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Attempted a Join up...

1K views 7 replies 5 participants last post by  loosie 
#1 ·
So I've had my boy for a few years. Unfortunately we live in the city, and the yard that we were had was treating the horses very poorly (paddock wire fence fell down and wasn't repaired untill a horse walked through it and tore itself to shreds, not enough food for horses, a horse (of 20 horses) colicking every week... etc). We moved him out to another place which is unfortunately an hour’s drive out, so riding takes about half the day. The result is that he only gets worked around twice a week and I don't see him often. But he is super well cared for and is happy.

Long story short, after a week of rain (I live in South Africa where we have been having major drought, we arn't prepared for rain XD) I went out to ride. The ground was horribly slippery, and I was riding horribly. Eventually I gave up and decided to do join up. I taught Aragon to lunge without a roundpen and just on the lungeline, but I hadn't lunged him in years and years (again because I see him so seldom). He's normally incredibly lazy, but I stuck him in the round pen, and he took off at a fast canter with a good few bucks thrown in for good measure. We changed direction a few times (Running in front of drive line, moving backwards. He did a mixture of turning with his butt to me and turning with his head to me). Despite him being super laid back and lazy, I was able to keep him going pretty fast with only a little use of body language and a leadrope. Eventually his inner ear locked onto me and stayed locked on, but I never saw any of the other signs. I chased him around for quite a while, and never saw any of the other signs. Eventually I decided to just see what would happen, and I invited him in. It took quite a few seconds, and then he came in. And kept on coming in. Pushing right over me (unlike him) and eventually stopping with his but in my face. I figured that I had also stopped him with the exit to the pen right on the other side of me, got a bit aggressive (I didn’t like that pushing past), and sent him out again. After a while, he started just stopping and staring facing me when I asked him to change directions (still ear locked on nothing else). I would send him off again. Eventually when he did this again, I turned and invited him in. Again, a few seconds wait, and he came in, and started pushing past me (this time the exit was not on the other side of me) and I immediately sent him out again. Eventually he would only trot and not canter (he was exhausted and had figured out that the leadrope I had barely hurt even if it did touch him), and I was exhausted. So again, when changing direction and he turned and just looked at me instead, I invited him in. This time he came up to me nicely. Not to my chest as I’ve seen others do, but just to the side. He then followed me around in various little circles with his head at the right place. So I went and called it done for the day.

My questions are:
1. What could I have done better? When I invited him in and he just pushed past me, should I have gotten really aggressive?
2. Is it fine if they aren’t showing all the other signs of join up beyond the ear lock on?
3. What should I do I ask him to change direction and he just stares at me and won’t move? I chased him out usually, but he wasn’t that responsive on it.
4. Is there even a point in doing a join up if I only see him around once a week? The entire process exhausted us both, and so at this rate it would replace any riding I do on him (which I enjoy and I’m not so sure about sacrificing that).
 
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#2 ·
There is no point in doing join up with a horse that has been handled and ridden
Join up, is a useful tool, when you first work a hrose that has had little human interaction, and beyond that, it is meaningless, esp done over and over again-becoming counter productive.
So many horses learn, through this incorrect application of the idea behind join up, that if they stop, face the handler and come in, work is over
Your horse is at the point where insteda of join up, he understands whoa, means stop, and keep facing the direction he was going, unless a second command tells him other wise
You can the either walk up to him, halter him, or ask him to go again, or ask him to reverse, either out or in, or you can tell him to come, which is permission to walk up to you.Not past you, not into your personal space, but respectfully stopping in front of you
 
#4 ·
Sorry guys still new to this forum, and I have no idea how to reply to several people at once. So i'm going to copy pasta my reply to you both.

First off thanks for the feedback! You both say that it is unnecessary (and it certainly is unnecessary in the sense that my horse is quite happy to be handled and ridden etc), but I got the idea from reading and watching the gazillion videos and articles on it from people who have been doing it with a horse that they have had for years and often live with as a way to help build up a trusting relationship. What is getting lost in tranlation here? You both say that it is unnecessary (and potentially problematic), and yet I see so much other information on how its a good thing to do with any horse and lots of people claiming that they always do it every time before they ride their horse? (and I'm not talking about youngster horses, I mean ones that have been owned for years).
 
#5 ·
You are seeing the big mis use/understanding of the intention of join up,AND ONE of my major beefs of NH, applied incorrectly, plus that endless round penning.
You might wish to do some pre ride checks on your horse, like having him yield hips, forehand, do circle each way a round you, back lightly in hand, just to see it the horse;s mind is with you, if he is in a willing working listening mode
He does not need to join up/accept you as some leader that can move his feet, and where that pressure is re moved when he comes in to you
Do you slowly introduce your saddle to your horse each time you ride him, or do you progress to the point where you know your horse is comfortable being saddled, and accepts it as routine?
 
#6 ·
^Hit the quote bottom to respond to an individual(s). Agree with what's been said about join up, it's the latest fad and while it may have a purpose it isn't as great as it's cut out to be and is often over/mis done, also pretty pointless at a certain point. And "people who have been doing it with a horse that they have had for years and often live with as a way to help build up a trusting relationship"... I sure hope after living with your horse for years you already have a trusting relationship!!!!

I know you've seen it done but quite frankly don't bother. If you want to lunge just lunge. I also don't think join up is supposed to be done on a line, doesn't that defeat the purpose? (and give a dangerous distraction of rope)

What's lost in translation is the "hype". Both the above commentors are very experienced horse people, as I'm sure you know there are a lot of "fads" and "must haves" in the horse world, most of which are unnecessary or overdone.

I'm sure you can think of other examples where everyone says you should do it but it's not the right thing to do!

Now, regardless of join up to answer your questions, and first of all if it's slippery I wouldn't be moving a horse quickly in circles!!:
1. What could I have done better? When your horse is clearly in a reactive state of mind that is usually the wrong time to do "thinking" work. So I would have stopped before you even began, either back off and do something very simple and none physical or let him burn off his physical energy then work on that. When I invited him in and he just pushed past me, should I have gotten really aggressive? I don't care about WHAT you are doing with a horse, I absolutely would kick horsie butt if they EVER thought pushing past me was ok
2. Is it fine if they aren’t showing all the other signs of join up beyond the ear lock on? Can't say I'm a "join up" expert so not going to answer that. If horses were as simple as a=b it would be easy! There is reading body language, then there is reading body language. I try not to overthink stuff as it comes naturally to me and overthinking it just messes it up, cheesy but "be one with the horse" don't plan out every little thing. Sorry for no real answer.
3. What should I do I ask him to change direction and he just stares at me and won’t move? I chased him out usually, but he wasn’t that responsive on it. Make him move, whatever that means is what you need to do. You asked he needs to listen, ask tell demand.
4. Is there even a point in doing a join up if I only see him around once a week? The entire process exhausted us both, and so at this rate it would replace any riding I do on him (which I enjoy and I’m not so sure about sacrificing that). Can't answer the first part but I don't see a point in doing it at all unless you really want to which it sounds like you don't so....yeah

Don't lunge if the footing is bad and don't lunge if you'd rather ride, the whole point is to do what YOU want (assuming it's appropriate for the horse obviously), especially only a few times a week you should absolutely be focusing on a pleasure perspective as opposed to training goals. Not that you can't have training goals but 2x/week is not a horse "in work".

Natural horsemanship is great, I think all GOOD training is essentially the same at the end of the day, but many people make NH especially into a fad as it attracts a lot of people with limited knowledge due to the "being natural hence good for the horse and we can't hurt the precious horse" mindset. So careful not to get caught up in that part of it.
 
#7 ·
Firstly, I will say I don't agree with 'Join Up' or 'round penning' the way it is generally taught/done. I don't agree with running a horse around until he's tired & 'submits'. I do however, often do something similar, but not so confrontational.

I also teach 'lunging', whether on line or not, as a training exercise. When off lead, I use the same cues as I would with a line. Eg. I don't run in front to slow/stop the horse, but just drop my energy and if need be, quietly get a bit out in front, to 'block' him. To ask him to turn & face me I will 'invite' him in with the lead hand & if necessary put a bit of pressure on his rump. To ask him to turn the other way, pressure on that 'off' eye/shoulder that's now facing me. To go/speed, I put pressure out behind him. I always accept/reward the smallest 'tries' to begin with, and will only ask for the horse to maintain gait, direction, etc gradually, after he's got the basics.

I stuck him in the round pen, and he took off at a fast canter with a good few bucks thrown in for good measure.
If the horse is 'full of beans' I'd just let him do his stuff for a bit, maybe encourage him a bit, but let him get it out of his system first.

Eventually his inner ear locked onto me and stayed locked on, but I never saw any of the other signs. I chased him around for quite a while, and never saw any of the other signs.
If you don't want to chase him until he's exhausted, resigned, given up, then you may never see all the 'proscribed signs'. Think about what you are aiming for in this. What exactly are you wanting to teach him? Are you wanting to teach him to come to you when you invite him in? If he doesn't want to run any more & is paying attention to you(the ear 'locked on'), then that is the moment to ask him in, IMO. You need to give him relevant feedback for *whatever* he gives you that is going to help him learn what you want.

And kept on coming in. Pushing right over me (unlike him) and eventually stopping with his but in my face.
Obviously you need to keep safety in mind - walloping a butt that's in your face might get you kicked! - but that is 'rude' and unwanted behaviour, so I would have shooed him back hard when he *started* to 'push' into my space. *He would also have learned not to do this before I asked him to lunge without a rope tho.

After a while, he started just stopping and staring facing me when I asked him to change directions
Sounds like he's confused there. Wondering why you're chasing him. I'd reinforce that - the first step of turning - by allowing him a few seconds rest, before then asking him to go in the other direction. Once he's good at that, then you can start asking for faster turns/no stopping.

Eventually he would only trot and not canter (he was exhausted and had figured out that the leadrope I had barely hurt even if it did touch him), and I was exhausted.
Sounds like you were doing too much yourself, if you were exhausted too! :) And it sounds like he was also learning that it wasn't worth listening to you either. I'd be aiming for doing the least you can, but making it effective. Eg. he should learn that if he doesn't follow your 'soft' cues, then it will get unpleasant - eg. you need more than a lead rope, if he's learned it's worth ignoring that. You need to make it unpleasant for him to 'ignore' you. But more importantly, you need to make it worth his while to 'do right' - you need to reinforce him, quit continuing to hassle when he does move into a canter when you ask.

4. Is there even a point in doing a join up if I only see him around once a week? The entire process exhausted us both, and so at this rate it would replace any riding I do on him (which I enjoy and I’m not so sure about sacrificing that).
What is it you want him to learn to do by using 'join up'? I'd think about that, and whether you can teach it effectively with that method, or better in another manner, as to whether doing it is worth it.
 
#8 ·
Now I've read other replies... I agree almost completely with the above. I would advise you DON't continue doing what you did. I don't think it is(well, the way I do it) useless for trained horses necessarily though. But you've got to think about what you want him to learn from it exactly, and how best it might work to teach him that. No point just running him ragged & waiting for a bunch of 'signs'. Unless of course, you want him to learn to give those signs when he wants to stop 'work'.

Agree with others that while it can be a useful exercise, as it is 'marketed', it's a bit of a trick, a gimmick. In nature, if a horse is chased by a predator, to the point of exhaustion, or 'chased' in a confined space he cannot escape from, he will naturally eventually give up, hang his head, slow down. THAT is I believe the biggest 'trick' of join up or round penning as it's usually used. Of course old Monty puts it another way - that in the wild, a horse that does something 'wrong' is chased from the herd by the boss mare, and not allowed to return until he has effectively 'said sorry'. I don't believe it works that way when people do it, particularly in an encloser, but it's far closer to the prey/predator model, as the horse a) is not being run off/punished for a 'misdemeanor' b) he can't escape, but continues to be chased even when he's already running away c) he usually doesn't WANT to be with the person, like he needs to be with his herd. At least until he learns that it's easier to 'show the signs' & quit work than it is to stay away.
 
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