to 8000mg for Snickers. Gotta go from here. Maybe I'm just imagining it. I'm going to take a picture and compare to past ones.
 
#68 ·
Good idea with the one flake only. It does make a difference calorie wise. You can always throw a little more to Belle while you work with Snickers. Are you adding E/Se too?
I'm thoroughly pleased with that diet for mine :). The blimp has lost the upholstery( well, almost lol), the other two are in perfect weight, and all three still have plenty of energy. I hope it'll work out for you, too.
 
#69 ·
Yeah Desert....I still supplement the Vit E at 5000iu. The selenium is in the vit/min supplement.

I posted on the EPSM group about the possible crest and my feeling that Snicker's movement is not as good as when she was on high fat. Still didn't take a comparison picture and trying not to jump to conclusions to quickly.
 
#70 ·
So Snickers is really at where we started before we started her on the high fat diet last spring. However, I don't want to make any drastic change back to adding the fat just yet. There are other factors involved, like the days being shorter and the holidays where she has been worked less. The temperatures are also much cooler at night, which I've heard many EPSM horse owners say their horses get very stiff with the colder temps.

Today I rode Snickers in the arena to practice with the flag. She has been off consistently with the tightness in the hind end for sure. I cantered her and she went down. We are both just fine. I just feel guilty. So, I put away the flag and decided to just take her for a trail ride at the walk. It's frustrating, because I know I need to exercise her, but she is so limited. I rode her on a short trail ride and then rode with some of the other girls, just doing serpentines at the trot. Following the other horses really kept her going well and that was the first time she ever held the trot so long. I'm very proud of her. One of the girls said her horse's locking stifle has also been acting up and her horse is more stiff recently. I'm going to get more consistent with Snickers again and keep her trotting. I think canter is too hard for her right now.

I also have come to the decision that I'm going to have the muscle biopsy done. Don't ask me why....if it's neg? Then what? If it's pos? Then what? I guess I just want to know. Plus MSU tests for a handful of other muscular things with the specimen. I will probably due this in January. I have to find a vet that is familiar with what to do to be sure they take the correct specimen and handle it correctly when sending it to MSU. They give instructions on the website, but I still need some type of confidence knowing that the vet is at least familiar with it all.

Belle had torn the gaiter off her boot, so I contacted Easyboot for a replacement, but they are closed until Jan 6. So still waiting.

Both horses' feet are doing pretty darn well though. That's good news anyway. Belle had been a little more sore since we had rain and her feet were softer. But still she is doing very well.
 
#71 ·
Good to hear the feet are doing well, at least.
Have you got any feedback from the group? It's bad timing with the holidays, I bet. I would probably read and read and read until I find cases similar to Snickers' on it, thinking that somebody on there must have had delay in improvement also lol
 
#72 ·
No, can't say that the group has given me much information. Really disappointed. Dr. Valentine always got back to me very quickly. I did email Dr. Valberg this morning to ask if she possibly had a list of vets familiar with EPSM in my are to do the biopsy. The vet I was using didn't seem very familiar with it at all. I emailed another vet, recommended to me, to see if she was familiar with it and I still haven't heard anything. So frustrating.

Yes, feet in Belle and Snickers are doing awesome!!! Belle was a little sore when they were wet for a few days, but I walked her on gravel yesterday and she seemed fine. Both are beginning to take shape very nicely. I will try and get pictures soon. Snickers has solid feet, but they still needed some tweaking.

With Belle's boots, I tried them back on yesterday because the Easyboot Epic is just the Epic with the gaiter attached. So, you can use them without the gaiter anyway. I found that the wires are stretched out. So, that one time of her running around stretched them. There isn't another setting to make them tighter, so I am going to try and alter them today, making the wire a little shorter. You can buy the wire and copper fittings at Lowes I found. I'll go from there.

Someone posted this on one of the EPSM forums...what do you think? https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?...98826824356.1073741828.632186293492276&type=1

or if you can't see this because it is on FB....here is the link.....http://emergesupplements.com/our-products/
 
#73 ·
Another observation I've made with Belle....

She has always had weepy, watery eyes. I thought maybe she had blocked tear ducts. Well, as of late, they are not running anymore. Could possibly be contributed to her vit/min being balanced now, especially with all the extra Mag added?
 
#74 ·
Now here is what I think, my very own, personal opinion.
Seeing what is happening right now, I would think really hard. My first idea would be going back to the Valentine diet, with some modifications, to keep a healthy weight despite feeding high fat. I might consider waiting till it warms up to see if winter had something to do with it, no improvement= going back to the other diet. With concerns about getting fat, I'd ditch the alfalfa before I'd ditch fat, and I'd up the exercise.
That supplement.... again, my own opinion..... If you feel like spending on what you can add with what you're already feeding(vit E and flax), go ahead... lol. I couldn't find any ingredient list of how much is in it of each on that site.... bad.

So, again, my point of view here. The article about PSSM on that site was good, and could actually give some ideas to what to do.
I'd sit down and think. Hard. Previous diet she did well on. But new worries popped up, need to be addressed. How can I do that without making her bad again. That's where logic comes into play;-)
 
#76 ·
I have found that any horse or pony we had that had some form of metabolic/diet related laminitis/thyroid/cushings issues also suffered with runny eyes and often a runny nose when the problems were 'active'
I'm inclined to think that its related to a poor immune system as they can't utilize glucose correctly
I've been adding Vitamin C to my two that have problems and it seems to help - horses make vitamin C from glucose and if they can't produce glucose correctly then chances are they will be deficient
Horses and vitamins
 
#77 ·
Belle has always been a very oozy, drippy horse....lol. Besides her eyes always watering, when worked her nose drips quite a bit and she drools...lol. It was only now that I've noticed her eyes have not been draining like they used to and I thought I had read somewhere about a Mag deficiency can cause that..idk. Time will tell now that the girls have been on the custom Uckele vit/min balancing their hay. There is only 3000mg of Mag Ox in it and I've added 10,000mg due to the special circumstances....the custom Uckele supplement is balanced to the hay for a 'normal' horse.

This is why I am thinking that having the muscle biopsy done next month is a good thing.....that way I can confirm or deny the EPSM diagnosis and then go from their with diet modifications. Because some things ie: adding chromium to an IR diet is not good for an EPSM horse. I won't solve my problems, but I won't have to be scared of changing her diet in a way that may not benefit an actual EPSM horse.

Desert...I don't want to jump around from thing to thing. As tempting as it is, I would looooove to just jump back to the high fat diet. But I really want to rule out the weather change and less exercise at the moment out. But, I think my first step is doing this biopsy.

Jaydee...funny, because I'm always talking about Snickers and her problems with 'un-diagnosed' EPSM....when Belle is EPSM pos without the physical symptoms...I often overlook some of her issues being related to the EPSM.
 
#78 ·
I read that runny eyes thing also, but can't remember what it is that's missing. Cushings horses often have it, tho.

For waiting for warmer weather... that probably would be my choice, before changing anything. Another thing to keep in mind... high fat is bad for confirmed IR/ Cushings horses. So as long as that's not the case, it should be okay feeding the fat. Watching the weight, of course.
 
#79 ·
Well, I just received an email back from Dr. Valberg! She gave me the name of a vet that she knew quite a while back that she taught and even asked me to say hi to him...lol.

See, Dr. Valentine and Dr. Valberg make me happy! I know they are all extremely busy and there are millions more like me, but that makes me feel like someone actually cares in a time where I'm ready to pull my hair out. Hopefully I will find this vet now.
 
#80 ·
Today was a great day!

Rode Belle in her boots for the first time. She was awesome, as always.

Lunged Snickers with a ground pole to get her to pick up her hinds. At first, this was veeeeeery scary. But only after a few times of her tumbling over the pole, she actually did a great job picking them up. I couldn't believe it. So, this will be a good exercise for her. Afterwards, she had her second ground driving lesson. Even went out of the arena, all over the ranch and she was a natural. She never ceases to amaze me...she is one fantastic girl.

The only problem was that I forgot to use my new Gopro camera that my husband bought me for Christmas!!! No more holding my phone in one hand for video!!!!!
 
#81 ·
#82 · (Edited)
back to square one....
honestly... if she was mine, I'd be back on the high fat diet, would try to keep it as close as possible to the lowest must have% and keep sugars/ starches low also. like the best of both worlds thing.... hoping it would be possible. Oh, and shed be on diet... gained lots of weight, it seems. could be winter woolies, tho.
 
#83 ·
I'm going to take a short video of her tomorrow in the round pen with my phone and see if maybe the Gopro makes her look different. I can see what you are saying when I compare these videos to the old ones. In person, it doesn't seem as dramatic, except her crest, which I still am not sure. Yes, winter woolies too.

I'm going to have the biopsy done in the next few weeks. I have to request the day off and arrange transportation to a vet that can do the biopsy. Haven't figured out which of two vets yet, since their offices were closed today.

The girls get less alfalfa now then they used to and their grass hay is the same and only goes into the Freedom Feeders. The only thing they get with their vit min is 1 lb pure alfalfa pellets and 1 lb plain beet pulp. They are not getting any pasture grass. If I need to add fat again, not sure if I should try the oil again or adding the Purina Amplify???? I'm trying not to panic, again.
 
#85 ·
I am going to weigh the beet pulp and pellets today to get an accurate measurement. I had been just using a l lb scoop from a feed, so the #'s will be different. I didn't think it would be a big deal, but now I want to be more accurate. The mix I have with the beet pulp and pellets is the smallest ratio to get them to eat their slop. The vit/min are balanced for a diet of 2/3 bermuda and 1/3 alfalfa. The alfalfa is supposed to be needed for EPSM horses to begin with.

I also posted on the Yahoo forum and waiting from a reply from Dr. Kellon maybe.
 
#86 ·
She is around, she was on the IR group as recent as yesterday.
One thing you can do is spacing the hay nets more over the entire area they have to encourage movement. I know it's more convenient to have it all on one spot, but the small portions spread out really gets them going all day. I have proof, mine are directly at the house,I have several nets hanging, and a little here and there on the ground and they move around constantly. Low impact exercise lol
 
#87 ·
Dr. Kellon response....

Cold weather and seasonal rise in ACTH can also worsen insulin resistance/metabolic syndrome. Next time your vet is out it would also be a good idea to check blood glucose and insulin levels, do nerve blocks to the front feet. Low grade chronic laminitis could easily explain what you are seeing too and her weight plus crest changes raise the index of suspicion. This can be VERY difficult to see because both front feet are involved (and possibly hinds as well) so they move fairly evenly. Signs include slow movement,reluctance to move, rigid head carriage, reluctance to turn, nonspecific pain indicators like ear pinning, sensitivity to touch.

Eleanor

She has always moved like this, even when she was a thinner two year old.
 
#88 ·
I would go back to the high fat diet as it seemed to work for her
I looked at the first video and it really does look like Flo when she's having a bad day with her stifle arthritis
I've also seen horses with laminitis move like that when they have it in their hind feet
 
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