Help-My mini IS getting fatter. - Page 5

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Help-My mini IS getting fatter.

This is a discussion on Help-My mini IS getting fatter. within the Miniature Horses forums, part of the Horse Breeds category

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    10-13-2010, 12:59 PM
No problem, Spirited. I went to school for Equine Studies and learned a TON of stuff. Working at a vet clinic for years when I was a teenager helped a lot, but I've learned that you really need to do your research. If possible from actual scientific sources. It can really be difficult to find accurate information. Even a lot of the publications or veterinarians can give you incorrect information. One of the things I absolutely LOVE about my vet is that she is the first to say "I don't know, let me look that up and I'll get back to you." And she does, she'll pull out all of her books, journals, talk to specialists, etc to get you the right information. I love just calling her to talk.

Please keep us updated LittlemanRob I'd really like to know what you figure out with your boy. I want to commend you too on your willingness to learn about caring for your horses properly. It seems a lot of new horses owners have the attitude that as long as they love their horses everything will be fine. Definitely not the case.
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    10-13-2010, 02:34 PM

I had Quest to give my minis for the next round of worming! That's what my vet recommended!

Now, many people might say, "Well, trust your vet" but I learned the hard way...I have a 9 year old chihuahua. You can see a pic of her in one of the pictures of Bruno in my profile. I had never done flea treatments, but decided after moving here a year and a half ago, maybe I should start...just since it is a bit more rural, also less landcaped, more damp, etc.

My vet said there was no problem with this, and I got K9 Advantix.

Oh.My.God. My poor chi...she seemed to lose use of her back legs at one point, she was jerky and unstable, she seemed disoriented, glassy eyed etc. I immediately googled and found TONS of info with people that had dogs with the exact symptoms! I mean, I found this one message board with TONS of people on, talking about it. Some dogs died from it, others had permanent damage.

From what I read...there is nothing that could be done, you just had to wait it out. When I called my vet, he said that I should bring her in immediately, BUT that no way was it the flea med that caused these symptoms.

REALLY? No, I did not bring her in, so they could run a zillion tests and charge me a ton of money. I did what the message board told me to do and it took a few weeks...a few AWFUL weeks, and she slowly became normal again.

Whew, sorry for the loooong story! I am sure dogs can use this product and be "ok" but I would not chance it if I knew then what I know now. I am grateful for the info on the Quest. Thanks so much!
    10-13-2010, 02:44 PM
I found this:


I won't use Quest for several reasons. The FDA Center for Vet medicine keeps records for product related injuries. In 1997, they had 159 regarding Quest and it was #4 in the list for complaints that year. By 1998, there were 487 complaints making it #2 in the list. Complaints are received from both vets and consumers, documented and investigated. It is known that horses with heavy worm loads can be killed by it and because it requires such precise dosing, too little does nothing and too much can be lethal. It's also been linked to fetal deaths. If the horse has a heavy worm burden, it should be wormed with something like Panacur first and then Quest a couple of weeks later. The thing is that when Quest first came out, people weren't aware of this and probably still aren't and that's why horses are dying, not just mini's.
Much has been made about the posting on the Fort Dodge website regarding internet rumors about the product and that's their right to defend themselves. However, the FDA shows that there were a lot of complaints regarding the product and that there was also a large jump in numbers reporting. I should also point out that the active ingredient in Quest - moxidectin - was also used in ProHeart which was for heart worms in dogs. It was also made by Fort Dodge and it was pulled off the market by the FDA because by 2004 they had received 5552 reports of injuries to dogs and around 500 deaths. Same drug, same company - no thanks!

And this:
The problem with Quest is that even though it is effective at the recommended dose, it has a very small safety factor compared to other wormers. I've copied the following info from the link I listed:

Quest (moxidectin) is expected to cause physiological problems in a healthy horse at 5 times the effective dose. That is, if you give a healthy horse 5 times the dose recommended by the manufacturer, according to the horse's weight, you could expect to see problems (neurological
Problems would be most likely, with Quest/moxidectin), or have the horse die.

By contrast, ivermectin (brand names Zimecterin, Eqvalan, Rotectin 1, Equimectrin, etc.) is not expected to cause problems until 60 times the effective dose is given.

Oxibendazole (brand/trade name: Anthelcide EQ) is not expected to cause problems until 60 times the effective dose is given.

Fenbendazole (brand names Panacur, Safe-Guard) may cause problems at over 100-200 times the effective dose, although apparently when testing for side-effects from fenbendazole, the researchers had difficulty producing
Any problems at all, at any amount of overdose.

Pyrantel pamoate (brand names Strongid P, Strongid T, Rotectin 2) is safe for a healthy horse at up to 20 times the effective dose.

I have had readers make the comment that it would be difficult to mistakenly give a horse 5 times the recommended dose of Quest/moxidectin.
That is not the point. The point is that a worm medicine that is likely to cause obvious metabolic/physiological problems at 5 times overdose is likely much more toxic to the horse than a worm medicine that may cause obvious metabolic/physiological problems at 20, 60 or 100-200 times
Overdose, and is much more likely to cause subtle metabolic/physiological problems that may not be immediately apparent to a human observer at the
Recommended dose than another worm medicine that may cause obvious metabolic/physiological problems at 20, 60 or 100-200 times overdose. It is a matter of relative toxicity.

Also, when worming foals it would be fairly easy to give several times overdose of Quest/moxidectin, and there isn't much room for error.

All makes sense to me!
    10-13-2010, 02:56 PM
This all makes me think of some thing my husband just loves to remind people of, usually jokingly....
"That is why they call Dr.'s offices, a Medical Practice".

I think it is too easy to just trust the professionals, and in a lot of cases, it turns out that it was not the best idea.
The only thing we can do is investigate for our selves, and make the best educated and emotional based decision we can.
What might work for some, may not be right for all.

Okay, I'll step away from the soap-box now.....

dirtymartini, I am SO SORRY your little Chihuahua, and you, had to go through that!
Very happy to hear she came through it okay!!!

    10-13-2010, 03:00 PM
Thank you!
    10-13-2010, 03:45 PM
You know why it's so dangerous to give moxidectin to horses heavy worm loads? It is so effective at killing worms that in killing the worms it can leave large holes (for lack of a better term, sorry head cold = dumb Jen) in the horses GIT.

Same thing I said earlier. Moxidectin is more poisionous to worms = more poisionous to horses. Which is why we should ALL start doing fecal tests, using the correct dosages, and spreading the word to other horse people. If people continue de-worming like we have been for the last however many years, we will be left with no other option than moxidectin or some other similarly poisionous de-wormer. Just like the problems with antibiotics. It's extremely difficult to find a chemical that will kill/damage one species without harming the other.
    10-13-2010, 03:54 PM

You know, I was wondering....
This thread started about the weight of a mini, and now there is so much good information on Quest, and minis, etc.

Is there some way to get that info pinned in the minis section, so others can benefit as well that might not read the thread about weight?
Does an admin have to do that? I am not sure how that all works?
    10-13-2010, 03:57 PM
I think you can email them... Maybe if you cut & paste all the relavent info and make a new post "De-worming Minis" or something like that and ask them to sticky it?
    10-14-2010, 12:06 AM
I would like to thank everyone for the abundance of information on this thread. There are obviously serious concerns with poisons used in the control of parasites in our animals, not just horses.

I have read about issues with various flea and tick pesticides for dogs and opted not to treat my animals because of it. I check them for ticks regularly and although there have been cases of lyme disease in my province there hasn't been any incidents in my area.

I give both my dogs and horses diatomaceous earth (DE). It is supposed to control internal parasites and it is widely used as a feed additive for this purpose. It also contains 17 trace minerals. It is not a chemical or a poison. It is made up of microscopic sea creatures called diatoms that have a crystalline shell. The shell is very sharp at the microscopic level and is supposed to damage the exoskeleton of worms and other similar creatures and kill them. It has many other benefits as well.

Here is some detailed info:

Diatomaceous Earth - Food Grade Diatomaceous Earth Health Benefits

I also worm them but I think from now on I will get a fecal done and add wormer if needed. If they are clear then I will just stick to the DE. It is even safe for human consumption.

Make sure you only use FOOD GRADE DE. The other stuff is chemically treated for use in pool filters and it will kill your animals. You can buy the food grade stuff at most livestock places.

On vets. Although not horse related, this little story can show you the mindset of many vets.

My dog suffered a leg injury while playing in November of last year and tore both her ACL ligaments. I was devastated. She was in so much pain and couldn't even pee unassisted. I went to 2 different vets and both told me she needed immediate surgery and gave me a prescription for Metacam. She almost died after one dose. She was in a semi-coma for 2 days and finally snapped out of it. I second guessed everything both of the vets told me, including the $5000.00 worth of surgery *$2500 each leg*

I started to do some research on the net and discovered that some ACL tears can be helped with activity restriction and orthotics. Yes they make knee braces for dogs. I restricted her to a small area and no activity except for bathroom breaks. She started showing improvement in about 2 weeks and was able to pee unassisted. I found a local orthotics manufacturer and had a pair of knee braces custom made for her. She wore the braces 12 hours a day for two months and started walking with no limping so we cut her back to 6 hours a day for another month. After that, we began an exercise program of short walks with the braces and gradually worked up to longer walks. Here we are, less than a year later and she is fantastic. No braces and she runs and plays her heart out. No sign of limping or pain, even on waking. She is back to her old self. The cost of braces was about $1400 complete including multiple fittings. No intrusive surgery, no pain meds. We do have her on a glucosamine and chrondrite supplement for preventative maintenance.

The moral of this story is do your research. When I looked into the surgeries, drugs and side effects I was horrified. Some dogs are crippled for life. If it goes wrong there is no turning back. The method I used gave me options. If it didn't work, the very worse than would happen is I would have been out the extra $1400. If anything, the braces could have assisted her recovery even if I had to resort to surgery. My friends dog had ACL TPLO surgery about the same time and her dog still limps. Mine doesn't. I really felt like all the vet wanted was my money.

Sorry this turned out to be such a long winded post :(

This forum is great!
    10-14-2010, 09:14 AM
This forum is indeed GREAT! I love it!

I am so glad your dog is better.

Thank you for that link and info, I have never heard of DE ever...I am going to look into it further now, going to your link now.

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