Anybody else here watching CA's TB series? - Page 3
 
 

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Anybody else here watching CA's TB series?

This is a discussion on Anybody else here watching CA's TB series? within the Natural Horsemanship forums, part of the Training Horses category
  • Tricky warrier
  • Tricky horses training

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    09-29-2011, 08:23 PM
  #21
Super Moderator
I don't call what he does 'abuse' at all. It causes no 'injury'. 'Discomfort' to a horse can be any contact you make with him. Any horse would prefer 'no contact' and that is exactly what he uses for a reward for the correct and wanted behavior. Looks like sound training techniques to me.
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    10-13-2011, 05:32 PM
  #22
Trained
On this week's show "Tricky Warrior" performed 3 flying lead changes on a slack rein while cantering a diagonal line from corner to corner in the arena. Definitely I see him as an Eventing Candidate, if his legs hold up for jumping. Like I said, I'm watching and analyzing. I still don't care for the constant flexing. It seems as if he's instilling obedience with it. Gotta chew over that one.
I DO like that CA has waited to use 2 reins on this horse, since race horses DO learn to lean on the bit.
     
    10-13-2011, 05:45 PM
  #23
Weanling
Pulling the neck side to side, does cause the horse discomfort.....LET ME DO IT TO YOU!!!!!!!
     
    10-13-2011, 06:08 PM
  #24
Started
Quote:
Originally Posted by spirithorse8    
Pulling the neck side to side, does cause the horse discomfort.....LET ME DO IT TO YOU!!!!!!!
Um... Speaking as one who has done a lot of CA-type work with my horses in the past, I've got to say that (unless things have changed radically - I haven't seen CA's glorified info-mercial in a while) the lateral flexion exercise isn't "pulling the neck side to side." When I did it, it was take slack out of rein, hold, drop rein when the horse puts slack back into it. No pulling involved. Simply contact, hold, release. No pain, no real discomfort, any more so than applying leg for a leg yield.

Now, whether that exercise actually accomplishes anything constructive is another issue entirely. I've all but dropped it from my own personal routine. I did a little bit with Scout when I first got him, mainly to teach the ORS at the very beginning. If he hasn't been ridden in a while, I'll flex him once each way one time before we move off. Other than that, he doesn't flex CA style. His "flexion exercises" use his entire body. Isolating and manipulating the head alone just isn't going to biomechanically help the horse or prepare him for proper collection, as CA endlessly claims.

True lateral flexion uses the entire length of the body, employed in circles, serpentines, etc. THERE is the "key to vertical flexion" - not that overbent, false give BTV stuff I see so in so many NH trained horses (not just CA, but he's definitely in on it).
     
    10-13-2011, 08:16 PM
  #25
Trained
Well, I watched another episode. That horse is one smart cookie. Clinton was doing all that lateral flexion nonsense with him. Tricky beat him to it. Every time he was asked to come back to a halt, he would just turn his head right without being asked. He's definitely the type of horse you don't teach a dressage test to start to finish. At the end, he started teaching what he calls "vertical flexion". Ugh. I like the basic premise of letting the horse find the answer, but I found the question to be very loud. He took hold of both reins and held them until the horse gave to the pressure. Problem was he took a lot of rein. The horse had to pretty much touch his chin to his chest to get the release. I can see this quickly backfiring by Tricky sucking behind the contact. I'll be curious to see if Clinton can fix it an achieve real contact. My bet's on Tricky!
     
    10-13-2011, 11:20 PM
  #26
Super Moderator
He is a Western Trainer. He does not want a horse that hangs on the bit. He wants 'self carriage'.

What English riders see is a horse that is 'behind the bit'.

What Western riders see is an English horse that 'falls apart' without contact, leans on the bit and cannot carry itself. I have seen many high level Dressage riders with white knuckles.

I have ridden and shown both ways and have had quite a few horses that showed well both ways including a mare that I field hunted and qualified for the AQHA World Show in Reining and Hunter Hack -- all in the same year.

A lot of what the constant flexing accomplishes is that it puts a novice rider that has little skill in a place where they do not get hurt. Clinicians have found that few novice riders stick with any program long enough to become accomplished riders that can ride without a 'crutch' or a means to stay safe on a horse that they could not otherwise handle or ride. Teaching a horse to give instantly to one rein keeps the Dummies from getting killed.

He will come out of this demonstration with a method that Dummies can use to take a TB that would otherwise be WAAAAY over their heads and can stay safe on and may ride well enough to not get killed.

While PP keeps people on the ground for years to keep them safe, CA puts them on a horse they cannot ride and keeps them reasonably safe.

So, take it for what it is. Just like a REAL trainer or an accomplished rider does not need a round pen -- a real trainer and an accomplished rider do not need a One Rein Stop or endless lateral flexing to teach a horse everything it needs to know.

These are crutches that work for Dummies that buy horses that are way over their heads. It beats riding in a 60 foot round pen for a year and coming out of it with a mad horse that they still cannot ride.

I have conducted enough clinics that I know you have to teach the poor riders with spoiled horses that come much differently than you would teach an aspiring rider that wants to become competitive or wants to train professionally some day.

I hope this sheds some light on a subject that many criticize because they do not look at it in the light of a Clinician that is trying to get people on horses and keep them safe -- people that do not have much skill on horses that are not really suitable. Been there -- done that -- have the tee shirt to prove it.
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    10-17-2011, 06:23 PM
  #27
Trained
Thanks, Cherie. (DH knows that you are my new "BFF" from OK! Ha, ha) I started this thread in order to analyze CA's method. It's interesting to ME bc I am training 2 geldings from very different backgrounds. I know to create a different lesson plan for each of them--that's the former teacher in me talking.
I agree that his method keeps the human in charge. What do you think about long-lining and in-hand groundwork? Besides the tv trainers I have been reading up about this, and experimenting. I have only fully broken in one horse in the past, the rest where broken and I retrained them--QUITE a different cup of tea! Plus, I was never really happy with their backing, or their foot manners, and I have been addressing both with my young horses.
     
    01-01-2012, 11:09 AM
  #28
Yearling
I took Anderson's methods and adopted them to the individual horse. In one, the hindquarters yield did wonders for my horse who refused to stand at the mounting block. It took 15 minutes and more than a few repeats of the exercies but when the horse finally decided he didn't like the working, he quit moving off from the block. Another mare I was asked to work with refused to enter the gate into the infdoor arena unless it was 100% fully open and would run into her stall...definitely a claustrophobia issue. I worked her with the basic lunge method, got her comfortable with CA's sending method and was able to, in just a few sessions, get her to walk calmly into and out of her stall and enter the indoor arena with no more issues with a less than fully open gate. One thing I never liked with CA's lunge method was the fast turn and full out gait out of the turn on the lunge. I always brought the horse down to a walk, allowed a more calm turn and then send off at a slow trot. In short, I adjusted the method to work with the individual and managed to cure a horse who would constantly crowd and turn in front..ie, when normally leading, the horse would constantly walk ahead and then cut me off. We solved this with a lot of stopping and walking forward and the occasional very long distance backing. That particular horse got so good at staying in the proper location when leading I could take off the lead and walk in patterns and he would never leave that location.
     
    01-01-2012, 12:39 PM
  #29
Green Broke
Quote:
Originally Posted by tlkng1    
I took Anderson's methods and adopted them to the individual horse. In one, the hindquarters yield did wonders for my horse who refused to stand at the mounting block. It took 15 minutes and more than a few repeats of the exercies but when the horse finally decided he didn't like the working, he quit moving off from the block. Another mare I was asked to work with refused to enter the gate into the infdoor arena unless it was 100% fully open and would run into her stall...definitely a claustrophobia issue. I worked her with the basic lunge method, got her comfortable with CA's sending method and was able to, in just a few sessions, get her to walk calmly into and out of her stall and enter the indoor arena with no more issues with a less than fully open gate. One thing I never liked with CA's lunge method was the fast turn and full out gait out of the turn on the lunge. I always brought the horse down to a walk, allowed a more calm turn and then send off at a slow trot. In short, I adjusted the method to work with the individual and managed to cure a horse who would constantly crowd and turn in front..ie, when normally leading, the horse would constantly walk ahead and then cut me off. We solved this with a lot of stopping and walking forward and the occasional very long distance backing. That particular horse got so good at staying in the proper location when leading I could take off the lead and walk in patterns and he would never leave that location.
That is what I think is so important in choosing to "follow" any trainer's methods -- be open to looking at what does and what DOESN'T work rather than blindly following things even when they are not working "because that's how he/she says it has to be done".
     
    01-02-2012, 11:15 AM
  #30
7HL
Foal
Haven't watched CA in awhile but caught a recent episode with the TB on RFDTV. His EGO, it always seems to get in the way for me. After seeing at Road to the Horse last year ( I was down close and his round pen was the closest to me) I said I wasn't going to go out of my way to see him again. Clinton wants his mark on everything. I noticed he even freeze branded the TB on RFD with his logo. He appears to have a very canned approach to ALL horses. I wonder what he does with the ones it doesn't work on. I specially questioned purpose except for the fact Clinton feels he can, on him continually annoying the horse by rubbing his head with his training stick. He basically remarked he was going to continue it overe and over as well as repeat often untill the horse didn't react. To me he's going for brain dead horses, totally obedient.
     

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