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Absolute Beginner! :D Will she kick me??

This is a discussion on Absolute Beginner! :D Will she kick me?? within the Natural Horsemanship forums, part of the Training Horses category
  • Why does my horse try to kick me when i take off the lead rope?

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    01-19-2011, 08:51 AM
  #11
Weanling
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cherie    
To simply answer your question -- Of course she will kick you.
I literally laughed out loud when I read that line. It's true!

Whether it be because of horse behavior or an accident, you will more than likely get hit at some point, just like you'll more than likely fall off once in a while-- It comes with the risk of owning an animal that, even when trained, has a mind of it's own. Just keep on loving her and keep on establishing who's in control.
     
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    01-19-2011, 06:40 PM
  #12
Foal
Thank you all SO SO SO much for all the feedback and advice. I will come back later with some questions!

Cherie - I would LOVE a plan of action. Thank you so much for taking the time to put something together for me. I appreciate it enormously.

One question for now, if I want to follow Parelli Programs, doesn't smacking a horse go against that sort of natural horsemanship?

Thanks!
     
    01-20-2011, 12:54 AM
  #13
Yearling
I am going to get yelled at for this one, as I know I am going to be a bit out of line....

I think Parelli can be a wonderful tool, but I wouldn't listen to every little thing they tell you to do. I have seen the Parelli's do some nasty things to horses. The Parelli's seem to think that people need to not ride their horses until they are "safe", but how is your horse going to be safe under saddle if you never ride it? It just isn't possible. Horses are BIG animals, they aren't some oversized stuffed animal. They will bite, kick, rear, buck.... I have seen people INSIST a horse tried to attack them, but it was the horse not understanding that humans aren't other horses; they can't play with us like they would another horse.

I am not trying to bash everyone who uses Parelli; as I said, it can be a useful tool, but I personally won't use it. My gelding is trained for level 1 and that is just for trusting and bonding, which I am fine with. But I still prefer Monty Roberts. Now THAT man is amazing. If you don't know who he is, google him. He is the one who created Join Up, one of my favorite NH tools.

If I were you, I would just learn to trust your horse and have an experienced horse person help you. Send your mare to a trainer who has experience with "problem" horses, but will still be gentle.

As for disciplining your horse.... Think of it more as correcting a behavior at is not acceptable. Until your establish that YOU are the head of the herd, your mare could very easily start to pick on you. And even after that your mare will have moments where she challenges your authority. Horses are big animals with minds of their own. I am really glad that you are asking for advice. There is a lot of good advice on this forum!

Sorry if I offended anyone, as I said, I was probably a bit out of line. I just wanted to state my opinion on the matter. Good luck!!
     
    01-20-2011, 01:31 AM
  #14
Yearling
Quote:
Originally Posted by eventerwannabe    
I am going to get yelled at for this one, as I know I am going to be a bit out of line....

I think Parelli can be a wonderful tool, but I wouldn't listen to every little thing they tell you to do. I have seen the Parelli's do some nasty things to horses. The Parelli's seem to think that people need to not ride their horses until they are "safe", but how is your horse going to be safe under saddle if you never ride it? It just isn't possible. Horses are BIG animals, they aren't some oversized stuffed animal. They will bite, kick, rear, buck.... I have seen people INSIST a horse tried to attack them, but it was the horse not understanding that humans aren't other horses; they can't play with us like they would another horse.

I am not trying to bash everyone who uses Parelli; as I said, it can be a useful tool, but I personally won't use it. My gelding is trained for level 1 and that is just for trusting and bonding, which I am fine with. But I still prefer Monty Roberts. Now THAT man is amazing. If you don't know who he is, google him. He is the one who created Join Up, one of my favorite NH tools.

If I were you, I would just learn to trust your horse and have an experienced horse person help you. Send your mare to a trainer who has experience with "problem" horses, but will still be gentle.

As for disciplining your horse.... Think of it more as correcting a behavior at is not acceptable. Until your establish that YOU are the head of the herd, your mare could very easily start to pick on you. And even after that your mare will have moments where she challenges your authority. Horses are big animals with minds of their own. I am really glad that you are asking for advice. There is a lot of good advice on this forum!

Sorry if I offended anyone, as I said, I was probably a bit out of line. I just wanted to state my opinion on the matter. Good luck!!
Well, after seeing a thread about Monty on here, I kind of look like an ass... xD I know nothing about NH really, just used a few different training tips. Si forget anything I said that is incorrect (though I stand by my opinion about the Parelli's). Sorry for double posting everyone, just wanted to say sorry for my ignorance.
     
    01-20-2011, 06:24 AM
  #15
Foal
Quote:
Originally Posted by mbender    
I can't remember how long you have had her but sometimes it takes a little bit for your confidence to build. And for her trust to be in you. The more time you spend with her, the more you rub her all over the better.
Only had her a few weeks, my first horse as well. I am trying to spend time with her everyday, but sometimes it is every second day.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mbender    
I agree with Frog as too the closer you are the better off you are at not getting kicked. I used to be just like you so I know exactly what you are feeling. If your not comfortable with walking around her behind, then don't do it yet.

Become more familiar with her. Keep up all the rubbing on both sides. Brushing her butt down to her feet. Sometimes, with my filly I will make her enjoy it by scratching gently up and down her legs.

She absolutely loves when I do that and gets super relaxed. That has helped me to feel safe and confident with a baby that has the potential to kick out of play or frustration. She never has and I don't think she ever will. She trusts when I'm there or behind her that I'm not a threat or something she wants to get rid of.
I notice when I am brushing or rubbing the top of her back legs, that the big muscle there (kind of the side at the top) is super relaxed, it wobbles like jelly! Is that a good sign she is relaxed and not winding up for a big boot?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cherie    
To simply answer your question -- Of course she will kick you. She is working up to it since you did nothing to let her know that the behavior was not allowed in your herd. When you gave her a 'pass' on her unacceptable behavior, it emboldened her and in effect, told her that she is above you in the pecking order. When she 'cow-kicked' at your daughter, she should have been punished because now she knows that the behavior is ok.
So what should I do? I don't want to smack or hit her at all. I thought the natural horsemanship program is a way to eliminate physical discipline?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cherie    
When we interact with a horse, particularly a new horse, that herd of 2 (the new horse and its handler) needs a dominant member and a submissive one. There are never 'equals'. Your mare is trying out for the spot of 'lead horse' in your herd of two. Right now, she is above you on that pecking order. When I interact with any horse or group of horses, I want to be the 'head pecker' (pun intended). I want to be the undisputed lead horse that they all respect and don't mess with. I want to be able to walk out through a group of 8 or 10 horses with a 5 gallon bucket of feed and I want them to stay a respectful distance and wait for me to pour feed into tubs scattered in a big circle. THAT is how it is at my house. This has not happened by accident. It means that I have effectively interacted with each and every horse so that each one knows I am waaaaay above them in the pecking order. I do not want them afraid of me because a fearful horse is more dangerous than a pushy one. I want their respect and attention 100% of the time.
This is what I would like to achieve too. Being in charge, in control.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cherie    
Yours is in the process of taking over your relationship with her. She is becoming the boss and you the fearful submissive herd member that is way down the pecking order.
Yes well this is not what I want to achieve, which is why I am here and really appreciate all the feedback.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cherie    
I hope this puts it all in perspective. Novice horse owners have a tendency to take it personal. I hear questions like "Why did she want to hurt me?" or "I have only been nice to her. I just can't understand why she would do this to me?"
I don't think like that at all. I don't personalise her behaviour. I understand she is driven by instinct and intelligence.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cherie    
I will try to get back to my computer tomorrow and lay out a plan of action that will work for a novice owner.
Fabulous thank you!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by tinyliny    
In any case , if that happens again, you must immediately react. If you are really close, whack her as close to where she kicked as possible, and don't mince words; make an impression!
Or, take the lead rope and immediately mover her around you in a circle briskly and with authority. She needs to have YOU immediately put her back down in the place below you where she started out.
I don't like the idea of hitting her at all. I am not comfortable with hitting anything. My kids rarely get smacked. Can I put my horse into timeout instead?? Ha ha... I really like your other suggestion of a brisk circle. I guess I can use that for anything? Or just if she kicks or bites? She hasn't kicked again or bitten at all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tinyliny    
On the other hand, most horses don't kick without some kind of warning. That's why when I am handling my horse I try to keep his face in my peripheral vision as much as possible. As a hroseman/woman you will learn to have visual and sensory feelers out around you at all times.
Great advice, I will remember this at all times.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cherie    
OK -- Now I am confused.

Where does someone that does not have a clue, suddenly get 'confidence'? Do they order it from Dover or some other E-store?
Maybe I will try Ebay.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cherie    
Confidence comes from competence. Competence comes from experience and knowledge.
Yes which is why I am here asking questions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cherie    
This is exactly why I tell a lot of people to go out and find a 'mentor' or befriend a competent, respected horseman in their area. You will learn more from osmosis than you can learn from DVDs or books that give you no feedback.
Will definitely do this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mbender    
I'm a big believer in her dynamics and use that to my advantage. Watch eyes, ears, swish of a tail... All tells you how the horse is feeling and warning signs of things to come! And I agree with others on NOT letting her get away with any rude behavior with a swift consequence!
What sort of consequence would you use?

Quote:
Originally Posted by eventerwannabe    
I am going to get yelled at for this one, as I know I am going to be a bit out of line....

I think Parelli can be a wonderful tool, but I wouldn't listen to every little thing they tell you to do.

But I still prefer Monty Roberts. Now THAT man is amazing. If you don't know who he is, google him. He is the one who created Join Up, one of my favorite NH tools.
I guess it is easier for me, a complete novice, to choose one thing to start with, otherwise it is so confusing. Like kids, there are so many different ways to raising them. I like what I read about Parelli stuff, it appeals to what I want to achieve with a horse. And I guess they have packaged and mareketed it in a user friendly way.

I have seen Monty and the Join Up video's on You Tube. AMAZING. I plan on building a round pen for working in and doing stuff like that. AMAZING!!

Thanks.
     
    01-20-2011, 07:21 AM
  #16
Green Broke
Ok I'll try and answer all of your questions.

So you noticed her relax when brushing. Good thing! As I said, keep close to her body, legs, butt. If she were to try and kick, you would be bumped and not actually struck. Continue to brush, rub, scratch her back there.

You are seriously not going to get results if you do not discipline her!! I said that herd dynamics is very important information and knowing how a horse communicates. Its not "oh hun stop or even a sharp stop". If you watch horses in a herd, what happens if a horse gets to close to another horse? Its a look, ears pin back, tail swishes, and if that doesn't work, last resort is to bite!

The same goes for Natural Horsemanship. There needs to be a clear warning, before the bite. Hitting your horse to them is NOTHING compared to the kicks or chunks taken out of them for not listening in the herd!

You will get more results by quickly correcting her than letting it slide. If you correct her make sure you have a lead and halter on so she can't get away. Also, I use a crop, that is my bite. But because you don't want her afraid of your tools, only when training, not in a correction (bite, kick at you), you rub her with the whip, crop.

I think you should watch Clinton Andersons dvds. You can take a lot of different training techniques from different trainers and use them when necessary. Let me know if you have more questions. Good luck and stay safe!
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    01-20-2011, 03:40 PM
  #17
Super Moderator
Quote:
So what should I do? I don't want to smack or hit her at all. I thought the natural horsemanship program is a way to eliminate physical discipline?

Read more: http://www.horseforum.com/natural-horsemanship/absolute-beginner-d-will-she-kick-76008/page2/#ixzz1BawcN8Im
I do not know who told you that when using 'Natural Horsemanship', you eliminate all discipline. Natural Horsemanship means that you use a horse's 'natural hard-wired instincts' to teach it acceptable from non-acceptable behavior. IF you do not interrupt unwanted behaviors before they become something that the horse thinks you accept, then you are stuck using negative reinforcement to break that cycle. They establish bad behaviors very quickly and then many of them will fight tooth and nail for the right to continue that unwanted behavior.

Have you ever watched herd dynamics? That is what I tried to explain before. The lead horse is the boss. If a horse that is lower on the pecking order tries to get the first feed tub away from the lead horse, that horse will not only be chased away from the feed tub, it will be bit hard (like have a hunk of hide removed) and may have its ribs kicked hard. If a low horse on the pecking order physically challenges or threatens the lead horse, (like laying its ears back or baring its teeth), it will be punished so severely that it will be bit, kicked, chased completely out of the herd and may not be let back in the herd for a week. This is 'natural horsemanship' as horses dish it out. Horses even paw and kick each other when they play. They are not made of china. If you do not want to ever be in a position where you SHOULD spank one, you need to raise cats or get a dog for a pet or get SO GOOD at handling horses that you NEVER let one make a mistake. Horses, especially ones that have been allowed to develop bad behaviors, are going to need to be straightened out. That may include an occasional spanking to keep a 1200# animal with hard, sharp hooves from breaking a person's leg or killing them with a kick to their head. IT HAPPENS!

When I train a horse that has not been messed up, I usually NEVER have to use a whip or a spur or any physical discipline. When I get in one that is already spoiled (yes, yours is now spoiled), well, then it depends how easily the horse is willing to give up the behavior. I never advocate 'beating' a horse, I never want anyone to strike a horse in anger because they will not use good judgment and I never want anyone to strike a horse's head or face. One never wants to injure a horse, but a 130 # person disciplining a 1200# horse too severely is remote at best. If a person knows what they are doing and knows how to 'read' horse intentions and behavior, they can interrupt any bad 'thoughts' and 'intentions' a horse has before they become bad deeds. If caught in time, the only discipline a horse usually needs is to speak harshly to it (all of mine are "Ah!" broke) or give it a jerk on the lead-rope and/or back it up 8 or 10 steps. That is all it takes for a good-minded horse to accept that it shouldn't challenge your authority -- ever.

The other voice command I use is a "Smooch!" I use it any time I want a horse to move its feet. I use it when I ask a horse to step forward, back or move over. Then I reinforce it if necessary with a 'tap' on the shoulder or chest or a bump on the nose with the lead-rope. This tap or bump is not a form of discipline. It is only to reinforce a request and is only done hard enough to irritate a horse and make it move away from the pressure. The instant the horse responds properly, you stop putting any pressure on it. They will continue to respond by doing whatever they did that resulted in all pressure being removed. A smooch is then all that is needed to have a horse move lightly the direction indicated by the handler. To strike or jerk a horse hard to reinforce a request only makes one over-react and puts it in a reactive mode.

You can try establishing ordinary ground manners. This is best done by asking a horse to back up and move its shoulder over and away from you -- both directions. In other words, you push and smooch and it moves. I do not like running one around in circles. I want them to 'yield' -- to back up and move over -- not think they can run away from being responsive. I like moving a shoulder over much better than I like moving a hip over. Again, it takes more responsiveness from a horse.

If you do this and the horse still wants to lay its ears back, move its hip toward you or threatens you in any way, then it is going to take more discipline. I will cover that next time.
     
    01-20-2011, 07:11 PM
  #18
Weanling
Quote:
Originally Posted by eventerwannabe    

.... I have seen people INSIST a horse tried to attack them
Lol you should see one of the ponies where I work so XD When somebody goes out to catch him he pins his ears back and trots after the person until they leave him alone XD Funny but scary when it is you he is chasing XD Very clever pony I must say.
     
    01-20-2011, 08:04 PM
  #19
Green Broke
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sarahandlola    
Lol you should see one of the ponies where I work so XD When somebody goes out to catch him he pins his ears back and trots after the person until they leave him alone XD Funny but scary when it is you he is chasing XD Very clever pony I must say.
I would love to have a go with that pony
Quote:
Originally Posted by mbender    
Ok I'll try and answer all of your questions...

I think you should watch Clinton Andersons dvds. You can take a lot of different training techniques from different trainers and use them when necessary. Let me know if you have more questions. Good luck and stay safe!
Posted via Mobile Device
I totally agree. Clinton Anderson is so awesome! I also have used things from other trainers. One technique does not work on all horses, so you need to be able to adapt to the horse.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GreenTreeFrog    
Thank you all SO SO SO much for all the feedback and advice. I will come back later with some questions!

Cherie - I would LOVE a plan of action. Thank you so much for taking the time to put something together for me. I appreciate it enormously.

One question for now, if I want to follow Parelli Programs, doesn't smacking a horse go against that sort of natural horsemanship?

Thanks!
If you ever find a trainer that says they have never hit a horse, they are probably lying. If a horse was to spin and put their butt to me, I wouldn't hesitate a fraction of a second to whack them first before I get kicked. When we hit a horse, it is no way comparable to another horse kicking them.
     
    01-20-2011, 08:46 PM
  #20
Trained
Sorry, but I just don't get who decided that natural horsemanship meant that no physical contact or discipline takes place. Horses use it all the time. Suppose your horse was out in a herd with a horse who was more dominant than her. Say your horse decides she wants to eat the same flake of hay as the dominant horse. The dominant horse will not like that. First she will pin her ears back at your horse. If your horse does not move, she will spin her head around and pretend to bite her. If she still doesn't move away, the dominant horse will kick her into next week. Doesn't that sound like contact based discipline to you?

Nobody is saying to beat the crap out of your horse, but you need to answer as loudly as necessary in order to make the proper corrections, or you are going to have a horse that walks all over you. I personally don't hit anywhere on the head, but if my horse tries to play nip at me, yeah, he gets a quick sharp flick on his neck. If he tries it again, I shake his lead rope until he backs up a good 5'. Corrections need to be quick, but no necessarily rough. Horses play bite and kick all the time, but if you watch, you'll notice they never make any contact. The name of the game is, "I'm above you and therefore quicker than you, and I could have landed that play kick if I had wanted to do so". They horse around as the saying goes, and then only seconds later, they're all standing around again like nothing happened. It all is very immediate and short lived. As long as your reactions are quick so they are directly related to what the horse did, they will be effective. As John Lyons said, if your horse does something unacceptable, you have 3 seconds to make his life miserable. Hope this helps.
     

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