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post #41 of 61 Old 12-08-2011, 02:11 PM
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Jack , I fear you have directed me a little beyond my comprehension level.
I have read your latest post once, but I shall have to read it again more slowly to better understand the points you are making.

I suspect I may have disappointed you today as I bought my mare a lunging surcingle for use with long reins. Without the help of it, I don't think I could persuade her ever to jump a small fence without a rider on her back. The height involved is minimal and represents no serious obstacle to her, but I am guessing she thinks I am mad to even ask her to make the jump.

We'll see what happens tomorrow.
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post #42 of 61 Old 12-08-2011, 02:44 PM
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Interesting dialogue.

Jackvance, I agree it would be almost impossible to work equipment-free without somehow keeping the horse from leaving (leaving being one of the things horses do best ) -- and so I think I'd consider the restraint of a round pen, say as "equipment." I've heard of a horse kept as a pet, but then, she wasn't ridden.

Barry, I would disagree when you say horses don't talk: I think they talk all the time! Not with their voices, but heavens, such expressions horses have. I never appreciated it until I got to live with my own. (They are both mares.) I think if you could "hear" them more closely, you wouldn't need any more straps or a surcingle etc. To get a horse over a small jump all you need to do is: put the rail on the ground, she walks over it, you reward; then you start raising it. You can do THAT without anything (if you can keep her from leaving) because, you know, horses actually like "pushing the buttons" that make humans spit out rewards. (My mare both think they are very clever at doing this.)
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post #43 of 61 Old 12-08-2011, 06:37 PM
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Lady Gadiva did a good job.
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post #44 of 61 Old 12-08-2011, 07:04 PM
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On the subject of you being a Preditor

Who is a Predator?
Because humans are, so capable one does not know the character of anyone until one has first-hand knowledge of and experiences that person. We humans have many social fronts that require various behaviors -
When humans are aware of being observed by other humans; our conduct is different than when unaware or unobserved, that is one of our unique human traits. I would think this human conduct could involve pretension from some sort, fear, ego humility, arrogance or whatever for whatever reason. Animals, on the other hand; do not vary their conduct when their peers are present, unless there is some sort of exchange going on which may initiate an action or movement on their part. Such as when two colts of equal herd status playing- they do not consider what the other horses are thinking about their conduct.
With modern technology, we present day humans are the greatest predators in the world. None can escape us. As humans, when we first meet, you will not know if I am herbivore or omnivore, however as we experience each other you will discover what I am.
The wild horse, being a prey animal, never having encountered a human, an elephant, or a great ape, must distrust and react with fight or flight to all three in a like manner. Otherwise, he would not have survived this long. If over time the horse consistently experiences any one of the three and they prove not to be a threat, the horse’s fight or flight syndrome will diminish. There is no training in this circumstance; it is unintentional learning.
We humans started as herbivores, we become omnivores, predators, first through discovery, exploring, and experience and eventually by choice. The elephant is herbivore, as is the great ape, which often walks upright, has eyes in the front of their heads, and neither are predators.

Initial encounter consistent in routine, and lacking in pain, anger, and/or other unpleasant effects, will diminish fear and the fight or flight syndrome. We use the aforementioned in the fundamental of good training, which lets the horse learn we mean him no harm.
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post #45 of 61 Old 12-08-2011, 07:25 PM
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If you lay a log on the ground and place a panel at the end to act as a wing and funnel her into the wing and have someone create a stimulus behind her (But do not instruct the to incite her unless she falters in her forward movement and then stimulate her only enough to keep her goin forward) she will go over that log. Do it several times and then raise the log about 2" and she will go over it again then raise it incrementally until you get to the ht. you choose to stop at.
A wild horse wold not hesitate to jump a log which others horses traveling directly in front of it had just jumped over.
Horse are very Apt.
By raising the log in increment you are familurizing the horse with that obsticale at the new; but very slight difference in HT. Eventually the horse will become desensetized to it and the HT. and will jump over it each time. However when the HT. becomes intimidating; the horse may refuse, stop, knock it down or not go into the wing.
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post #46 of 61 Old 12-09-2011, 06:08 AM
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Initial encounter consistent in routine, and lacking in pain, anger, and/or other unpleasant effects, will diminish fear and the fight or flight syndrome. We use the aforementioned in the fundamental of good training, which lets the horse learn we mean him no harm

Jack: I practice this philosophy.
But, my mare is a very alert mare - she really is the leader of the pack, She is never going to relax her guard until perhaps she feels the pangs of old age.

As for the jumps, well we are working on it. She'll jump 3ft 6 easily with a rider on her back. I haven't managed to persuade her to do even 1 foot without a rider. Mind you I have only just started to ask her. She thinks I am mad for asking to when she can so easily go round the obstacle.

As for poles on the ground - yes she steps over them nicely - but that little plastic fence 12 inches high - well, as I said, we are still working on it.
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post #47 of 61 Old 12-09-2011, 06:31 AM
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jackvance. the same thing that applies with your example of the horse going over the log can apply to human interaction. rather than height though, it is distance. that is how you can approach and train an unhandled horse with no equipment without a size restricted area.

and very good article. i agree very much with all of it.
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post #48 of 61 Old 12-09-2011, 02:29 PM
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You are correct in that analage. However....what I value most ...above all TIME. That being so; Understanding wild horse travel in small groups. Therefore one would be dealing with the incitement level of the most sensitive animal in the that animal's most sensitive survival instinct would incite the others to flee with it without question; although it is plausible. One would have to become one of or accepted by the herd, much like a bird which we often see sittiing on it's back. If One wanted to prove your application, one must be willing to dedicate their time to the project. The value received from proving something so timely; which is already accepted, would not prove prudent use of one's time or talent.

This does not imply that time is an important entity in training, but expedience is valued. Where as being timely in one's application of training and communication is very imoportant; but in haste. One may only move to the next lesson after the horse has shown it has learned the present lesson.
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post #49 of 61 Old 12-18-2011, 05:57 PM
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I am presently working with a horse, completely at liberty, either in the pasture or a paddock with two opening should he chose to leave. He has left many times, goes maybe a dozen strides then returns. He's with me because he choses to. When I set up obstacles he doesn't try to duck out but rather looks for my guidance to negotiate them. What I have found is the dreaded obstacles that many horses are fearful of, aren't a big deal when working with a horse in this manner. He knows I won't force him and let him deal with it as it best suits him.
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post #50 of 61 Old 12-19-2011, 12:30 AM
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I don't care what any of you say or how hard you argue your point.
I am leaving my clothes on when I train and that is final.

"The greatest strength is gentleness."
- Iroquois Proverb
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