The Horse Forum banner
Status
Not open for further replies.

Bits Vs Bitless

24K views 260 replies 27 participants last post by  Smilie 
#1 ·
As someone who is passionate about ethical equitation I am amazed at the lack of robust scientific evidence available to support both sides of the bit Vs bitless debate that is rife amongst the horsey folks. Do you think more research is needed? and if sufficient evidence for better welfare was given do you think the big competition associations (FEI) should adapt the rules so that bitless was allowed in Dressage?
 
#2 ·
Not all evidence requires a science experiment. For example, an experiment was done to see how much weight a horse can carry without pain. They came up with the answer of 20% of the horse's weight. Yet if I showed you an emaciated horse, you would know without thinking that the horse wasn't ready to carry 5% of its weight. And a lot of big guys have ridden horses at 30% for years without harming the horse, so why is a study needed? There are a huge number of variables involved and no scientific study can reduce those variables down to one.

There are a lot of horses who have been ridden with bits for decades without any problems. If someone did a study and concluded bits are always harmful - see Dr Cook - then most of us would reject it. The horses I've owned are ample evidence that horses can be ridden in bits and not harmed by them nor resent them.

Lots of people who use bits regularly also use bitless regularly. Within the last two weeks, I've ridden the same horse in a rope sidepull and the dreaded, awful Tom Thumb Curb Bit - and he did fine in both, for what we were doing. And most of the time I ride him in a single joint O-ring, which is very different from the TT and rope sidepull.

I don't compete in dressage, but I figure anyone who wants to compete in dressage bitless is welcome to start a Bitless Dressage Society and hold competitions - kind of like what Western Dressage has done. If enough people are interested, it will become a sport. I suspect, however, you would see a lot of horses trained in a bit and then ridden bitless in the competition, which would defeat the purpose...wouldn't it?
 
#3 ·
I don't encounter a lot of debate on bitless verses bitted. I guess each person's experience of "the horse world' varies a lot , depending on where they live.

I would love to see bitless allowed. sadly, it's doubtful they would be competitive. the judges favor certain head positions that are hard to achieve without a bit. not saying it's correct, but it's the current preference in competition.
 
#4 ·
This rider-horse team looks pretty good doing it but, I would imagine it was a ton of work!



Maybe someday they will have a special class for it...
 
#5 ·
I think there have been many posts, topics, info available, on this subject, just like barefoot versus shod, and it comes down to correct application of either, making your choice on the hrose, your own comfort level, ability, ect, and not being a 'Nazi', either way
For instance, all bittless is not the same, any more then all bits. Some bittless devises, have the potential of being way more severe then a bit, esp in the wrong hands, same as abit.
Thus, before you even entertain this subject, are you talking of a snaffle versus a bosal or direct bittless devise, or lumping mechanical hackamores into the same class as direct action bittless devises?
Then, there is the education of both the horse and the rider.
A horse, ridden correctly, trained correctly, using bits, by a perosn with feel , is going to achieve a higher degree of finesse and communication, then riding bitlless
On the other hand, a horse not highly trained, esp ridden by a novice, is going to have less potencial damage, ridden bittless
Western, where a finished horse,esp, is used to be rewarded, when he is going correctly, by a loose rein,,just packing that bit, is much happier, and does not like the fact that most bittless devises, esp those cross under jobs, never give that clear release
Can't really comment on dressage, where a horse is always ridden on contact, but certainly western, trained correctly, you do not depend on that head set due to bit contact, as a well trained hrose maintains that form on a loose rein
Bittless, western, is also considered a 'elementary training stage, and by the time a horse is 5, he is expected to have the education to be ridden one handed, and on a loose rein, and a curb bit is designed for that, so he 'graduates form that bittless or snaffle stage, but can go back to it ant time, as that 'graduation' is based on education, correctly, and never on control.
I don't know if dressage has a similar ideology , based on horses needing to be shown in a bit, as the horse is always ridden with some contact, and two handed
 
#25 ·
For instance, all bittless is not the same, any more then all bits. Some bittless devises, have the potential of being way more severe then a bit, esp in the wrong hands, same as abit.
This.

Look up the damage a mechanical hackamore can do to a horse. Don't do it right after lunch!

Bitless is not superior. You are just moving the pressure point from the bars of the mouth to the nasal bone. That bone becomes very thin in the last few inches.

Correct use of a bit should not be in constant contact. Yes, I'm taking a shot at certain disciplines on that.

If you rode certain hackamores the same way you would have a visible indentation across the horse's muzzle.

All that said, you aren't going to convince people making money that they are wrong unless you can beat them.
 
#6 ·
I like that video Reining posted, of that dressage horse, doing flying changes, without that head held in tight contact-compares to a western riding horse doing flying changes on a loose rein, even if the horse is not expected to keep 'classic frame.

Here is a horse doing extreme trail brildeless. The main point being, these demos are often the end result of a horse first being trained with 'tradition equipment, versus having been trained that way from day one
When that horse is taught., through using bits, legs and seat correctly, one can then drop that bridle and ride that hrose off of those remaining aids
It is NOT the end result of having trained that horse, using only a neck rope!

 
#8 · (Edited)
In this one, Stacy has a sAddle, but , again, nothing on the head, which shows it is not want is on e the head, but the conditioned response, that allows you to drop that bridle, and ride off of seat and legs, and has nothing to do with what can be achieved, bittless, alone
This shows what can be achieved, not just riding with the same cadence, in a straight line doing flying changes, but circles, change in speed, spins, sliding stops, and with nothing on the head.
I know darn well that Stacy trains with traditional equipement, and shows that way, in regular reining classes

 
#9 ·
You guys are awesome. I have been shot down trying to have similar conversations before and you guys have very eloquently put your points of view across in a way that has been enlightening.
I am and have used both and completely agree it is all in the understanding of the rider or trainer, it all comes back to learning theory and the application of light aids and consistent timing.
 
#12 ·
It has been an interesting subject to me. I can see no logical reason to not allow bitless in dressage. Either the horse can score well or they can't. I can think of some illogical (to me) reasons to not allow bitless in dressage, one of which is that contact with the mouth and lower jaw through a bit is part of some revered principles that people in dressage believe in sincerely whether they are supported by science or not. They truly believe that there is a "ring of muscles" that require the rider to recycle the energy of the hind end through the bit, and they think the horse requires this to attain true collection or extension. So the ideals and theories of dressage would have to change before bitless horses would place.

People see videos like this one and are inspired. But there are many factors that might make this scenario possible.

I just looked up the beach this girl is galloping on, and it is 0.7 miles (1.2 kilometers) long. I used to take my Arab and gallop her up a hill like this, that had a natural beginning and stopping place. Once she knew the routine, I'd give her a loose rein and she'd gallop full out and stop on her own at the end. Even when racing other horses. I'm not minimizing the fact that this girl rides bridleless, it's pretty cool. But we currently gallop on a 16 mile (25.7 kilometer) long beach. It has dogs, people, hidden hazards, cars, elk. My current riding partner is a TB we've clocked at well over 40 mph. After double the distance of this girl's entire beach, our horses are in full stride. At the end of our run, we do not have a loose rein, we have contact and are asking the horses to drop to a canter. Otherwise they would sometimes gallop on unsafely. I ride my mare in an english hackamore, my friend uses a simple snaffle. If we were more timid we could bit up, but we would be foolish to try to ride either horse in a sidepull in these circumstances.
 
#10 ·
I do think more scientific studies would be great! I'm not at all amazed that good studies are rare though, be that on bits or otherwise(could say the same about the lack of 'good science' on both sides re shoes), because it costs money and is not in most people's interest - particularly the makers of bits! If there were more 'evidence' that may well help sway some authorities, but changes there are far more down to popular opinion - power of the people, than hard science. Personally, the only reason I can think of to ban bitless in dressage comps is because those who use bits are frightened of being shown up by those who don't. ;-)
 
#252 ·
I'm not going to bother wading through pages of comments pro or con :D. It's one of those hot topics that get bantered around without anything positive to really come of it. Unlike things like the issues with shoes (e.g. reduces blood flow in the feet and lower legs, etc...which science has already proven) or weight carried (which gives the scientific results on the biochemical effects, explaining the science behind "why" long distance riders work to keep the weight carried down since we already knew from experience that it would have negative results before the ride was finished). In the case of bits it's hard to make a case :D. I ride without a bit, but that's no reflection on bits being bad. The bit is a tool. Just like a hammer. If a person beats their thumb bloody while trying to drive a nail into a board that doesn't make the hammer bad. Just means that person shouldn't be allowed to use one :rofl:.

I do like loosie's comment though. Especially about the show industry. While I couldn't care less about showing it seems ridiculous to not allow someone to show without a bit. It has been demonstrated that a horse and rider can do everything required without a bit which does lead one to question what objection they can still have (other than since their horse can't do it no one should be allowed, they won stock in bit makers or "my brother-in-law sells bits" :rofl:).

Anyway, bits are not inherently bad just because someone can't use it properly. I don't use them because over 40 years ago I realized that I don't need them, but that didn't suddenly make them bad for the people who do. It's a tool. It's a poor worker who blames the tool.
 
  • Like
Reactions: loosie and jgnmoose
#13 ·
I was giving a presentation on learning theory the other day and one of my main points was how dressage needs to be updated to make it more ethical. That they penalise not only riding with less tack (bits or nosebands) but also prevent people using positive reinforcement through the use of their voice. I'm hoping that it changes soon.
 
#15 ·
Dressage does not allow bit less riding because it is about progressive training and a horse who does not work into the bit is not fully trained. You can't have the same connection as a bitless.

For others like hunters, beyond tradition there is no need to use a bit really. You're not supposed to be in their faces anyway.
 
#22 ·
Dressage does not allow bit less riding because it is about progressive training and a horse who does not work into the bit is not fully trained. You can't have the same connection as a bitless.
Aside from 'headset' which is very often judged wrongly anyway, with people still getting rewarded for 'overbent' heads & nothing to do with the whole horse's carriage... there is absolutely no justification about the attitude that 'you can't have the same connection bitless'. If it were truly about 'progressive training'(As I agree it WAS supposed to be about, is in theory/ideal...), then they'd welcome the people who could train their horses 'progressively' not to need compulsive devices to make their horses perform!
 
#16 ·
The current ruling in dressage has nothing to do with how well the horse can perform without a bit, it dates back to the original conception of what dressage was about - training tests. If a horse wasn't able to work correctly in a bit then it wasn't considered fully trained
Part of the horse's training was how it progressed through the early stages of breaking to being ridden in a bit - and being compliant and responsive to the bit. That evolved into the dressage of today where the horses are moving onwards from accepting a snaffle bit through to accepting a double bridle
I'd rather see more pressure put on the way flash straps are used before starting a move to allow bitless bridles in the same competition as bitted one's
We ride all of our horses bitless at times, one of them most of the time so I've no bias either way
 
#17 ·
Sorry Apuetso - our posts crossed!!
I forgot the voice thing - the use of the voice is something again that your supposed to phase out as you progress through the training line - you will hear show jumpers using verbal cues occasionally but they have no place in the showing ring or a dressage ring.
 
#18 ·
Some odds and ends picked up from instrumented looks at bits...not sure I'd call them studies:



Rein Check
On contact, rein tension, and the myth of lightness

By Hilary M. Clayton, BVMS, PhD, DACVSMR, MRCVS

"...As dressage riders and trainers, we value the quality of lightness; but when I measure the amount of tension associated with a contact that feels correct to an experienced rider, it oscillates from about one pound to five pounds. Although five pounds sounds like a lot of tension to hold in your hand, it really doesn’t feel like a lot of weight in a dynamic situation. Some dressage texts lead us to believe that fully trained horses should take only a few ounces of contact with the rein. However, this advice is highly subjective and is not supported by actual measurements. Moreover, if rein tension is a consequence of the natural movements of the horse’s relaxed neck, then the mechanics of the motion dictate the amount of tension...

...It is difficult for a rider to correctly assess the amount of tension in the reins when the contact is dynamic and tension is constantly changing. Our goal as riders should be to offer our horses a consistent and predictable contact that allows them to seek the bit confidently and, in so doing, to use their entire bodies correctly..."

http://cvm.msu.edu/research/researc...usdf-connection/copy_of_ReinCheckJune2011.pdf



"When tension was applied to the reins, the mouthpiece pressed more deeply into the tongue, thereby causing the joint to move away from the palate. Single-jointed bits are usually described as having a nutcracker-like action, the implication being that when tension is applied to the reins, the angle between the arms of the mouthpiece closes and the joint is pushed toward the palate. In our study, any nutcracker effect that tended to push the joint toward the palate was more than offset by indentation of the tongue."

- Bitting: The Inside Story by Hilary M. Clayton, BVMS, PHD, MRCVS

http://horseproblems.com.au/Bits/USDF_Dec05.pdf

A gag bit in use:



Now - take that information, and try to tell someone that they ride with pounds of pressure in the horse's mouth (slack reins seem to result in about 1-2 lbs) and not ounces. When I write something like "If you apply 5 lbs of pressure..." - I darn near get blasted off the Internet. How DARE I suggest riders use more than 3-4 ounces! I must be an incredible ham-fist and an abusive rider!

While I would enjoy reading more studies on bits and bitting, I'm not sure it would change how anyone rides.

I would also like to see more studies done on bitless riding. The only one I've seen that wasn't done by someone selling bitless bridles was done by a dressage enthusiast, but I'd love to see some pressure readings on bitless designs:

"Early studies on one type of bitless bridle, on the other hand, showed that the pressure on the nose, under the chin, and on the poll is quite high, Clayton added. Although this research is still in its early stages, Clayton said she isn't convinced the bitless bridle is more humane.

"Some people are under the impression that if you take the bit out of the horse's mouth, then you solve a lot of problems--that the bit is a source of pain," she said. "I would caution you that taking the bit away and simply putting pressure on the horse's nose may not be a cure-all."

Even so, the bitless bridle might be a "useful alternative" for horses that are unable to wear a bit, such as those with a lacerated tongue, she said.

Researcher Evaluates Bit, Rein Interaction with Equine Mouth

Researcher Evaluates Bit, Rein Interaction with Equine Mouth | TheHorse.com

I'll repeat this for emphasis from the same person: "Our goal as riders should be to offer our horses a consistent and predictable contact that allows them to seek the bit confidently and, in so doing, to use their entire bodies correctly..." If someone believes a horse needs to have a bit to "use their entire body properly", then maybe they need to stop doing research and go watch some horses move. A person with a bias like that would be no more impartial than someone selling bitless bridles.
 
#19 · (Edited)
Tradition is part of many disciplines, and if you don't like the rules, then don't show there, or work from within the organization to implement rule changes
Working cowhorse training, follows Vaquero tradition, in creating a Spade bit horse
Western riding 'tradition', far as showing, expects horse 5 and over, to be ridden in a curb, one handed, and again, if you just trail ride, does not affect you
That expectations indicates advanced training to me, and when I see a western hrose that needs to be ridden with two hands, again, shows lack of training, to me and many other western horsemen

Reining, also follows the same rules, far as showing in regular NRHA classes, in that a jr horse can be ridden in either a bosal or a snaffle,biut a senior horse must be shown one handed in a curb, and this is not due to that curb granting more control, ect, but the simple fact it is way, way, way easier to show a horse with two hands, then to show him compeltely off of that indirect rein, and a horse 5 and over, is expected to have that enducation.

The western curb was developed to facilitate riding with one hand, as it is better suited for that, then a snaffle, and "traditionally', the reason for this, was to keep the other hand free for roping, ect. It is also why, most western show people ride with their left hand, as most are right handed, thus leaving that right hand free.. I started out self taught, thus ride with my right hand on the reins, which is not a DQ, but rather not 'typical', and does have some disadvanatges , working trail obstacles, which are set up to be ridden left handed. I thus have to change hands at some obstacles, then change back, before leaving obstacle, as rules state you have to ride from that obstacle, using same hand you rode up to it


Free style reining, is a non pointed NRHA class, thus allows riders great degree of what bit,if any, or two hands versus one hand
You will thus see competitors in freestyle reining, going from one extreme to the other-that of using two hands on a curb,, to using nothing at all on the head, as per Stacy Westfall
Thus, my only question far as dressage, can not that free style also allow deviation from 'tradition ?
Sometimes 'green horse western classes are added to regular shows, where even a senior western horse can be shown with two hands. However, these classes do not earn regular points

Thus, my slant on bittless, versus bit, is based on western expectations, where a senior horse is expected to be able to be ridden one handed, and a curb is the best choice for that
 
#20 ·
There would have to be a special Freestyle that allowed for bitless I think Smilie - because the current Freestyle is still judged under the same rules as a regular test where correct acceptance of the bit is part of the test.
I think it makes more sense to push for new classes for bitless horses than to try to integrate bitless in to the existing classes
 
#23 ·
Loosie, do you know of one horse, showing upper level movement, that did not first have some basic training in a bit?
Most horses at that level, where you drop the bridle,ride that horse with just a neck rope-whatever, were first trained using a bit
Many horses are started bittless, then as they progress, are bitted, as a bit will , in the right hands, create way more finesse then bittless, due to increased communication
Many people that advocate bittless, have no idea as to how to correctly educate the mouth of ahrose, to a bit, , thus get the idea that the horse is happier bittless, when in fact, he lacks the education far as how to respond to a bit correctly,or is ridden by someone, perhaps better off riding bittless, due to poor hands and feel
I have also seen some bittless devises, I would never use on a horse
It is pretty difficult, to judge a class where the judge has to not only judge horse against horse, but make adjustments, far as what that horse is ridden with
I can only talk western, but in a class, where senior horses are being ridden one handed, on a loose rein, keeping topline , collection off of seat and legs alone, very difficult tot hen throw in horses being ridden with two hands, on a bittless brilde and with contact. It si the bittless horse that then has the advantage, as anyone that has even shown a horse one handed, on a loose rein, knows!
 
#24 ·
I can only talk western, but in a class, where senior horses are being ridden one handed, on a loose rein, keeping topline , collection off of seat and legs alone, very difficult tot hen throw in horses being ridden with two hands, on a bittless brilde and with contact. It si the bittless horse that then has the advantage, as anyone that has even shown a horse one handed, on a loose rein, knows!
I agree with @loosie. Wouldn't then the next progression of a trained horse be to be ridden one handed, on a loose rein in a bitless bridle? Why is the curb bit considered the top level of training, when a horse that could do the same thing one handed bitless would be even more trained than that?

Possibly it might be related to the yanking I see before classes and when the judge isn't looking, to correct the horse with the curb into the position that is desired.

Why wouldn't the next progression of "self carriage" in dressage be that the curb bit could be removed and the horse could carry himself and respond to cues without the aid of the bit?

I have seen horses doing upper level dressage movements that were trained in hand rather than with a bit and rider, and this is also how the Lippizaners are traditionally trained. I have a couple of modern books on this method, which is usually done using a cavesson and long reins.

I believe that some have also mentioned that western trainers are known to teach the ultra slow movement that western people call collection by training from the ground, following a slow moving vehicle in hand. So I would imagine the horse could be introduced to this way of going without the bit and learn to respond to direct reining cues with a sidepull or bosal, and neck reining cues on a loose rein later on. I don't believe the bit is a necessary part of the equation, but rather a traditional approach.
 
#26 ·
Wasn't there a picture posted on another thread of a lipper being trained? And some got all pissy about it because the horse looked ticked off, and gawd forbid there was a whip involved! No bit, in hand, but a whip. Eeeeeeek!

And let's get real. Most of us on this forum do not have the skill set to train and show a horse at the upper levels of any discipline with a bit, let alone bitless.

As stated above, bits are not the issue, how they are used is. Bitless is not the next coming of Christ. And bitless devices can be cruel with a clueless person.
 
#31 ·
As stated above, bits are not the issue, how they are used is.
Yup, 99% agree with you. I do think that there is enough info about other aspects of bit effects - digestive & breathing for eg - and I have attended a dissection where we got to feel how tongue pressure actually physically effected the hind end of a horse... to *question* other effects though, and I also think that, mechanical leverage devices aside, in bad hands/an uneducated horse, bits do cause more pain & potential damage than bitless/a halter. Therefore I think bits should generally be left for the 'refinement' phase of riding, when the horse no longer needs actual physical pressure to respond, **and when the rider is skilled enough to use the reins well.
 
#29 ·
Loosie

'.And I agree with the person - Jaydee? - that said more emphasis needs to be put on the use of tight nose bands - if necessity of a bit is about 'acceptance' of the bit, how the hell can you even have a clue about that, when the horse's mouth is tied shut?? If that is the reason that bitless isn't allowed, then nosebands certainly shouldn't be either!

I am not going to get into English versus western, beyond telling you that nosebands are not even legal, western, let alone tight ones, and that a Dr Cook bittless bridle has more pressure then a western head stall!
Again, western, you can't use a nose band or cavasson of any kind, thus I don't train with one either. Thus, my horses work with a quiet, closed and relaxed mouth, because they truly are relaxed!
It is also a fact, that using a bit correctly, I can give complete release, while many bittless bridles never give that complete release, as in those cross under jobs. There are some bones and nerves, covered by not much, under those jaws
Some horses do prefer a bit, used correctly, over those bittless bridles that never completely release pressure
Like I said before, ride bittless if you want to, advocate for bittless classes of your choice, but don't expect to create an /anything goes, for established disciplines
 
#32 ·
I am not going to get into English versus western, beyond telling you that nosebands are not even legal, western,
I thought we were discussing dressage comps.

and that a Dr Cook bittless bridle has more pressure then a western head stall!
... many bittless bridles never give that complete release, as in those cross under jobs.
Yep, many, including myself have already said that bitless doesn't necessarily equate to 'good'. I agree with you that the crossunder ones aren't nice...
 
#34 ·
I wonder how competitive a bitless horse would be in upper level dressage against one that's ridden in the conventional double bridle?
Things like the rules on btv should be stricter but you can get a horse btv just as easily bitless as you can with a bit so I don't think it would solve that problem
 
#35 ·
“I should like balls infinitely better,' she replied, 'if they were carried on in a different manner; but there is something insufferably tedious in the usual process of such a meeting. It would surely be much more rational if conversation instead of dancing were made the order of they day.'

'Much more rational, my dear Caroline, I dare say, but it would not be near so much like a ball.”

-- Jane Austen, Pride and Prejudice (1813)
.
Traditional dressage without a bit may be like Hunt Seat without the jumps, or Western Pleasure done fast. If part of the point of dressage is how well a horse responds to a double bridle, then bitless dressage...might be much more rational, but not near so much like dressage.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
You have insufficient privileges to reply here.
Top