About riding bitless...

Muppetgirl · 01-02-2013, 10:57 AM

BSMS - I couldn't help but crack up when I read that you'd been riding an unbroken horse that you thought was broke!! Lol that would've and could've got a little hairy pretty fast! Lol!

nrhareiner · 01-02-2013, 11:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pegasus1

I think a lot of the antagonisim in this thread comes from folks talking at cross purposes. When I talk of riding bridle-less in the foundation stage of training it is to get the horse thinking forwards. Not all horses need this, but I suspect all riders would benefit from riding a horse that can be ridden bridle-less.
I watched Josh, James Roberts apprentice, putting a first ride on a young horse destined to be an eventer. Very highly bred apparently. The horse was clearly thinking backwards and Josh was being too active with the reins. Eventually James called him over and took the halter off. Josh was now riding bridle-less on a first ride. This was not done as a trick or to show off, it was done with a purpose. James had figured that the halter was inhibiting forward thought in the horse and so removed it, with very good results.
This was using bridle-less for a purpose, to help put a good mental foundation on the horse on its' first ride. It was not to get the horse doing piaffe, barrel race or whatever, just to think forwards. As such it was a beautiful thing to watch. Of course the horse progressed back into a halter, and eventually a bit as the foundation progressed but at this stage in a safe enclosed environment the halter and bit were not appropriate.
Now given that Robert Whitaker had sent his last few colts to James to be started I suspect he had become known to produce light responsive horses. He was not an amateur horse starter, but one of the best. I respect the ideas and training he gave me before his sad demise in a car crash.
I am not advocating bridle-less as the sole training for performance riding of any sort, but just for putting a foundation on the horse.
If you wish to then do bridle-less performance work with the horse such as Stacy or Mikey Wanzenreid then bridle-less will come after considerable training with a bridle of some sort at the end of the foundation.

To me that is a lack of good ground work. If the horse is not moving forward under staddle removing a halter and riding a very green horse bridleless is not a good idea. Might have worked for this situation but not something that should be done. Just get your rear off the horse and teach the horse a forward cue from the ground and you will not have that problem.

Bridleless is not a form or training. It is again the end results of good training. If you have to take a bridle or halter off a horse to get them to move forward I think you need to figure out why and not just remove something.

nrhareiner · 01-02-2013, 11:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Muppetgirl

BSMS - I couldn't help but crack up when I read that you'd been riding an unbroken horse that you thought was broke!! Lol that would've and could've got a little hairy pretty fast! Lol!

Happens more then you would think.

My first horse Te a stallion when I got him was no where near broke. Had 30 days as a 2yo and I got him at 5. I just started ridding him. He was great but knew nothing. I really did not start training him to do much of anything until I moved back up here and started doing other things but trail riding and such. This is what you get when you have a very good natured horse.

bsms · 01-02-2013, 11:30 AM

That was what puzzled the trainer. She knew what a pee-poor rider I was and that I had ridden Mia a lot in an arena. So how could Mia be unbroke?

At the end of 4 training sessions, she warned me Mia might never be safe to ride outside an arena. It was on the 5th session that she concluded no broke horse could be so totally ignorant of yielding to pressure. We compared notes on what I had been told and how the previous owner said Mia had been used (or not), and the trainer concluded that, at best, Mia had perhaps 30 days of training when young (she was 7 when I bought her). The previous owner had said that Mia had largely been unridden for a few years, but I was too new to horses for any warning flag to go up! I was so new that no flag went up when they only let me ride her in a 30' round pen...

On the positive side, it meant Mia had a very sweet, willing nature. And she does. There isn't a mean bone in her body. We still have problems at times. She has fears of things, and she gets very excited at times, but she is a very willing, fundamentally gentle horse.

Since buying a horse, I think I've learned everything by doing it wrong the first time. Sometimes the second, third and fourth time too! The only thing that has saved me has been owning horses who are genuinely gentle, forgiving creatures.

jaydee · 01-02-2013, 11:32 AM

^^^^ and these are the exact sort of horses that the people who think they are somehow wonderful at horse breaking get hold of and make it all look & seem easy.
Our foals were all handled so well from birth they accepted everything we threw at them including a rider
Its when they get the sort that have attitude that the crash happens and reality checks in!!!!

Pegasus1 · 01-02-2013, 05:02 PM

It's a shame that many folks on this forum cannot accept that maybe there are other ways of doing things. Ah well, that's life I suppose.

nrhareiner · 01-02-2013, 06:05 PM

There are always other ways of doing things. Does not make them correct of safe of the best way.

The fact is taking a bridle or halter off a green horse is a dangorues thing. Again this forum has a lot of people who do not know any better and will think if they have a horse that will not move on their first few rides hay lets take off the head gear and that will fix it. The fact is that it will not. You have not fixed the over riding problem. The horse has no cue to move forward. All you are doing is going along for a ride. Get your rear off the horse and teach them a cue to go forward or get somone to lead the horse until the horse under stands what you are asking.

I have had horses who would not move once you got on the first time. I prefer that. I let them sit for a few min. Get off and go back to a bit of ground work. Before long they under stand that going is good as is standing.

TheAQHAGirl · 01-02-2013, 06:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pegasus1

It's a shame that many folks on this forum cannot accept that maybe there are other ways of doing things. Ah well, that's life I suppose.

It kinda is. I have actually heard of people riding bridleless their first ride. However when there are symptoms there are causes. Of course, the horse was green so the horse was obviously going to something. But it was kinda odd that the horse wasn't going forward with the halter on. I for one would have have something differently, but still whatever floats your boat.

Some people start a horse in a bit an others bosals an others rope halters. From what I know my horse was started with 7 rides on a rope halter and when I got her I used a bosal for a while (40ish days I think?...can't remember). Now she is 3 and in a bit. I still ride sometimes in a rope halter, heck I rode her bridleless the other day.

Anyways I can see where your getting at.

gottatrot · 01-02-2013, 07:18 PM

To me it's not that I am closed-minded to different ways of training horses. My concern is that people who are inexperienced with horses will get the idea that starting a horse bridleless or always riding in a rope halter is the most natural and least stressful way for the horse and not realize they may be putting their life or their horse's life in danger.

For every horse that has been exposed to many things in life and/or has a curious and open nature, there is another horse that has limited experience along with a more reactive nature. There are many horses that freeze up on a first ride that would respond well to having their head gear taken off and would simply walk loose around an arena. There are also many horses that would respond to having their head gear taken off on a first ride by spinning and taking off in a panic. These horses might run into a wall or fence and seriously injure themselves.

My bias comes also from meeting a woman who believed a horse should never wear a bit, and who had nearly been killed on three separate occasions when her horse spooked in a rope halter and bolted. When she discovered that her horse could not hear the whisper of the halter when the environment was like a jet runway (great analogy BSMS), her perfect control was lost.

Yet she could not bring herself to move beyond those deeply held beliefs about harming her horse with a bit, so had a brain bleed the first time (mild enough to not harm her brain), a punctured lung the second, and a ruptured spleen and pelvic fracture the third time. Her solution was that no one should ride the horse. To me this is illogical and ridiculous. Many horses can be ridden safely in a rope halter and many cannot, despite any number of years of correct training. It comes down to temperament in the end, not training.

COWCHICK77 · 01-02-2013, 09:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheAQHAGirl

It kinda is. I have actually heard of people riding bridleless their first ride. However when there are symptoms there are causes. Of course, the horse was green so the horse was obviously going to something. But it was kinda odd that the horse wasn't going forward with the halter on. I for one would have have something differently, but still whatever floats your boat.

Some people start a horse in a bit an others bosals an others rope halters. From what I know my horse was started with 7 rides on a rope halter and when I got her I used a bosal for a while (40ish days I think?...can't remember). Now she is 3 and in a bit. I still ride sometimes in a rope halter, heck I rode her bridleless the other day.

Anyways I can see where your getting at.

Not sure why anyone would want to purposely ride bridleless their first ride and I wouldn't recommend it, but to each their own.

I can see what Pegasus was getting at or at least what the clinician was trying to instill into his apprentice. Leave those colts heads alone their first ride.

When I say I start my colts in a halter, it is literally the first couple of rides when all I am doing is being a monkey on their back. I don't fuss with their face, all that halter is there for is to keep from a wreck happening. Then after a ride or two they move to a snaffle.

Back in the day when my hubby was working at a feedlot. The boss would turn about 10 colts out in a big pen, each pen rider would pick a colt, halter it(if it was halter broke) manage to get it saddled and everyone climbed on. The boss would flag them around the pen horseback(they called it "Ray Hunt-ing"..haha) They were not allowed to mess with the halter. Boss would yell "sit down" and he would turn all them colts back on the fence. Of course you change directions that fast on a colt like that and they usually go to bucking...LOL. But it wasn't long and they were paying attention to the body language rather than waiting to get swatted with a flag. Made it pretty easy once you started using a snaffle. You started the basis for seat, leg then hand.
Doesn't make any difference what head gear you use really, I just do very little ground work so what they are used to is a halter. If I start them in a snaffle I do a little ground work with the snaffle. Just as long as have a basic understanding so I can keep things some what controlled if need be. That's why I think going without a snaffle/halter whatever could be a wreck.

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