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Absolute Beginner! :D Will she kick me??

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        01-20-2011, 08:49 PM
      #21
    Trained
    Oops, I see Cherie already pointed out the relation to herd dynamics and contact. That's a great post by the way Cherie. If I ever get a spoiled brat, I'm coming to you!
         
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        01-24-2011, 10:42 PM
      #22
    Yearling
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by MyBoyPuck    
    Oops, I see Cherie already pointed out the relation to herd dynamics and contact. That's a great post by the way Cherie. If I ever get a spoiled brat, I'm coming to you!
    Agreed, really enjoying Cherie's posts!

    I have been around horses for quite some time now, my rule of thumb when handling my horse is that MY feet don't have to move - hers do. This is a really simple concept but possibly quite scary to a newbie. Just sit down and have a think about your interactions with your horse, think about how many times YOU have moved out of HER way. That, right there, has to stop. Now think about those times and ask yourself what you could have done to make her move away from you rather than the other way around. This is what you need to be learning about. I am willing to bet that Cherie will have some sound advice and I would listen to her if I was you.

    I would be willing to bet that you have been trying to be very quiet around the horse as well, don't make any sudden movements etc. The down side of that is that you will probably be making yourself seem smaller than you are. First thing to change is body language, you want to be as BIG as you can be, tall, head up, shoulders very straight, move big and if she gets startled by you, all the better, it's a start as she will be seeing you as intimidating rather than a doormat. Just a thought, I don't what you are like around the horse, just thought I would give you a starting point.
         
        01-25-2011, 05:55 AM
      #23
    Foal
    That is a good point Kiwigirl. I HAVE been quiet and gentle around her!!! That all stops now.

    I will look back and laugh at all this one day.

    I went and had a couple of hours with Parelli expert on Sunday. Learnt HEAPS! It was fantastic. Still a million miles to go but I have taken the first few steps.
         
        01-29-2011, 06:40 AM
      #24
    Foal
    I have continued with the Parelli stuff and stepped up my authority with her.

    I can move her backwards, front end around, sideways and back end around with little pressure.

    I can rub the crop and carrot stick all over her. And flick the rope gently all over her and around her legs.

    I can move her back end around (both ways) by mimicking as if I am going in for the bite (like another horse in a herd), she moves it round pretty quick!

    I spent two hours the other day with a lady who has several horses and has owned and trained many more over the years. Shas has followed Parelli for 16 years until a few years ago when things changed and she branched off. She still recommends a lot of their ground work for establishing that bond with her.

    Cherie - if you ever get the chance, I would love a plan of action. Your experience is incredible.

    So far so good! Thanks everyone.
         
        02-03-2011, 10:42 PM
      #25
    Super Moderator
    Sorry I disappeared. My 86 year old step-dad is almost 'gone' and I went to Colorado to visit him and my half-sister. I was gone 10 days and came back to more snow in Southern Oklahoma that in the Colorado mountains.

    Okay -- back to a plan of action. I start out every horse by 'pushing them around'. I do not knock to slap them around but I darn sure push them around. As I said before, I particularly like to push a horse's shoulder / front end over and away from me. I know a lot of people like to make a horse move its hind end (called 'disengaging the hind quarters'.) I am not such a fan of that. It is too easy and not meaningful enough. It is too easy in that while it is quite a simple matter for a person to move a horse's hind end over, the horse can also do this to disrespect a person. If you want a horse to stand still and NOT move away like for grooming and saddleing, it is very easy for one to just step its hind end away just like you taught it to. So, I opt for the more difficult move (and one a horse cannot use against a handler quite as easily). I prefer to make a horse step its shoulder over 3 or 4 steps. I will switch sides and do it just as much or even more from the horse's off side. I find that getting a horse very 'light' and willing to move its shoulders from the ground makes it easier to get the same moves and respect from its back.

    Then, I back a horse up from the ground -- a lot. It is a very submissive move to be deliberately backed up on the ground. I now only have two stallions. I have had as many as 10. No matter how well-mannered a stallion is (one of the ones I have now I have shown quite a bit) I ALWAYS back a stallion up several steps EVERY time I put a halter on one. As stallions tend to be very dominant individuals, I like to remind them every time I handle them that I am 'in charge'.

    Once a horse has gotten spoiled enough to kick, bite or paw a handler, they may need more convincing that you are the boss of your herd of two. They may need a hard jerk or two on a lead-rope or -- heaven forbid -- a spanking or two. I, personally, am not a big fan of chain lead-shanks. I think they get more beginners in trouble than if they left them alone and I don't really need one. So, I just use a stiff 'cowboy style' rope halter. I know they look pretty 'tacky' in an 'English' barn, but I like them better than a chain. Just personal preference, I suppose. If a horse 'bows up' at me or just refuses to back up or move over (not at all unusual with a really dominant, spoiled horse), I will spank the horse on the chest or shoulder with a dressage whip or a twisted, folded up piece of baling wire. When I was training full time for the public, I kept a piece of folded up and twisted baling wire in my back pocket. It might stay there (like the hoof pick that is always in my other back pocket) for weeks at a time without ever needing it, but if a horse bulled up and refused to move-- or worse yet, swung its butt or tried to push its shoulder into me -- it was right handy where I could remind him who moved their feet first and where they were going to move them. Now, that I do not handle other people's spoiled horses very often and only handle my own (that have never had a chance to misbehave), I do not need to be as prepared. Like I said before, it is much easier to start them right in their relationship with you and never let them even think for a minute that they might be the dominant one in your pair than to fix a broken relationship with them.

    Everyone should really take this to heart: Never peck or tap on a misbehaving horse. Spank it good and spank it more than is needed to just barely get the job done. You want it to NOT repeat the behavior and NOT try you again. If you are only going to just 'peck' on a horse, you are better not touching it at all. It only makes one madder and only makes one worse. Thrash it out good enough that it knows better than to try kicking or biting or whatever again and then you only have to do it once. Then and only then is it effective to spank a horse. If you spank one and it lays its ears back and it makes it mad, you did not do it harshly enough to make it effective and you only made the situation worse. This is how ALL of the really mean, vicious horses I have encountered got that way. Someone 'pecked' on them only hard enough to make them meaner.

    Now, before all of you 'horsie huggers' think I am a mean old lady that is abusing horses and NOT using 'Natural Horsemanship', I maintain that I AM USING Natural Horsemanship and YOU ARE NOT! I am teaching a horse a lesson it will remember and respect just like the lead horse in a herd teaches it -- with great discomfort and misery -- I hope! Then, that lesson will not have to be repeated. If you have to repeatedly discipline a horse, then you are not doing it effectively enough to be doing it right. Done correctly --- It only takes once or twice at the most.
         
        02-03-2011, 11:17 PM
      #26
    Yearling
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Cherie    
    Sorry I disappeared. My 86 year old step-dad is almost 'gone' and I went to Colorado to visit him and my half-sister. I was gone 10 days and came back to more snow in Southern Oklahoma that in the Colorado mountains.

    Okay -- back to a plan of action. I start out every horse by 'pushing them around'. I do not knock to slap them around but I darn sure push them around. As I said before, I particularly like to push a horse's shoulder / front end over and away from me. I know a lot of people like to make a horse move its hind end (called 'disengaging the hind quarters'.) I am not such a fan of that. It is too easy and not meaningful enough. It is too easy in that while it is quite a simple matter for a person to move a horse's hind end over, the horse can also do this to disrespect a person. If you want a horse to stand still and NOT move away like for grooming and saddleing, it is very easy for one to just step its hind end away just like you taught it to. So, I opt for the more difficult move (and one a horse cannot use against a handler quite as easily). I prefer to make a horse step its shoulder over 3 or 4 steps. I will switch sides and do it just as much or even more from the horse's off side. I find that getting a horse very 'light' and willing to move its shoulders from the ground makes it easier to get the same moves and respect from its back.

    Then, I back a horse up from the ground -- a lot. It is a very submissive move to be deliberately backed up on the ground. I now only have two stallions. I have had as many as 10. No matter how well-mannered a stallion is (one of the ones I have now I have shown quite a bit) I ALWAYS back a stallion up several steps EVERY time I put a halter on one. As stallions tend to be very dominant individuals, I like to remind them every time I handle them that I am 'in charge'.

    Once a horse has gotten spoiled enough to kick, bite or paw a handler, they may need more convincing that you are the boss of your herd of two. They may need a hard jerk or two on a lead-rope or -- heaven forbid -- a spanking or two. I, personally, am not a big fan of chain lead-shanks. I think they get more beginners in trouble than if they left them alone and I don't really need one. So, I just use a stiff 'cowboy style' rope halter. I know they look pretty 'tacky' in an 'English' barn, but I like them better than a chain. Just personal preference, I suppose. If a horse 'bows up' at me or just refuses to back up or move over (not at all unusual with a really dominant, spoiled horse), I will spank the horse on the chest or shoulder with a dressage whip or a twisted, folded up piece of baling wire. When I was training full time for the public, I kept a piece of folded up and twisted baling wire in my back pocket. It might stay there (like the hoof pick that is always in my other back pocket) for weeks at a time without ever needing it, but if a horse bulled up and refused to move-- or worse yet, swung its butt or tried to push its shoulder into me -- it was right handy where I could remind him who moved their feet first and where they were going to move them. Now, that I do not handle other people's spoiled horses very often and only handle my own (that have never had a chance to misbehave), I do not need to be as prepared. Like I said before, it is much easier to start them right in their relationship with you and never let them even think for a minute that they might be the dominant one in your pair than to fix a broken relationship with them.

    Everyone should really take this to heart: Never peck or tap on a misbehaving horse. Spank it good and spank it more than is needed to just barely get the job done. You want it to NOT repeat the behavior and NOT try you again. If you are only going to just 'peck' on a horse, you are better not touching it at all. It only makes one madder and only makes one worse. Thrash it out good enough that it knows better than to try kicking or biting or whatever again and then you only have to do it once. Then and only then is it effective to spank a horse. If you spank one and it lays its ears back and it makes it mad, you did not do it harshly enough to make it effective and you only made the situation worse. This is how ALL of the really mean, vicious horses I have encountered got that way. Someone 'pecked' on them only hard enough to make them meaner.

    Now, before all of you 'horsie huggers' think I am a mean old lady that is abusing horses and NOT using 'Natural Horsemanship', I maintain that I AM USING Natural Horsemanship and YOU ARE NOT! I am teaching a horse a lesson it will remember and respect just like the lead horse in a herd teaches it -- with great discomfort and misery -- I hope! Then, that lesson will not have to be repeated. If you have to repeatedly discipline a horse, then you are not doing it effectively enough to be doing it right. Done correctly --- It only takes once or twice at the most.
    Kiwigirl stands and applaudes! Yay Cherie!
         
        02-03-2011, 11:25 PM
      #27
    Yearling
    GreenTreeFrog, I know that you have been on the Parelli thread on NH section of training Cheries post really highlights the main thing you have to be careful of when dealing with Parelli.

    To quote Cherie:

    Everyone should really take this to heart: Never peck or tap on a misbehaving horse. Spank it good and spank it more than is needed to just barely get the job done. You want it to NOT repeat the behavior and NOT try you again. If you are only going to just 'peck' on a horse, you are better not touching it at all. It only makes one madder and only makes one worse. Thrash it out good enough that it knows better than to try kicking or biting or whatever again and then you only have to do it once. Then and only then is it effective to spank a horse. If you spank one and it lays its ears back and it makes it mad, you did not do it harshly enough to make it effective and you only made the situation worse. This is how ALL of the really mean, vicious horses I have encountered got that way. Someone 'pecked' on them only hard enough to make them meaner.

    This paragraph defines many Parelli devotees relationship with their horses. Just be careful that your games don't become pointless pecking. The most important part when dealing with a horse is knowing when to STOP what your doing.

    Sorry for dragging the Parelli thread into yours, I am genuinely trying to be helpful if I am not being helpful then feel free to ignore me .
         
        02-03-2011, 11:47 PM
      #28
    Super Moderator
    Thank you Kiwigirl.

    You are absolutely correct about many of the Parelli disciples. I help many beginners and 4-H type people find suitable horses. I have gotten to where I will not even go look at a horse that is advertised as a 'Parelli horse'. Most of them I have gone and looked at ride terrible and are so 'ill' and just plain mad at everybody from the endless hours of pointless pecking and game playing that instead of developing a good relationship with their owner they have just plain learned to hate people. I know that is not what the program is designed to do, but the way many people practice it, that is what they get. That is why a mentor --- a real live one-on-one person to work with, gives you 'feedback' and tells you what you are not doing right. No tape or DVD or memories of a 'clinic' or 'demonstraton' can do that. You can screw it up and no one is there to tell you that you are doing this or that wrong. You are just free to keep screwing it up until you have a really 'ill' horse that is beyond repair.
         
        02-04-2011, 12:32 AM
      #29
    Foal
    Thank you thank you Cherie. I am REALLY grateful for the time you took to write out the advice.

    I will take it onboard and follow it. It sounds like great, common sense advice.

    I have engaged the services of an NH instructor to work alongside my own research and education on working with horses.

    Again, thank you.
         
        02-11-2011, 07:06 AM
      #30
    Weanling
    It's good to always expect a horse will kick you any chance it gets, but hope it doesnt. That way when it doesn't kick you, you can feel really happy and when it does kick you, you can only blame yourself!
         

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