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Bits or No bits

This is a discussion on Bits or No bits within the Natural Horsemanship forums, part of the Training Horses category

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        01-28-2014, 02:02 AM
      #11
    Yearling
    This is my terribly abused horse in a snaffle bit. Can't you see him writhing in pain as I mercilessly crank down on his face?


    Here he is standing around in pain after a ride trying to recover from the obvious damage his bit has done.

    I'm sorry for getting dramatic here, but I'm so sick of this whole "bits hurt horses" crap. NO THEY don't. Bad riders hurt horses.
    Saying bits hurt horses is like saying guns kill people, and spoons make you fat
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        01-28-2014, 03:57 AM
      #12
    Weanling
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by madyasmkey    
    HOWEVER, I do still think less contact on a stronger bit rather than permanently pulling a horse on a short bit or bit less is better
    Bits are cruel. They may not cause the moths to bleed because they do a lot of damage underneath to the flesh. A bigger bit that doesn't have to be touched is better. Just think though, what if you fall of on a hack or a trail and your horse bolts. When they stop they'll probably eat some grass, the reins slip and they stand on it, Lucy their head and instead of taking their time to think and take the pressure off by moving their for, they panic and pull against it more. Those situations are when horses get badly hurt. And I don't know whether Western competitions allow bitless, pretty sure they do bit every single British one let's bitless riders compete.

    If you are willing to put the time in to train a horse to ride in a bit so responsively why not spend that time on not putting a bit in their mouths.

    Everyone seems to just read the bit they don't like about my post and then reply but I said all horses are different and work in didn't ways. If a horse leafs well and doesn't evade the head collar then they will ride bitless just as well. The responsive they are on the ground the less you use your lead rope, right? Same goes for riding if you're willing to put the time and effort in to train the with a bit, try putting the same time and effort without a bit.

    Of cause no-one ever will because bits are too strongly placed in the equine world when they shouldn't be. Horses are not designed to have anything but food and water in their mouths.

    I do ride others horses in bits and don't get me wrong, they work well but they would work just as well or better without a bit.

    Also, my horse was just an example, I know many horses I have backed and trained that work better bitless.

    I hadn't really looked up on the straight bar but just from looking at it I'd say it's the kindest, but I don't know much about that.

    Again, all horses are different and given the chance I still think MOST would work much happier without a chunk of metal in their moths. Also, most horses I have known to finish their career in showjumping, barrel racing and other fast working competitions have permanently bruised mouths. Not saying you do that to your house, but people get bruises from leaning on their legs for too long and bits are known, even when not doing anything, to making their tongues go numb and can take hours to get the feel back. Everything about bits are not designed for the comfort of the horse.

    Whether someone chooses to take advantage of the fact they can use pain to control them takes bits into a whole new level of pain. Those who ride in an outline and have contact will make mistakes like being left behind and even if you let the reins slip, that's still going to hurt.

    Again everything is only as painful as you make it but bits make it easier to cause pain.
         
        01-28-2014, 10:36 AM
      #13
    Green Broke
    I caused more pain to my mare riding in a mechanical hack or her rope halter. I don't get the finesse, the speed, or the respect without the bit. I have to yank to get her to do anything, which is pointless. I go for highly sensitive and reactive to my cues, so I give the smallest cue possible before I jack the pressure up. BUT, bitless makes my mare angry and she will throw her head, snake it sideways, etc..whereas with a bit she'll hang her head, cock a leg, and relax.

    Bits do not make it any easier to cause pain. A tope hackamore rubbing the flesh off the horse's poor nose is just as easy.

    IMO, you sound like a child complaining that something hurts. Like others have said, this topic has been beaten to death, more than once. Do a bit more research, because every horse I've trained/retrained/worked with prefers a bit over anything bitless.
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        01-28-2014, 10:39 AM
      #14
    Green Broke
    1..I have fallen off and had them step on the reins. They are familiar enough with pressure they calmly just back up. Guess what happens in the same situation with a bitless bridle? Same thing if the horse knows to move away from pressure.

    2. BITS ARE STRONGLY IN PLACE ON THE EQUINE WORLD BECAUSE UOU HAVE TO HAVE THEM FOR SHOWS. Showing, is a really, really, really big industry. Flat out, you cannot show in bitless bridles! If most horses would work better, please go jump on a 1D barrel horse, a champion working cow horse, etc. and see how that works for you. Sure, maybe trail horses, but once you get into performance horses and showing, you are going to need REFINEMENT of cues. That's what bits give you.

    3. My horse would be irritated as all get out if I was pulling on his whole head, vs. one very small amout of pressure on the bit (which most bits are actually designed with the horses mouth in mind, that's how good bits work and good fitting bits sell the best, nobody makes bits out of random thoughts). My horse works off of 90% leg pressure, I don't have to yank or hardly touch the bit most of the ride. Can you raise the reins in a bitless and your horse be able to tell that he needs to round out? Bits with shanks can do that with very little pressure (still slack in the reins) because they have that leverage.

    4. I have seen people be just as rough with hackamore as bits. None if my horses have EVER had bruised mouths, even if I have had to pally a good amout of pressure (which even bitless people have to do sometimes).
         
        01-28-2014, 10:47 AM
      #15
    Green Broke
    " Again everything is only as painful as you make it but bits make it easier to cause pain."

    I think your last line pretty much sums up everyone's thoughts.

    Yeah, if your pulling, ripping, yanking, balancing off the reins, etc you horse will NO DOUBT cause pain to the horse. That's why a lot of our lesson horses who go well in a side pull are put in a side pull. But let me tell you, sometimes a nice hard yank in the nose isn't any bargain either.

    If your hand are soft and your horse has been properly trained to respond to a bit there should be no pain involved.

    As far as accidents... You really can't factor in the slight possibility of an accident happening to why bits shouldn't be used. For one they can be very painful for a horse to step on a side pull or mechanical hack too.
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        01-28-2014, 10:52 AM
      #16
    Foal
    OP ... first, don't believe everything you see/read on the internet...the "bits are cruel" people are starting there, but most don't even want you to ride a horse--because that is cruel as well. So, keep on the path you are on, and maybe you will not be able to ride your horse in a few years. And, the one guy here in the US that is a "bitless" person, watch him ride his horses without a bit -- they don't stop, turn, or do anything really good. Also, their heads are usually pointed up the whole time.

    If your horse was opening its mouth when you were riding it with a bit, it was YOUR fault. Not the bit's.
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        01-28-2014, 11:20 AM
      #17
    Trained
    Folks need to drop the YouTube infomercials and pay attention to the horses that exist in reality.

    No, not all horses prefer bitless. Mine were ridden bitless for several years, and they prefer bits. They are calmer, more responsive, and yes, happier. Why? Because they WANT to obey their riders, and bits communicate more clearly than bitless. Many people have the same experience.

    Yes, the horse's mouth was designed to hold a bit. Why else would they be born with a gap in their teeth?

    "Bits are cruel. They may not cause the moths to bleed because they do a lot of damage underneath to the flesh."

    That would cause a bruise, and a sore spot. It would cause pain, infection, swelling, and a horse who is terrified of having anything put in its mouth. And all that ignores the reality in which most horses live out their lives.

    "Same goes for riding if you're willing to put the time and effort in to train the with a bit, try putting the same time and effort without a bit."

    Again, many of us have. Mia did 3 years bitless before she ever had a bit in her mouth. She had a year with snaffles before I put a curb in her mouth. And she is a much better horse after a year in a curb bit. Not just for riding, either - she has learned the world is not as scary as she thought, and she is a calmer horse while just hanging around in her corral.

    " bits are known, even when not doing anything, to making their tongues go numb and can take hours to get the feel back"

    Really? Any proof? Any? Not from YouTube, but from scientists who have studied how bits act? My evil & cruel curb bits don't do that to Mia. If bits numbed a horse's mouth, just by being in it, then they would have no effect on a horse after a few hours. Yet they do. I can ride my horse for several hours, then direct her with my pinkie finger on the reins, or by taking some of the slack out of the reins. If she can feel the weight of my pinkie on the reins after a few hours, in what sense is her mouth 'numb'?

    "Those who ride in an outline and have contact will make mistakes like being left behind and even if you let the reins slip, that's still going to hurt. "

    I'm not a fan of outlines, frames, or riding with contact...but I don't ignore the millions of horses ridden English style successfully to claim it causes them pain. Frankly, I blame MY HANDS instead of assuming others are causing pain. I simply do not ride well with constant contact, so I do not. I let the weight of the reins, amplified by the leverage of the shanks, create all the 'contact' I need for my purposes. But I do not use my failure as justification to accuse others of causing pain...

    "...bits make it easier to cause pain..."

    Some probably do. However, a mechanical hackamore that is not properly adjusted can break a horse's nose. My rope sidepull once removed a bunch of hair from Mia's face, and I'd bet THAT wasn't a fun feeling for her. The crossunder style I tried on her caused her to panic, because it squeezed her head and didn't give quick relief the way a bit will.

    And if your horse bolts in blind panic in the desert, heedless of any highways coming up or drop offs or large rocks, which is more likely to save her life - a sidepull or a curb bit? Been there, done that, and the answer is a curb bit. A mechanical hackamore might also work, but there is nothing about a mechanical hackamore that makes it gentler than a curb bit unless your horse has a mouth injury.

    Some horses do great bitless, and that is fine. A lot depends on the horse and the goals of the rider. For putzing around on a horse like Trooper (our Appy), a sidepull halter is fine. Mia does better in a curb even when just putzing around. But if a bit caused Mia pain, she would fight. She doesn't.
         
        01-28-2014, 11:21 AM
      #18
    Weanling
    My horse goes much better in a bit then anything bitless. It takes much less pressure to get my point across then hauling on him in a rope halter etc. I bet if you could ask him he would tell you the same. Although at the same time I'm sure he would tell you ha would much rather hang out in his paddock all day not being ridden at all and eating.

    "Horses are not designed to have anything but food and water in their mouths."

    And as far as this goes horses are also not designed to carry a saddle and rider on their back, wear shoes, live in a barn or paddock etc. For that matter even have contact with people considering they are a prey animal.

    If the OP is so concerned with what's humane and what's not maybe they should set their horses free to live as nature intended, farting glitter and chasing rainbows. Me? I'm going to use my horse as I see fit ;)
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        01-28-2014, 11:30 AM
      #19
    Green Broke
    I'll say the exact same things that I said on a nearly identical thread that was made about a week ago.

    Firstly, many horse show associations (particularly in the English world) require that your horse have a bit, and usually they are particular about the type. That's why many of us don't "spend the time" trying to train our horses bitless.

    Secondly, the "not natural" part? Really? When did wearing leather equipment and carrying a 100+ lb rider become part of their physiology? You'll have to remind me.

    I ride my horse in a gag. I KNOW how to ride, and how not to be harsh on his mouth. He is happy as a little clam, and has no issues with it.

    If YOU want to ride without a bit, cool. Do it, have fun, enjoy your horse. These preachy threads are a little bit of a turnoff, though...
         
        01-28-2014, 11:54 AM
      #20
    Trained
    Humans were not designed to wear clothes, and yet I don't see many people complaining about that...
         

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