Absolute Beginner! :D Will she kick me?? - Page 4
 
 

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Absolute Beginner! :D Will she kick me??

This is a discussion on Absolute Beginner! :D Will she kick me?? within the Natural Horsemanship forums, part of the Training Horses category
  • Horse moves rear end to me
  • Why do people whip a horse's butt rear end

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    02-11-2011, 08:24 AM
  #31
Green Broke
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cherie    
...I know a lot of people like to make a horse move its hind end (called 'disengaging the hind quarters'.) I am not such a fan of that. It is too easy and not meaningful enough. It is too easy in that while it is quite a simple matter for a person to move a horse's hind end over, the horse can also do this to disrespect a person. If you want a horse to stand still and NOT move away like for grooming and saddleing, it is very easy for one to just step its hind end away just like you taught it to...
I agree with most of your post except this part. I want to be able to have control of every part of the horse. If you don't teach the horse how to give to pressure on the rear end, you can't control it. How do you teach them to side pass if they don't know how to move their butt over when you ask for it? Most of the time when saddling a horse they are tied. If they are to move away, they can only move their rear. It's not because you taught them this. You just haven't really taught them to stand still or sacked them out very well. Also, how is it disrespectful if a horse moves it's hind end away? They are feeling pressure from you or your body language and giving to that pressure. If they move it towards you, then yes that can be disrespectful. Let's say you are saddling or grooming your horse and they're up against a wall. You must walk in front of your horse where they're tied and move their shoulder over to get to the other side? I think it's easier to go behind them and tap their butt for them to move over. I guess to each their own.
     
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    02-11-2011, 10:07 AM
  #32
Super Moderator
Of course, my horses know how to move their hind ends over!!! I control EVERY step they take -- or that is my goal.

What I said is that I do not use a disengagement of their hind quarters as a reprimand or rebuke -- unless -- of course, the horse dares to move it hind end toward me. I do something much more meaningful such as making a horse move its shoulders over or back it up in a very controlled manner.

I have encountered so many horses that either do some little thing and immediately swing their hind quarters away from a handler from having this maneuver asked for so often that it has lost all correct meaning. These same horses can also be very difficult to get good shoulder movement from.

LIKE I SAID, making a horse move its hind quarters is so easy that many people over-do it and then have difficulty getting a horse to keep its hind end still when you do NOT want it to move. They move away whenever you actually want them to hold their ground and stand still.

The same is true when you frequently make one run around in circles for doing something wrong. It is way too easy for the horse to take off and run around a handler when it is even thinking about doing something it knows it shouldn't. I've had to correct several of these horses for people when the horse had learned to bolt and jerk away after having a handler that ran it around (especially to the left) every time it did something wrong.
     
    02-11-2011, 11:31 AM
  #33
Green Broke
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cherie    
..What I said is that I do not use a disengagement of their hind quarters as a reprimand or rebuke ...

LIKE I SAID, making a horse move its hind quarters is so easy that many people over-do it...
I'm sorry. For some reason I didn't see those in your previous post. It just sounded like you didn't like using that at all. Yes, if you use it as a reprimand, it would lose meaning and cause more problems. Also, if asking incorrectly would have the same bad results.
     
    02-20-2011, 07:41 PM
  #34
Foal
Adding a bit to the flood of good advice about discipline:

If it helps, think about the progression in pressure that you use to teach something to a horse for the first time (disengage the hindquarters, for example, since it is a fairly easy movement for a horse to get)

You have a young horse who has never had to move away from pressure before. You begin by focusing your energy on the hindquarters (that "stalking" or "predator" stance that was mentioned earlier in the thread) that is level one of pressure - the least you can possibly put on the horse. If the horse does not respond (which they predictably won't at first) you move towards their back end, maintaining that energy (level two pressure). Level three is putting your hand out towards the horse, level four is swinging a rope slowly, level five is swinging it quickly, six is smacking said rope on the ground or cracking it, etc.

If your horse is still standing dead still when you are wildly swinging a rope around in the air you HAVE to continue to up the pressure, this means *gasp* making contact between rope/whip/whatever and horse. You increase this pressure until the horse moves and then you stop immediately. Horses are good at making connections between "the human stared at my butt, then things got more uncomfortable from there, then I moved and everything was comfy again" eventually all you have to do is give a hard look at your horse's back end and they will move it away from you.

On a quick side note - it is also important to teach your horse when you are NOT asking them to move away. With mine, a firm "woah" will stop her from moving if I approach her from behind and want her to stand still, and if I am touching her (passively) she stays put. Otherwise her head is facing me all the time. Failure to do this could result in a horse whose back end you can't get to, as they disengage it whenever you try and move towards it (to pick up feet or adjust a saddle, for example)


Now - that is training. If our hypothetical horse had moved it's hindquarters TOWARDs you when you start applying pressure, that pressure gets upped to level X pretty darn quick as they are doing something disrespectful/the opposite of what you want.

The important thing to remember here is that all horses are individuals with different thresholds for pressure from people. Go from level one to level six with the wrong horse and they will bolt (or kick if they feel trapped) using less pressure than you need will be ineffective and result in bad communication between you and the horse.

To apply this idea to another example, let's look at a horse that rubs its head on its owner. (yes, its very adorable and your horsey loves you but you are not a wooden post, darn it!)

Lots of horses check in with you by wiggling lips on your arm or resting their chin near you. I am fine with this as long as it does not effect my posture or make me move.

My response, however, to a horse lightly pushing my arm with its nose is going to be a LOT different that one who rams my shoulder with its whole head. The first one is going to get a quiet elbow shake, while the other is going to be faced with me waving my arms and backing them up. Again, however, it depends on the horse.

It is probably better to overdo a correction that be too soft on your horse - but you want to make sure you're not completely loosing all training value by frightening your horse and loosing their focus.

This is where desensitization comes in. I can crack whips and swing ropes and leap around like a crazy person, but if I am not focusing my energy on my horse she acts as if nothing is happening. As soon as I do those things with my focus on the horse, she reacts.

Wow. That turned out WAY longer than I expected it too - hopefully it makes sense. NH is not about treating your horse like a delicate flower, its about treating them like a horse in a way they understand and respect.
     
    02-20-2011, 08:08 PM
  #35
Banned
Get another horse or maybe a TRAINER. No reason should a beginner just want a horse and put themselves in a situation where they can get hurt.
     
    02-21-2011, 04:54 AM
  #36
Trained
I agree with most of the above posts. I haven't read all the thread. Just please be careful. It DOES hurt to get kicked. I have been kicked in the hand, the hip and the face, all 3 times were my fault (Except for the hip, it was her instint to run and kick out). But please do be careful.
     
    02-21-2011, 05:27 AM
  #37
Foal
Thank you fellow horse people! It is all good so far. She hasn't kicked me, doing a fair bit of gorund work. Had the farrier come do her feet on Saturday and she didn't kick him so that also helped my confidence in seeing her handled and how she handled it all.

We are certainly developing a trust and bond. I can push her away from something, she generally yields to me but more often backwards, even when I am trying to get her front end around. So working on the front end yield.

She is still a bit bargy ie she will walk right near me and I move back so she doesn't walk on me. I know this needs to change... I am working on it.

I have a horse float in the yard at the moment and work with her everyday trying to get her comfortable with floating. She spooks quite a bit. But we are getting there. Her love of hay overrides her fear of the float! She only comes near it when I am in it (I am thinking she is trusting me!), I chat to her and give her a scratch and rub when she has come in and then backed out. I wait until she is out before I get too close as she is likely to spook and do the bolt. Safety first!

Any float tips?

The NH trainers I have engaged have suggested I go out to their place for a look around, and then consider boarding Elly there for a few days. The do a few block lessons over those days, as they have the setup we can utilise (round pens, other horses etc). Then come home with her and work on what we learn for a while. Does this sound like a good idea?

Thank you all again - I really appreciate the help.
     
    02-21-2011, 09:28 AM
  #38
Foal
Wow, this has all been such great information for me also, thank you all!!
     
    03-18-2011, 03:43 PM
  #39
Foal
Some horses scare me

I don't know why but for some reason I am scared of some horses for NO REASON. There doesn't seem to be a certian type, color, or size that makes me scared.... I am just scared for no reason.
When this happens to me... I just stay away from that horse. We have 5 so of the 5 I am scared of only 1. She is a rescue so as soon as she puts on weight and sheds she will be sold.
If you can't get over your fear you might want to do the same.
     
    03-23-2011, 07:50 AM
  #40
Trained
Quote:
Originally Posted by GreenTreeFrog    
Thank you fellow horse people! It is all good so far. She hasn't kicked me, doing a fair bit of gorund work. Had the farrier come do her feet on Saturday and she didn't kick him so that also helped my confidence in seeing her handled and how she handled it all.

We are certainly developing a trust and bond. I can push her away from something, she generally yields to me but more often backwards, even when I am trying to get her front end around. So working on the front end yield.

She is still a bit bargy ie she will walk right near me and I move back so she doesn't walk on me. I know this needs to change... I am working on it.

I have a horse float in the yard at the moment and work with her everyday trying to get her comfortable with floating. She spooks quite a bit. But we are getting there. Her love of hay overrides her fear of the float! She only comes near it when I am in it (I am thinking she is trusting me!), I chat to her and give her a scratch and rub when she has come in and then backed out. I wait until she is out before I get too close as she is likely to spook and do the bolt. Safety first!

Any float tips?

The NH trainers I have engaged have suggested I go out to their place for a look around, and then consider boarding Elly there for a few days. The do a few block lessons over those days, as they have the setup we can utilise (round pens, other horses etc). Then come home with her and work on what we learn for a while. Does this sound like a good idea?

Thank you all again - I really appreciate the help.

That sounds like a very good idea to go to the trainers and work on you and the horse !
telly likes this.
     

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