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Absolute Beginner! :D Will she kick me??

6K views 39 replies 19 participants last post by  gypsygirl 
#1 ·
I have become owner of a gorgeous 14yo thoroughbred mare called Elly. I ADORE her.

She has been ridden occasioanlly over the last three years, she was living with my cousin.

For 6 years prior to that, she was ridden occasionally and had some Parelli training with my Aunty.

Her history is of a gentle, sweet natured horse who has never intentionally hurt anyone.

I know next to nothing about horses. I have been researching and working with the Parelli 7 Games program with her. She is doing really well. I can rub her all over and get her to put her head down.

I am afraid of her kicking me. I know I know, she will sense that. That itself concerns me because she might boot me because of it!

When she was being loaded into the float when we picked her up, I saw her kick her leg forward. She bucked and kicked back as well. I understand, she was scared and nervous as it was the first time she had been floated in three years.

She had been here about two weeks and my 16yo niece had ridden her, I led. My niece was getting back up on her and Elly kicked forward again, getting my niece right in the thigh. It left a mark but didn't really hurt. At the same time as her trying to mount Elly, a grinder started some distance away and I suspect she got spooked.

When I run my hands all over her, she is calm and relaxed. She doesn't bite, I can massage her lips, rub all over her face etc. Run my hands down her legs and over her rump. I just can't bring myself to cross around the back of her. The problem is me and my confidence obviously. I don't know her, or horses, well enough, to understand whether she will pick up on nervousness when I try to walk around the back of her and boot me for good measure!

Can someone please give me any advice on what I can/should/shouldn't do?

Just do it perhaps!! :lol:

Thanks!
 
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#4 ·
I can't remember how long you have had her but sometimes it takes a little bit for your confidence to build. And for her trust to be in you. The more time you spend with her, the more you rub her all over the better.

I agree with Frog as too the closer you are the better off you are at not getting kicked. I used to be just like you so I know exactly what you are feeling. If your not comfortable with walking around her behind, then don't do it yet.

Become more familiar with her. Keep up all the rubbing on both sides. Brushing her butt down to her feet. Sometimes, with my filly I will make her enjoy it by scratching gently up and down her legs.

She absolutely loves when I do that and gets super relaxed. That has helped me to feel safe and confident with a baby that has the potential to kick out of play or frustration. She never has and I don't think she ever will. She trusts when I'm there or behind her that I'm not a threat or something she wants to get rid of.

Granted, like any horse keep your wits about you and don't let down your guard. That's where you can get in trouble. Anything can happen but don't try and focus on that. Keep doing what your doing and give yourself time and her time to adjust to one another and build a trusting relationship with her.

Do this and you will have one heck of a horse and one heck of a friend!
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#15 ·
I can't remember how long you have had her but sometimes it takes a little bit for your confidence to build. And for her trust to be in you. The more time you spend with her, the more you rub her all over the better.
Only had her a few weeks, my first horse as well. I am trying to spend time with her everyday, but sometimes it is every second day.

I agree with Frog as too the closer you are the better off you are at not getting kicked. I used to be just like you so I know exactly what you are feeling. If your not comfortable with walking around her behind, then don't do it yet.

Become more familiar with her. Keep up all the rubbing on both sides. Brushing her butt down to her feet. Sometimes, with my filly I will make her enjoy it by scratching gently up and down her legs.

She absolutely loves when I do that and gets super relaxed. That has helped me to feel safe and confident with a baby that has the potential to kick out of play or frustration. She never has and I don't think she ever will. She trusts when I'm there or behind her that I'm not a threat or something she wants to get rid of.
I notice when I am brushing or rubbing the top of her back legs, that the big muscle there (kind of the side at the top) is super relaxed, it wobbles like jelly! Is that a good sign she is relaxed and not winding up for a big boot?

To simply answer your question -- Of course she will kick you. She is working up to it since you did nothing to let her know that the behavior was not allowed in your herd. When you gave her a 'pass' on her unacceptable behavior, it emboldened her and in effect, told her that she is above you in the pecking order. When she 'cow-kicked' at your daughter, she should have been punished because now she knows that the behavior is ok.
So what should I do? I don't want to smack or hit her at all. I thought the natural horsemanship program is a way to eliminate physical discipline?

When we interact with a horse, particularly a new horse, that herd of 2 (the new horse and its handler) needs a dominant member and a submissive one. There are never 'equals'. Your mare is trying out for the spot of 'lead horse' in your herd of two. Right now, she is above you on that pecking order. When I interact with any horse or group of horses, I want to be the 'head pecker' (pun intended). I want to be the undisputed lead horse that they all respect and don't mess with. I want to be able to walk out through a group of 8 or 10 horses with a 5 gallon bucket of feed and I want them to stay a respectful distance and wait for me to pour feed into tubs scattered in a big circle. THAT is how it is at my house. This has not happened by accident. It means that I have effectively interacted with each and every horse so that each one knows I am waaaaay above them in the pecking order. I do not want them afraid of me because a fearful horse is more dangerous than a pushy one. I want their respect and attention 100% of the time.
This is what I would like to achieve too. Being in charge, in control.

Yours is in the process of taking over your relationship with her. She is becoming the boss and you the fearful submissive herd member that is way down the pecking order.
Yes well this is not what I want to achieve, which is why I am here and really appreciate all the feedback.

I hope this puts it all in perspective. Novice horse owners have a tendency to take it personal. I hear questions like "Why did she want to hurt me?" or "I have only been nice to her. I just can't understand why she would do this to me?"
I don't think like that at all. I don't personalise her behaviour. I understand she is driven by instinct and intelligence.

I will try to get back to my computer tomorrow and lay out a plan of action that will work for a novice owner.
Fabulous thank you!!!

In any case , if that happens again, you must immediately react. If you are really close, whack her as close to where she kicked as possible, and don't mince words; make an impression!
Or, take the lead rope and immediately mover her around you in a circle briskly and with authority. She needs to have YOU immediately put her back down in the place below you where she started out.
I don't like the idea of hitting her at all. I am not comfortable with hitting anything. My kids rarely get smacked. Can I put my horse into timeout instead?? Ha ha... I really like your other suggestion of a brisk circle. I guess I can use that for anything? Or just if she kicks or bites? She hasn't kicked again or bitten at all.

On the other hand, most horses don't kick without some kind of warning. That's why when I am handling my horse I try to keep his face in my peripheral vision as much as possible. As a hroseman/woman you will learn to have visual and sensory feelers out around you at all times.
Great advice, I will remember this at all times.

OK -- Now I am confused.

Where does someone that does not have a clue, suddenly get 'confidence'? Do they order it from Dover or some other E-store?
Maybe I will try Ebay. :lol:

Confidence comes from competence. Competence comes from experience and knowledge.
Yes which is why I am here asking questions.

This is exactly why I tell a lot of people to go out and find a 'mentor' or befriend a competent, respected horseman in their area. You will learn more from osmosis than you can learn from DVDs or books that give you no feedback.
Will definitely do this.

I'm a big believer in her dynamics and use that to my advantage. Watch eyes, ears, swish of a tail... All tells you how the horse is feeling and warning signs of things to come! And I agree with others on NOT letting her get away with any rude behavior with a swift consequence!
What sort of consequence would you use?

I am going to get yelled at for this one, as I know I am going to be a bit out of line....

I think Parelli can be a wonderful tool, but I wouldn't listen to every little thing they tell you to do.

But I still prefer Monty Roberts. Now THAT man is amazing. If you don't know who he is, google him. He is the one who created Join Up, one of my favorite NH tools.
I guess it is easier for me, a complete novice, to choose one thing to start with, otherwise it is so confusing. Like kids, there are so many different ways to raising them. I like what I read about Parelli stuff, it appeals to what I want to achieve with a horse. And I guess they have packaged and mareketed it in a user friendly way.

I have seen Monty and the Join Up video's on You Tube. AMAZING. I plan on building a round pen for working in and doing stuff like that. AMAZING!!

Thanks. :razz:
 
#5 ·
To simply answer your question -- Of course she will kick you. She is working up to it since you did nothing to let her know that the behavior was not allowed in your herd. When you gave her a 'pass' on her unacceptable behavior, it emboldened her and in effect, told her that she is above you in the pecking order. When she 'cow-kicked' at your daughter, she should have been punished because now she knows that the behavior is ok.

Horses get their behavior patterns from normal herd behavior. I have studied herd dynamics for more than 50 years. I can tell you that just about everything a horse does when it interacts with a human -- especially on the ground -- is driven by this inherent 'hard-wired' herd behavior.

In a herd of horses, there is a 'lead horse'. Nobody but nobody messes with the lead horse. When she come by, the others part like the Red Sea to let her through. They let her have the first feed tub with no fight. There is quite a bit of jostling around between the others to see who get the 2nd and 3rd spot and so forth.

When we interact with a horse, particularly a new horse, that herd of 2 (the new horse and its handler) needs a dominant member and a submissive one. There are never 'equals'. Your mare is trying out for the spot of 'lead horse' in your herd of two. Right now, she is above you on that pecking order. When I interact with any horse or group of horses, I want to be the 'head pecker' (pun intended). I want to be the undisputed lead horse that they all respect and don't mess with. I want to be able to walk out through a group of 8 or 10 horses with a 5 gallon bucket of feed and I want them to stay a respectful distance and wait for me to pour feed into tubs scattered in a big circle. THAT is how it is at my house. This has not happened by accident. It means that I have effectively interacted with each and every horse so that each one knows I am waaaaay above them in the pecking order. I do not want them afraid of me because a fearful horse is more dangerous than a pushy one. I want their respect and attention 100% of the time.

Horses NEED that strong herd structure. They are far more confident and are about 1000 times easier to get along with when you are their undisputed leader. If you are not the strong, decisive leader that a horse needs, they are lost. They don't know what to do, but you can bet it will be wrong.

Very dominant pushy horses that are 'lead horse types' in a herd will step right up and take over. They will have a handler trained in no time at all. Less dominant horse are just lost without a strong leader and become frightful, fearful quivering wrecks. They are afraid of their own shadow and won't go anywhere they do not have to go.

Most horses fall somewhere in between. But, they all get very badly spoiled if they do not have a confident leader that they can put their faith in. Yours is in the process of taking over your relationship with her. She is becoming the boss and you the fearful submissive herd member that is way down the pecking order.

I hope this puts it all in perspective. Novice horse owners have a tendency to take it personal. I hear questions like "Why did she want to hurt me?" or "I have only been nice to her. I just can't understand why she would do this to me?" That is just not how they think. They like their other herd mates, too, but they will kick the crap out of one if they think it will get them a little farther up the pecking order. Two horses may be best of buddies and groom each other one time and may fight tooth and nail the next to see who gets the first feed tub. This is the way herd dynamics work. You need to have the resolve to be the strong herd leader that your horse needs to feel safe and happy.

I will try to get back to my computer tomorrow and lay out a plan of action that will work for a novice owner.

I can tell you that more time is not going to help. It will take positive action on your part to be seen as the strong herd leader she needs. When you understand herd dynamics better, you will find that trust comes from respect. The more a horse respects your position as herd leader, the more they trust you and anything you want to do.
 
#11 ·
To simply answer your question -- Of course she will kick you.
I literally laughed out loud when I read that line. It's true!

Whether it be because of horse behavior or an accident, you will more than likely get hit at some point, just like you'll more than likely fall off once in a while-- It comes with the risk of owning an animal that, even when trained, has a mind of it's own. Just keep on loving her and keep on establishing who's in control.
 
#6 ·
The above lenthy explanation is true with regard to horse behavior. I don't know what motivated the horse to kick out. Going onto the float it was fear and a desire to run away from a scary situation. It sounds like from what you have described that the mare is not of a mean demeanor. So, it's a wonder why she kicked when the girl was mouting.
In any case , if that happens again, you must immediately react. If you are really close, whack her as close to where she kicked as possible, and don't mince words; make an impression!
Or, take the lead rope and immediately mover her around you in a circle briskly and with authority. She needs to have YOU immediately put her back down in the place below you where she started out.

On the other hand, most horses don't kick without some kind of warning. That's why when I am handling my horse I try to keep his face in my peripheral vision as much as possible. As a hroseman/woman you will learn to have visual and sensory feelers out around you at all times. You may be focussed on caressing some part of the body or examing a bump or lump or lifting a hoof, but you never give all your focus to that. YOu keep your perifpheral vision and your ESP sensors ON the horse. You stay aware of how the horse is reacting. Horse broadcast their feelings loud and clear, and if they are thinking of kicking, or biting, you can usually (and I say USUALLY, not always) see it flicker across their faces before they act on that thought. So, keep reading your mare's face as you work on her. Work toward her rear, and don't creep like you are sneaking. That only makes a horse worried. Go around behind her, so close that your arm in on her bum and her tail passes right under your arm pit. WATCh her as you do this and you may see her watching you, and see her head move as she has you in one eye, then you pass into the other eye. This is an important factor, being aware that you don't hang out in a horse's blind spot, but pass smoothly from one eye to the other.
 
#7 ·
Cherie when I 1st read the title of this post that is exactly what I thought -will she kick? Of course she will.
OP if you ever get a chance, sit and watch a herd of horses interact (especially at feeding time) its very enlightening.
 
#9 ·
Today, 12:15 AM
#8 cfralic

I agree with the other posters, confidence is the key to working with horses.

Read more: http://www.horseforum.com/natural-h...beginner-d-will-she-kick-76008/#ixzz1BU7FgjRu
OK -- Now I am confused.

Where does someone that does not have a clue, suddenly get 'confidence'? Do they order it from Dover or some other E-store?

Confidence comes from knowing what you are doing; knowing that you are 'IN CHARGE'; knowing what to expect from the horse for each of your actions; and most of all, comes from knowing how a horse thinks and responds!

Confidence comes from competence. Competence comes from experience and knowledge.

You just do no go out the day after being kicked and say to yourself "Now, I am going back out there with confidence! I still do not know what to do and I do not know what to expect, but I have confidence I can do it -- whatever it is I need to do."

This is exactly why I tell a lot of people to go out and find a 'mentor' or befriend a competent, respected horseman in their area. You will learn more from osmosis than you can learn from DVDs or books that give you no feedback.
 
#10 ·
I'm a big believer in her dynamics and use that to my advantage. Watch eyes, ears, swish of a tail... All tells you how the horse is feeling and warning signs of things to come! And I agree with others on NOT letting her get away with any rude behavior with a swift consequence!
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#12 ·
Thank you all SO SO SO much for all the feedback and advice. I will come back later with some questions!

Cherie - I would LOVE a plan of action. Thank you so much for taking the time to put something together for me. I appreciate it enormously.

One question for now, if I want to follow Parelli Programs, doesn't smacking a horse go against that sort of natural horsemanship?

Thanks! :D
 
#13 ·
I am going to get yelled at for this one, as I know I am going to be a bit out of line....

I think Parelli can be a wonderful tool, but I wouldn't listen to every little thing they tell you to do. I have seen the Parelli's do some nasty things to horses. The Parelli's seem to think that people need to not ride their horses until they are "safe", but how is your horse going to be safe under saddle if you never ride it? It just isn't possible. Horses are BIG animals, they aren't some oversized stuffed animal. They will bite, kick, rear, buck.... I have seen people INSIST a horse tried to attack them, but it was the horse not understanding that humans aren't other horses; they can't play with us like they would another horse.

I am not trying to bash everyone who uses Parelli; as I said, it can be a useful tool, but I personally won't use it. My gelding is trained for level 1 and that is just for trusting and bonding, which I am fine with. But I still prefer Monty Roberts. Now THAT man is amazing. If you don't know who he is, google him. He is the one who created Join Up, one of my favorite NH tools.

If I were you, I would just learn to trust your horse and have an experienced horse person help you. Send your mare to a trainer who has experience with "problem" horses, but will still be gentle.

As for disciplining your horse.... Think of it more as correcting a behavior at is not acceptable. Until your establish that YOU are the head of the herd, your mare could very easily start to pick on you. And even after that your mare will have moments where she challenges your authority. Horses are big animals with minds of their own. I am really glad that you are asking for advice. There is a lot of good advice on this forum!

Sorry if I offended anyone, as I said, I was probably a bit out of line. I just wanted to state my opinion on the matter. Good luck!!
 
#14 ·
Well, after seeing a thread about Monty on here, I kind of look like an ***... xD I know nothing about NH really, just used a few different training tips. Si forget anything I said that is incorrect (though I stand by my opinion about the Parelli's). Sorry for double posting everyone, just wanted to say sorry for my ignorance. :wink:
 
#16 · (Edited)
Ok I'll try and answer all of your questions.

So you noticed her relax when brushing. Good thing! As I said, keep close to her body, legs, butt. If she were to try and kick, you would be bumped and not actually struck. Continue to brush, rub, scratch her back there.

You are seriously not going to get results if you do not discipline her!! I said that herd dynamics is very important information and knowing how a horse communicates. Its not "oh hun stop or even a sharp stop". If you watch horses in a herd, what happens if a horse gets to close to another horse? Its a look, ears pin back, tail swishes, and if that doesn't work, last resort is to bite!

The same goes for Natural Horsemanship. There needs to be a clear warning, before the bite. Hitting your horse to them is NOTHING compared to the kicks or chunks taken out of them for not listening in the herd!

You will get more results by quickly correcting her than letting it slide. If you correct her make sure you have a lead and halter on so she can't get away. Also, I use a crop, that is my bite. But because you don't want her afraid of your tools, only when training, not in a correction (bite, kick at you), you rub her with the whip, crop.

I think you should watch Clinton Andersons dvds. You can take a lot of different training techniques from different trainers and use them when necessary. Let me know if you have more questions. Good luck and stay safe!
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#17 ·
So what should I do? I don't want to smack or hit her at all. I thought the natural horsemanship program is a way to eliminate physical discipline?

Read more: http://www.horseforum.com/natural-horsemanship/absolute-beginner-d-will-she-kick-76008/page2/#ixzz1BawcN8Im
I do not know who told you that when using 'Natural Horsemanship', you eliminate all discipline. Natural Horsemanship means that you use a horse's 'natural hard-wired instincts' to teach it acceptable from non-acceptable behavior. IF you do not interrupt unwanted behaviors before they become something that the horse thinks you accept, then you are stuck using negative reinforcement to break that cycle. They establish bad behaviors very quickly and then many of them will fight tooth and nail for the right to continue that unwanted behavior.

Have you ever watched herd dynamics? That is what I tried to explain before. The lead horse is the boss. If a horse that is lower on the pecking order tries to get the first feed tub away from the lead horse, that horse will not only be chased away from the feed tub, it will be bit hard (like have a hunk of hide removed) and may have its ribs kicked hard. If a low horse on the pecking order physically challenges or threatens the lead horse, (like laying its ears back or baring its teeth), it will be punished so severely that it will be bit, kicked, chased completely out of the herd and may not be let back in the herd for a week. This is 'natural horsemanship' as horses dish it out. Horses even paw and kick each other when they play. They are not made of china. If you do not want to ever be in a position where you SHOULD spank one, you need to raise cats or get a dog for a pet or get SO GOOD at handling horses that you NEVER let one make a mistake. Horses, especially ones that have been allowed to develop bad behaviors, are going to need to be straightened out. That may include an occasional spanking to keep a 1200# animal with hard, sharp hooves from breaking a person's leg or killing them with a kick to their head. IT HAPPENS!

When I train a horse that has not been messed up, I usually NEVER have to use a whip or a spur or any physical discipline. When I get in one that is already spoiled (yes, yours is now spoiled), well, then it depends how easily the horse is willing to give up the behavior. I never advocate 'beating' a horse, I never want anyone to strike a horse in anger because they will not use good judgment and I never want anyone to strike a horse's head or face. One never wants to injure a horse, but a 130 # person disciplining a 1200# horse too severely is remote at best. If a person knows what they are doing and knows how to 'read' horse intentions and behavior, they can interrupt any bad 'thoughts' and 'intentions' a horse has before they become bad deeds. If caught in time, the only discipline a horse usually needs is to speak harshly to it (all of mine are "Ah!" broke) or give it a jerk on the lead-rope and/or back it up 8 or 10 steps. That is all it takes for a good-minded horse to accept that it shouldn't challenge your authority -- ever.

The other voice command I use is a "Smooch!" I use it any time I want a horse to move its feet. I use it when I ask a horse to step forward, back or move over. Then I reinforce it if necessary with a 'tap' on the shoulder or chest or a bump on the nose with the lead-rope. This tap or bump is not a form of discipline. It is only to reinforce a request and is only done hard enough to irritate a horse and make it move away from the pressure. The instant the horse responds properly, you stop putting any pressure on it. They will continue to respond by doing whatever they did that resulted in all pressure being removed. A smooch is then all that is needed to have a horse move lightly the direction indicated by the handler. To strike or jerk a horse hard to reinforce a request only makes one over-react and puts it in a reactive mode.

You can try establishing ordinary ground manners. This is best done by asking a horse to back up and move its shoulder over and away from you -- both directions. In other words, you push and smooch and it moves. I do not like running one around in circles. I want them to 'yield' -- to back up and move over -- not think they can run away from being responsive. I like moving a shoulder over much better than I like moving a hip over. Again, it takes more responsiveness from a horse.

If you do this and the horse still wants to lay its ears back, move its hip toward you or threatens you in any way, then it is going to take more discipline. I will cover that next time.
 
#20 ·
Sorry, but I just don't get who decided that natural horsemanship meant that no physical contact or discipline takes place. Horses use it all the time. Suppose your horse was out in a herd with a horse who was more dominant than her. Say your horse decides she wants to eat the same flake of hay as the dominant horse. The dominant horse will not like that. First she will pin her ears back at your horse. If your horse does not move, she will spin her head around and pretend to bite her. If she still doesn't move away, the dominant horse will kick her into next week. Doesn't that sound like contact based discipline to you?

Nobody is saying to beat the crap out of your horse, but you need to answer as loudly as necessary in order to make the proper corrections, or you are going to have a horse that walks all over you. I personally don't hit anywhere on the head, but if my horse tries to play nip at me, yeah, he gets a quick sharp flick on his neck. If he tries it again, I shake his lead rope until he backs up a good 5'. Corrections need to be quick, but no necessarily rough. Horses play bite and kick all the time, but if you watch, you'll notice they never make any contact. The name of the game is, "I'm above you and therefore quicker than you, and I could have landed that play kick if I had wanted to do so". They horse around as the saying goes, and then only seconds later, they're all standing around again like nothing happened. It all is very immediate and short lived. As long as your reactions are quick so they are directly related to what the horse did, they will be effective. As John Lyons said, if your horse does something unacceptable, you have 3 seconds to make his life miserable. Hope this helps.
 
#22 ·
Agreed, really enjoying Cherie's posts!

I have been around horses for quite some time now, my rule of thumb when handling my horse is that MY feet don't have to move - hers do. This is a really simple concept but possibly quite scary to a newbie. Just sit down and have a think about your interactions with your horse, think about how many times YOU have moved out of HER way. That, right there, has to stop. Now think about those times and ask yourself what you could have done to make her move away from you rather than the other way around. This is what you need to be learning about. I am willing to bet that Cherie will have some sound advice and I would listen to her if I was you.

I would be willing to bet that you have been trying to be very quiet around the horse as well, don't make any sudden movements etc. The down side of that is that you will probably be making yourself seem smaller than you are. First thing to change is body language, you want to be as BIG as you can be, tall, head up, shoulders very straight, move big and if she gets startled by you, all the better, it's a start as she will be seeing you as intimidating rather than a doormat. Just a thought, I don't what you are like around the horse, just thought I would give you a starting point.
 
#23 ·
That is a good point Kiwigirl. I HAVE been quiet and gentle around her!!! That all stops now. :D

I will look back and laugh at all this one day.

I went and had a couple of hours with Parelli expert on Sunday. Learnt HEAPS! It was fantastic. Still a million miles to go but I have taken the first few steps. :D
 
#24 ·
I have continued with the Parelli stuff and stepped up my authority with her.

I can move her backwards, front end around, sideways and back end around with little pressure.

I can rub the crop and carrot stick all over her. And flick the rope gently all over her and around her legs.

I can move her back end around (both ways) by mimicking as if I am going in for the bite (like another horse in a herd), she moves it round pretty quick!

I spent two hours the other day with a lady who has several horses and has owned and trained many more over the years. Shas has followed Parelli for 16 years until a few years ago when things changed and she branched off. She still recommends a lot of their ground work for establishing that bond with her.

Cherie - if you ever get the chance, I would love a plan of action. Your experience is incredible.

So far so good! Thanks everyone. :D
 
#25 ·
Sorry I disappeared. My 86 year old step-dad is almost 'gone' and I went to Colorado to visit him and my half-sister. I was gone 10 days and came back to more snow in Southern Oklahoma that in the Colorado mountains.

Okay -- back to a plan of action. I start out every horse by 'pushing them around'. I do not knock to slap them around but I darn sure push them around. As I said before, I particularly like to push a horse's shoulder / front end over and away from me. I know a lot of people like to make a horse move its hind end (called 'disengaging the hind quarters'.) I am not such a fan of that. It is too easy and not meaningful enough. It is too easy in that while it is quite a simple matter for a person to move a horse's hind end over, the horse can also do this to disrespect a person. If you want a horse to stand still and NOT move away like for grooming and saddleing, it is very easy for one to just step its hind end away just like you taught it to. So, I opt for the more difficult move (and one a horse cannot use against a handler quite as easily). I prefer to make a horse step its shoulder over 3 or 4 steps. I will switch sides and do it just as much or even more from the horse's off side. I find that getting a horse very 'light' and willing to move its shoulders from the ground makes it easier to get the same moves and respect from its back.

Then, I back a horse up from the ground -- a lot. It is a very submissive move to be deliberately backed up on the ground. I now only have two stallions. I have had as many as 10. No matter how well-mannered a stallion is (one of the ones I have now I have shown quite a bit) I ALWAYS back a stallion up several steps EVERY time I put a halter on one. As stallions tend to be very dominant individuals, I like to remind them every time I handle them that I am 'in charge'.

Once a horse has gotten spoiled enough to kick, bite or paw a handler, they may need more convincing that you are the boss of your herd of two. They may need a hard jerk or two on a lead-rope or -- heaven forbid -- a spanking or two. I, personally, am not a big fan of chain lead-shanks. I think they get more beginners in trouble than if they left them alone and I don't really need one. So, I just use a stiff 'cowboy style' rope halter. I know they look pretty 'tacky' in an 'English' barn, but I like them better than a chain. Just personal preference, I suppose. If a horse 'bows up' at me or just refuses to back up or move over (not at all unusual with a really dominant, spoiled horse), I will spank the horse on the chest or shoulder with a dressage whip or a twisted, folded up piece of baling wire. When I was training full time for the public, I kept a piece of folded up and twisted baling wire in my back pocket. It might stay there (like the hoof pick that is always in my other back pocket) for weeks at a time without ever needing it, but if a horse bulled up and refused to move-- or worse yet, swung its butt or tried to push its shoulder into me -- it was right handy where I could remind him who moved their feet first and where they were going to move them. Now, that I do not handle other people's spoiled horses very often and only handle my own (that have never had a chance to misbehave), I do not need to be as prepared. Like I said before, it is much easier to start them right in their relationship with you and never let them even think for a minute that they might be the dominant one in your pair than to fix a broken relationship with them.

Everyone should really take this to heart: Never peck or tap on a misbehaving horse. Spank it good and spank it more than is needed to just barely get the job done. You want it to NOT repeat the behavior and NOT try you again. If you are only going to just 'peck' on a horse, you are better not touching it at all. It only makes one madder and only makes one worse. Thrash it out good enough that it knows better than to try kicking or biting or whatever again and then you only have to do it once. Then and only then is it effective to spank a horse. If you spank one and it lays its ears back and it makes it mad, you did not do it harshly enough to make it effective and you only made the situation worse. This is how ALL of the really mean, vicious horses I have encountered got that way. Someone 'pecked' on them only hard enough to make them meaner.

Now, before all of you 'horsie huggers' think I am a mean old lady that is abusing horses and NOT using 'Natural Horsemanship', I maintain that I AM USING Natural Horsemanship and YOU ARE NOT! I am teaching a horse a lesson it will remember and respect just like the lead horse in a herd teaches it -- with great discomfort and misery -- I hope! Then, that lesson will not have to be repeated. If you have to repeatedly discipline a horse, then you are not doing it effectively enough to be doing it right. Done correctly --- It only takes once or twice at the most.
 
#27 ·
GreenTreeFrog, I know that you have been on the Parelli thread on NH section of training Cheries post really highlights the main thing you have to be careful of when dealing with Parelli.

To quote Cherie:

Everyone should really take this to heart: Never peck or tap on a misbehaving horse. Spank it good and spank it more than is needed to just barely get the job done. You want it to NOT repeat the behavior and NOT try you again. If you are only going to just 'peck' on a horse, you are better not touching it at all. It only makes one madder and only makes one worse. Thrash it out good enough that it knows better than to try kicking or biting or whatever again and then you only have to do it once. Then and only then is it effective to spank a horse. If you spank one and it lays its ears back and it makes it mad, you did not do it harshly enough to make it effective and you only made the situation worse. This is how ALL of the really mean, vicious horses I have encountered got that way. Someone 'pecked' on them only hard enough to make them meaner.

This paragraph defines many Parelli devotees relationship with their horses. Just be careful that your games don't become pointless pecking. The most important part when dealing with a horse is knowing when to STOP what your doing.

Sorry for dragging the Parelli thread into yours, I am genuinely trying to be helpful if I am not being helpful then feel free to ignore me :wink:.
 
#28 ·
Thank you Kiwigirl.

You are absolutely correct about many of the Parelli disciples. I help many beginners and 4-H type people find suitable horses. I have gotten to where I will not even go look at a horse that is advertised as a 'Parelli horse'. Most of them I have gone and looked at ride terrible and are so 'ill' and just plain mad at everybody from the endless hours of pointless pecking and game playing that instead of developing a good relationship with their owner they have just plain learned to hate people. I know that is not what the program is designed to do, but the way many people practice it, that is what they get. That is why a mentor --- a real live one-on-one person to work with, gives you 'feedback' and tells you what you are not doing right. No tape or DVD or memories of a 'clinic' or 'demonstraton' can do that. You can screw it up and no one is there to tell you that you are doing this or that wrong. You are just free to keep screwing it up until you have a really 'ill' horse that is beyond repair.
 
#29 ·
Thank you thank you Cherie. I am REALLY grateful for the time you took to write out the advice.

I will take it onboard and follow it. It sounds like great, common sense advice.

I have engaged the services of an NH instructor to work alongside my own research and education on working with horses.

Again, thank you.
 
#32 ·
Of course, my horses know how to move their hind ends over!!! I control EVERY step they take -- or that is my goal.

What I said is that I do not use a disengagement of their hind quarters as a reprimand or rebuke -- unless -- of course, the horse dares to move it hind end toward me. I do something much more meaningful such as making a horse move its shoulders over or back it up in a very controlled manner.

I have encountered so many horses that either do some little thing and immediately swing their hind quarters away from a handler from having this maneuver asked for so often that it has lost all correct meaning. These same horses can also be very difficult to get good shoulder movement from.

LIKE I SAID, making a horse move its hind quarters is so easy that many people over-do it and then have difficulty getting a horse to keep its hind end still when you do NOT want it to move. They move away whenever you actually want them to hold their ground and stand still.

The same is true when you frequently make one run around in circles for doing something wrong. It is way too easy for the horse to take off and run around a handler when it is even thinking about doing something it knows it shouldn't. I've had to correct several of these horses for people when the horse had learned to bolt and jerk away after having a handler that ran it around (especially to the left) every time it did something wrong.
 
#33 ·
..What I said is that I do not use a disengagement of their hind quarters as a reprimand or rebuke ...

LIKE I SAID, making a horse move its hind quarters is so easy that many people over-do it...
I'm sorry. For some reason I didn't see those in your previous post. It just sounded like you didn't like using that at all. Yes, if you use it as a reprimand, it would lose meaning and cause more problems. Also, if asking incorrectly would have the same bad results.
 
#34 ·
Adding a bit to the flood of good advice about discipline:

If it helps, think about the progression in pressure that you use to teach something to a horse for the first time (disengage the hindquarters, for example, since it is a fairly easy movement for a horse to get)

You have a young horse who has never had to move away from pressure before. You begin by focusing your energy on the hindquarters (that "stalking" or "predator" stance that was mentioned earlier in the thread) that is level one of pressure - the least you can possibly put on the horse. If the horse does not respond (which they predictably won't at first) you move towards their back end, maintaining that energy (level two pressure). Level three is putting your hand out towards the horse, level four is swinging a rope slowly, level five is swinging it quickly, six is smacking said rope on the ground or cracking it, etc.

If your horse is still standing dead still when you are wildly swinging a rope around in the air you HAVE to continue to up the pressure, this means *gasp* making contact between rope/whip/whatever and horse. You increase this pressure until the horse moves and then you stop immediately. Horses are good at making connections between "the human stared at my butt, then things got more uncomfortable from there, then I moved and everything was comfy again" eventually all you have to do is give a hard look at your horse's back end and they will move it away from you.

On a quick side note - it is also important to teach your horse when you are NOT asking them to move away. With mine, a firm "woah" will stop her from moving if I approach her from behind and want her to stand still, and if I am touching her (passively) she stays put. Otherwise her head is facing me all the time. Failure to do this could result in a horse whose back end you can't get to, as they disengage it whenever you try and move towards it (to pick up feet or adjust a saddle, for example)


Now - that is training. If our hypothetical horse had moved it's hindquarters TOWARDs you when you start applying pressure, that pressure gets upped to level X pretty darn quick as they are doing something disrespectful/the opposite of what you want.

The important thing to remember here is that all horses are individuals with different thresholds for pressure from people. Go from level one to level six with the wrong horse and they will bolt (or kick if they feel trapped) using less pressure than you need will be ineffective and result in bad communication between you and the horse.

To apply this idea to another example, let's look at a horse that rubs its head on its owner. (yes, its very adorable and your horsey loves you but you are not a wooden post, darn it!)

Lots of horses check in with you by wiggling lips on your arm or resting their chin near you. I am fine with this as long as it does not effect my posture or make me move.

My response, however, to a horse lightly pushing my arm with its nose is going to be a LOT different that one who rams my shoulder with its whole head. The first one is going to get a quiet elbow shake, while the other is going to be faced with me waving my arms and backing them up. Again, however, it depends on the horse.

It is probably better to overdo a correction that be too soft on your horse - but you want to make sure you're not completely loosing all training value by frightening your horse and loosing their focus.

This is where desensitization comes in. I can crack whips and swing ropes and leap around like a crazy person, but if I am not focusing my energy on my horse she acts as if nothing is happening. As soon as I do those things with my focus on the horse, she reacts.

Wow. That turned out WAY longer than I expected it too - hopefully it makes sense. NH is not about treating your horse like a delicate flower, its about treating them like a horse in a way they understand and respect.
 
#35 ·
Get another horse or maybe a TRAINER. No reason should a beginner just want a horse and put themselves in a situation where they can get hurt.
 
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